4L starter??
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flyangler18
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Lagers need substantially more yeast than ales of the same OG; if you have the time, ferment the 2L out to completion, crash, decant and pitch 2L of fresh wort on top of the slurry.
dontman
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You can do a step up to build the population they are apparently looking for. Although personally, I've never done bigger than a 2L myself. Even on my Pilsners.
Brew-boy
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Get a bigger flask you will thank yourself later especially if you plan on a lot of largers.
I have a 1000ml 2000ml 4000ml and 5000ml I have all my bases covered.....lol
I have a 1000ml 2000ml 4000ml and 5000ml I have all my bases covered.....lol
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The Pol
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Well, hrmmm... I do understand that lagering requires a higher cell count, but 4L... really?
I suppose I may be able to step it up... but didnt really want to take that much time to do so. Let me go look at Mr Malty....
I suppose I may be able to step it up... but didnt really want to take that much time to do so. Let me go look at Mr Malty....
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The Pol
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Mr Malty sayes that I need 1.0L of starter... so 2L is double? Why would I need 4L?
I need 323 billion cells per Mr Malty.
2L of starter will produce 456 billion cells per Mr Malty
When you all lager, what size starters do YOU use?
I need 323 billion cells per Mr Malty.
2L of starter will produce 456 billion cells per Mr Malty
When you all lager, what size starters do YOU use?
Joe Camel
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The recipe is probably saying a gallon starter because the author is not using a stirplate.
I use 2L in 5 gallons and I step it up from 1L to 2L in two days hitting it with more O2 when I add the second batch of wort. Yes, it's a pain because you're not boiling in the flask at that point.
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You can make your starter in your fermenter.
Boerderij_Kabouter
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Mr. Malty gives me 3.02 qts when I enter a lager of 1.046 OG at 5.25 gallons with brand new yeast.
Are you sure you selected "lager" in the upper left box?
Anywho, I made 1 gallon starters for my lagers so far when using liquid yeast. I fermented out fully and decanted the spent wort. It seems to have worked really well. I am kegging those first 4 lagers tomorrow after a 2+ month lager, so I will tell you soon how my technique worked out.
On a side note, when pitching dry yeast cold into a lager you MUST rehydrate. That was my first experience with dry yeast and like an idiot I just dumped all the packets in to the cold wort. It took almost 65 hours to get going and they do not taste as good at my last sampling as the liquid yeast counterparts. Darn my stupidity.
Are you sure you selected "lager" in the upper left box?
Anywho, I made 1 gallon starters for my lagers so far when using liquid yeast. I fermented out fully and decanted the spent wort. It seems to have worked really well. I am kegging those first 4 lagers tomorrow after a 2+ month lager, so I will tell you soon how my technique worked out.
On a side note, when pitching dry yeast cold into a lager you MUST rehydrate. That was my first experience with dry yeast and like an idiot I just dumped all the packets in to the cold wort. It took almost 65 hours to get going and they do not taste as good at my last sampling as the liquid yeast counterparts. Darn my stupidity.
JKoravos
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If you're using dry yeast, you should probably just buy more dry yeast rather than using a starter.
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The Pol
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Except the starter costs less , and I wont have to run to the LHBS again
Pol, I know from your pics of your RWS that you have a 1 gallon jug which is darn close to 4 liters. Why not just use that and leave a little room for krauzen and let it go at 50* so it won't go crazy with the krauzen.
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The Pol
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I suppose I could drop that on the stir plate... maybe?
Boerderij_Kabouter
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I just rechecked to make sure I am not crazy...
The key is to select a lager calculator (upper left of the calculator). If you have it set to calculate pitching rate for an Ale it will tell you to make a 1.06 quart starter, if you select "Lager" you need a 3.02 quart starter.
The disparity comes from the different ideal pitching ratios.
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The Pol
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I just rechecked to make sure I am not crazy...
The key is to select a lager calculator (upper left of the calculator). If you have it set to calculate pitching rate for an Ale it will tell you to make a 1.06 quart starter, if you select "Lager" you need a 3.02 quart starter.
The disparity comes from the different ideal pitching ratios.
Nope, it shows me 1.01L starter. Are you choosing SIMPLE STARTER or STIR PLATE in the middle of the page? There is a big difference there.
I am choosing LAGER, 1.046, 5.25 gallons, STIR PLATE... that gives me a 1.01L starter
flyangler18
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I just rechecked to make sure I am not crazy...
The key is to select a lager calculator (upper left of the calculator). If you have it set to calculate pitching rate for an Ale it will tell you to make a 1.06 quart starter, if you select "Lager" you need a 3.02 quart starter.
The disparity comes from the different ideal pitching ratios.
L, not qts.
The calculator lists volumes in liters, silly Donkey Sniffer!
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The Pol
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L, not qts.
The calculator lists volumes in liters, silly Donkey Sniffer!
No, it will list it in quarts too... you can change the preferences...
I am still getting 1.01L for 1.046 at 5.25 gallons