50 amp panel running (2 )5500 elements

SSBrew - 728
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augiedoggy said:
So with 80 amps and two separate control panels I assume your running an actual nano/micro brewery? Otherwise why so much overkill?
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Why not have 10,000 watts of power in a 30 gallon BK, and a separate 5,500 watt HTL. I'm a licensed electrician and prefer overkill, too nuisance tripping. This also allows for offsite brewing with a smaller 7,500 watt generator and a propane tank hooked to my BK. Having (2) separate panels, to me was a "No Brainer" I really didn't want two separate 240v circuits in the same enclosure and by having my BK panel, next to my BK I have easy access to it for easy heat reduction in case of boil over. It's just like my Beloved SS brewtech mashtun, it may be overkill, but it's my overkill and it works for me. I don't need some shiny Stainless steel panel with 3 PID's and 2 timers, a buzzer and key switch to brew my beer.
 
augiedoggy said:
Not really... When would a person need to have the BK and HLT going at the same time even with herms? Unless your maybe using your boil kettle as a hlt while your tiring your hlt down as a herms?
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Easily, I heat my strike water in my BK as my HLT is heating up. Heating strike water for the MT with a Herms coil can take a while, so heating my strike water with my BK is way faster and more efficient. With having my system capable of running all three elements at once, I can start heating my runoff up, while finishing up sparging, thus reducing time needed to brew.
 
Esmitee said:
Hey Doug, thank you, yes your right, I do have a 50amp breaker available, but at least 1 thing I did know, is I couldn't connect to the 50 amp with the 60amp spa panel and have 60amps available. I got this brand new 60amp spa panel for $70.00 delivered to my door. I should have thought of it before to get the 60 amp because, the 50 amp breaker is from a hot tub that is non existent anymore. So I figured I'd use it. So for $10-15 bucks I new I would have to replace the 50, with a 60 amp breaker. Still, a great deal, and I could do what I set forth to do. The hot tub was also like close to 100 feet away, so I'm pretty sure I can use the cable with this 60amp panel. I think it may be 4g, or at least 6g. I will brew no more than 30 feet or less from my house panel. If it's 6g, will that be ok?
Click to expand...


As I understand it, you have an extra 50amp breaker on your main box and existing wire you want to use to wire the 60 amp GFCI protected spa panel off of this breaker. The wire is 6 gauge wire. You want to know if it is OK to use this. Yes it is. Not only is that OK, but it is also OK to swap out the 50amp breaker for a 60amp one. Both 50amp and 60amp circuits use 6ga wire (30amp uses 10ga wire, 4ga is used for 80amp circuits).

Running your panel off the 50amp breaker is still just fine. Since the wire gauge is correct you will not overheat it. You still won't be able to pull more than 50 amps without tripping the 50 amp breaker in the box. But, that is OK. You would never trip the 60 amp spa panel breaker for an overload. In this case the primary purpose of the spa panel is for the GFCI protection on your brewery circuit. If you do leave the 50amp breaker in, you should write on the Spa Panel that it is wired for 50amps.

Lots of people, myself included, use 50amp spa panels on 30amp breaker circuits. We are just aware that the purpose of them is for the GFCI protection.

If it was me, I would go ahead and swap out the 50amp breaker for a 60 amp one and take full advantage of the spa sub-panel. As you said, it is only $10-$15 and your wiring already supports it.

According to the box picture you can also add 2 additional breakers for separate 120v circuits hanging off the sub-panel. These may come in handy in your brewery area, when you aren't brewing. Be aware that they won't be GFCI protected unless you use GFCI outlets. The 60amp GFCI breaker only protects the single circuit, not the whole panel. They will also fall under the limit of the circuit breaker on the main panel.

My 50amp panel, wired for 30amps (with 10ga wire), also has room for additional circuits. I have wired 2 circuits with standard GFCI outlets with additional 20amp L5-20 twist lock outlets wired off them. They do come in handy.
 
augiedoggy said:
Not really... When would a person need to have the BK and HLT going at the same time even with herms? Unless your maybe using your boil kettle as a hlt while your tiring your hlt down as a herms?
Click to expand...

My controller 3 has separate kettle outlets. One 120v PID for RIMS, a 120v/240v switchable circuit PID for HLT/Boil and a 240v circuit for a 9500W High Power SCR Electronic Volt Regulator Speed Controller. All of them could be used at the same time (which would definitely blow the 30a breaker). I have run both the HLT/Boil and Regulator circuits at the same time to do separate boils after splitting a 10 gallon batch in two. I turn the hlt/boil circuit to 120v and add a 120v heat stick to that kettle from another circuit in my brewing area. I could probably run both at 240v with 4500w elements, if I dialed down the power and watched my ammeter, but I don't. This would also probably be the case, once they reached boiling. You don't need full power to keep a boil going.
 
Crazyeyes said:
Easily, I heat my strike water in my BK as my HLT is heating up. Heating strike water for the MT with a Herms coil can take a while, so heating my strike water with my BK is way faster and more efficient. With having my system capable of running all three elements at once, I can start heating my runoff up, while finishing up sparging, thus reducing time needed to brew.
Click to expand...

Yea Man, that's exactly how and why, I want to use this system I'm going to build. It kinda seems that some peeps are kinda against the higher power?
I don't know of any good reason for that. But hey, to each their own. I been using my propane herms system, by using the BK to heat up the strike water as I heated the HLT. If I didn't, I'd have a hell of a wait. Actually, I didn't use the BK to heat the strike water the 1st time I used the coil......DUH. That taught me lol.
If I didn't have the 50 amp circuit available and only a 30amp, I would have just used the 30. It still would have been better than using the propane outside like I have been for years.
 
BitterSweetBrews said:
As I understand it, you have an extra 50amp breaker on your main box and existing wire you want to use to wire the 60 amp GFCI protected spa panel off of this breaker. The wire is 6 gauge wire. You want to know if it is OK to use this. Yes it is. Not only is that OK, but it is also OK to swap out the 50amp breaker for a 60amp one. Both 50amp and 60amp circuits use 6ga wire (30amp uses 10ga wire, 4ga is used for 80amp circuits).

Running your panel off the 50amp breaker is still just fine. Since the wire gauge is correct you will not overheat it. You still won't be able to pull more than 50 amps without tripping the 50 amp breaker in the box. But, that is OK. You would never trip the 60 amp spa panel breaker for an overload. In this case the primary purpose of the spa panel is for the GFCI protection on your brewery circuit. If you do leave the 50amp breaker in, you should write on the Spa Panel that it is wired for 50amps.

Lots of people, myself included, use 50amp spa panels on 30amp breaker circuits. We are just aware that the purpose of them is for the GFCI protection.

If it was me, I would go ahead and swap out the 50amp breaker for a 60 amp one and take full advantage of the spa sub-panel. As you said, it is only $10-$15 and your wiring already supports it.

According to the box picture you can also add 2 additional breakers for separate 120v circuits hanging off the sub-panel. These may come in handy in your brewery area, when you aren't brewing. Be aware that they won't be GFCI protected unless you use GFCI outlets. The 60amp GFCI breaker only protects the single circuit, not the whole panel. They will also fall under the limit of the circuit breaker on the main panel.

My 50amp panel, wired for 30amps (with 10ga wire), also has room for additional circuits. I have wired 2 circuits with standard GFCI outlets with additional 20amp L5-20 twist lock outlets wired off them. They do come in handy.
Click to expand...

Hey Tim, thanks for your information. I am going to swap out the 50amp breaker for the 60amp. I already have it. I have not yet ran the cabling to the area I will be brewing in because, I have to still remove and relocate it carefully. It's about a 90 - 100' run of the 6 awg cable. I have not priced it out, But I'm sure I'd have heart failure if I had to go buy it lol. 90% of it is inside, so it's in great condition. I just may add a circuit or 2 like you suggested. You can never have to many outlets!
Btw, I have watched your videos on YouTube. I like how you don't speed talk and skim over everything so fast like many others do. They try to give the viewer excessive, imperent info, I guess just for FILLER. You take your time and don't whirl that camera around like a blur so people can't understand because it's moving way to fast.
Thanks
 
I'm ready to start the build. I got a great used SS box from a renovation job I just did. It's 17"× 22" X 7 1/2" . The only thing is, it's not hinged. Not a big deal to me. I could hinge it, but I don't really think it's a necessity to me. It has a large hole in the top right corner. But I solved that problem by using the E stop to cover it up. It seemed like a natural place for it anyway.
This box seemed huge to me at 1st, but when I was laying out my design, I was running out of real estate fast. I guess you could squeeze this design in a smaller box, but all the research I've done on here indicates that "A bigger box is better". I can see why. So, can you guys have a look and let me know what you think?
Any feedback is welcome. I think I covered all bases, but maybe not. I probably missed the obvious. Lol. The only things I think I may need, is an "element power on" switch, and a "pid selector switch" I don't think in my set up, that's required.
I thought in lieu of the above, the interlock would do the same thing? I could be wrong. I think the wiring for this should be pretty straight forward because, this is how I envision the use of It.
When the keyed switch is turned on, all the pids will be powered on and be working as they should, BUT, NO power will be available to either of the 2 heater elements, or the 2 PUMPS, untill I turn either the HLT, BK, or Both "ELEMENT ON/OFF" switches to the ON position. If any of those switches are in the ON position, The panel should NOT power on. Pretty simple I think.
I thought that the safety interlock circuit will prevent the powering up of the panel if any of the 2 heating element switches ***OR PUMPS*** are left in the ON position.
And each pid has an alarm switch on/off , and a indicating light. That's pretty much it.


All red caps are lights
All black caps are switches
The rest should be obvious.
Let me know what you think please

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I have almost all the parts needed to get started.......I hope. I still have some I'm waiting on, won't be in for another 2 weeks....CHINA, ya know lol

I'd like to start drilling and placing all the parts to get to wiring it up. I have to make sure everything is a go. Don't want to screw up the box.!


[1] Red Mushroom Cap 1NO 1NC DPST Emergency Stop Push Button Switch AC 660V 10A CP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-Mushroo...sh-Button-Switch-AC-660V-10A-CP-/331918836295

[12] 110V and 220V Lights. I have (2) yellow 220V lights for the heater elements "ON"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-CAO-Sale-...C-DC-AD-/141975562705?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

[1] Keyed Switch

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/22mm-2-P...220082?hash=item25c2934032:g:wa8AAOSwU-pXvECn

[5] Fuse Holders, for pids and pumps

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182510343983?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

[1] Alram/Buzzer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-LED-Fla...Buzzer-12-24-110-220V-AD16-22SM-/222318037880

[2] 30amp contactors 120V coil, [1] for each element

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...hvtargid=kwd-92790493098&ref=pd_sl_we368ffe_b

[2] 30amp, 4 circuit terminal blocks, [1] for 220v Line 1 BLACK [1] for 220V Line 2 Red

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WN1FY6X6QVEWJ0P3F9JP

[2] 32amp circuit breakers, [1] for each element

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-6000A...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WN1FY6X6QVEWJ0P3F9JP

[1] 10 amp circuit breaker, for 110v circuit

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JUR34Y2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[1] 63amp Din contactor, for main power

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFEDF54/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I350UVX075VW01&colid=12VJWCRD0JH21

[10] 2 position Selector switches 10A-2-Position-NO-NC-Maintained-4-Terminal-Rotary-Selector-Switch-XB2-BD21C-CA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-2-Posit...ry-Selector-Switch-XB2-BD21C-CA-/142158936483

[2] 3 position selector switches

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Position-...y-Switch-LA38-20CX3-Long-Handle-/110890436780


[1] Amp/volt meter

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XFWLQ6H/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[5] XLR sockets, [1] for each PT100 temp probes

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009GUWLNE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[5] PT 100 probes, [1] for each pid

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M1139AP/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[5] 15 amp screw block terminals

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Posit...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=206ABEDPTMHYN2SSC4GJ

[2] 40amp SSR's Foteck

[2] heat sinks for ssr's

I hope all these links work!

:mug:

I also got these fuse holders from a solar system that was dismantled. They all work, I tested them and they are din rail and I have plenty of din rail to use them.
 
Hey guys, my build is continuing at a slow pace. I started my build using my SS recycled box. I spent a lot of time carefully laying it out and trying to use the existing holes that were already in it. I think I succeeded with that part of it. I also spent many hours trying to figure out where the placement of the all the parts would go to make the wiring correct and efficient. I found that part of it is kind of a headache because I'm not very skilled in that department. I also found that cutting and the drilling etc, is very time-consuming and you have to be pretty exact to drill the holes in the correct spots. I think if it was in my budget I would buy one that's pre-cut and drilled, but unfortunately it's not in my shoestring budget.

To make it a bit harder, I'm using several different wiring diagrams I found on here and elsewhere on the internet to try and figure out and piece the wiring together to get what I need for the set up I want to use. The one thing about all wiring diagrams in general is, how, where and what do you use for for "tapping" in a wire"circuit" to feed another switch, light, or another circuit. Most are common sense to me, but others I find confusing. For instance, in plumbing, you would just use a "T", but with electric, it's just not that easy. Lol The wiring diagrams just show a wire that continues to something else with another wire just coming off it. No part for that is listed for it.

So I have some questions about that to follow.

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These photos are a mock-up of one leg of the power to see if it is correct.

Questions I have so far.

When I come out of the 63 amp main contactor, I have to split each leg (BLACK/RED) to go into each of the 2, 30 amp circuit breakers. So I got 2, 30 amp rated terminal blocks to distribute power from each of the 6 gauge supply wires, and to pull two 110V circuits for the rest of the box. I think that because I'll never even be pulling 30 amps from each leg of the contactor , it would be okay. I originally made the jumper plates figuring I would only use one connection to the terminal blocks on the 6 gauge wires, but I couldn't find any. So after thinking about it, there are 7 individual wires in the 6-gauge cable, and I think that each strand carries x amount of current and it should be the same if I divided the strands into 2, 2 and 3 . 4 strands won't fit into the 10 gauge connector. Will this be ok?
An Electrician friend of mine gave me some 6-gauge wire nuts, but I don't think three wires will fit into one.

Another question is, do I even need 6-gauge wire coming out of the contactor to the terminal block, could I just use 10 gauge?

I'm pretty sure that the contactors and the circuit breakers do not have a mandatory feed Direction?

Is it also okay to use solid wire as well as stranded wire?

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Did a little more hunting and found these at HD.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Blackbur...H=REC-_-rv_search_plp_rr-_-NA-_-100172941-_-N

I was clutching straws with the wire splitting as pictured in last post.
I don't see why this won't work. The specs say the are used for Power, and Grounding lugs. I (If these will be acceptable) will mount them on a plastic base so they are isolated from the metal box.

This is how I would use them.
They are rated for 1/0 - 14 g cable.

Each single 6 gauge cable RED/BLACK coming out of the main contactor needs to be split into (2) 6 gauge wires to go into the (2) 30 amp breakers. On the feed wire to the lug, I will just remove a small portion of the insulation where the feed wire passes through the lug, and that wire will continue to one of the breakers. Then from the 2nd hole in the lug, another 6 gauge cable will go to the other 2nd 30 amp breaker.

View attachment 1494169940852.jpg

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You just don't want to take a wire which is rated for a certain current then split it and expect those split sections to carry the same current. Even if they will not, you don't make wires into a distribution block. Use a distribution block for that.

Above are 'OK'. I personally don't like highly exposed terminals which carry high voltage. Nothing wrong from a "best practice" or "code" perspective, but my concern is a loose wire (or more likely, tool) can create a path to ground or another line.

One other comment while I am offering critical advice... how are your terminals crimped? I don't see the insulation showing a crimp. I suggest you use a legit, ratcheting crimper.
 
Looking at the pictures BrunDog was commenting on, you already have a solid bridge in place, so you don't need to split the inbound wire like that, you can simply use a single connector for the heavier wire on one of the 4 terminal points.
 
BrunDog said:
You just don't want to take a wire which is rated for a certain current then split it and expect those split sections to carry the same current. Even if they will not, you don't make wires into a distribution block. Use a distribution block for that.

Well, that was just a thought that I got after realizing a 6 gauge spade crimp would not fit in one of those slots. I was pretty sure it would get shot down. Thank You.

Above are 'OK'. I personally don't like highly exposed terminals which carry high voltage. Nothing wrong from a "best practice" or "code" perspective, but my concern is a loose wire (or more likely, tool) can create a path to ground or another line.

I'm glad they will work. I agree with you on the exposure of them inside there.
Soo, since you and I would be a little Leary of them, when I isolate them from the box, I'm going to incorporate a clear plexi glass raised cover over the connections.


One other comment while I am offering critical advice... how are your terminals crimped? I don't see the insulation showing a crimp. I suggest you use a legit, ratcheting crimper.
Click to expand...

Your eyes are impeccable. There were no crimper used to crimp them on . That's because I only did a quick mock up of power from the main power supply through the main contactor to the terminal block to the breaker and out a the breaker to the contactor.
Does that look correct? How bout the current direction for the breakers
 
BrunDog said:
You just don't want to take a wire which is rated for a certain current then split it and expect those split sections to carry the same current. Even if they will not, you don't make wires into a distribution block. Use a distribution block for that.

Well, that was just a thought that I got after realizing a 6 gauge spade crimp would not fit in one of those slots. I was pretty sure it would get shot down. Thank You.

Above are 'OK'. I personally don't like highly exposed terminals which carry high voltage. Nothing wrong from a "best practice" or "code" perspective, but my concern is a loose wire (or more likely, tool) can create a path to ground or another line.

I'm glad they will work. I agree with you on the exposure of them inside there.
Soo, since you and I would be a little Leary of them, when I isolate them from the box, I'm going to incorporate a clear plexi glass raised cover over the connections.


One other comment while I am offering critical advice... how are your


Does that look correct? How bout the current direction for the breakers
Click to expand...
 
bruce_the_loon said:
Looking at the pictures BrunDog was commenting on, you already have a solid bridge in place, so you don't need to split the inbound wire like that, you can simply use a single connector for the heavier wire on one of the 4 terminal points.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought at 1st too, but I couldn't find a 6 gauge spade terminal. And it would never fit in one oh those slots anyway. I'm actually happy I found the lugs in the most recent photos .
 
The fan is a good idea but you may want to think about airflow in the box. You're blowing new air in without any place for the old air to get out. It will greatly reduce the amount of air flowing across your heat sinks. You may want to put a vent on the far side of the heat sinks or another fan blowing out.
 
Beernip said:
The fan is a good idea but you may want to think about airflow in the box. You're blowing new air in without any place for the old air to get out. It will greatly reduce the amount of air flowing across your heat sinks. You may want to put a vent on the far side of the heat sinks or another fan blowing out.
Click to expand...

Hey Beernip, I have given a lot of thought to the air flow.
Here are my thoughts,
1. Reverse what I have installed now and PULL air out of the box.

2. If you look at the before I drilled any holes pic. This recycled box came with existing holes in it, that I worked around and used everyone except one on the bottom. Actually what I'm using for the bottom was actually the top of the box. You can see in the 2nd pic the hole I didn't use. It's a 2" hole. I figured I'd use this for the exhaust air flow.
I thought it's enough for venting.

3. I did consider having a discharge hole right across from the other one. Ultimately, that would probably be the best because the SSR are mounted on a hollow aluminum square tube. That propped up the SSRs to be right in the center of air flow. The extra aluminum will dissipate more heat and I would have air flow through that square tubes as well.

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The second vent will be great. Air will act like water so if you pulled from the bottom out to the fan it would cause 80% of the air flow to miss your heat sinks. Blowing the fan directly on them with a vent on the opposite side will cause everything to flow across the heat sinks for maximum cooling.
 
Yes, I agree. After thinking about it, I think the best way is across the heat sinks and right out . I also think that the bottom hole will allow even a better amount of air to be sucked in for even better cooling. Now was the time to do it before I get started wiring it uo.
 

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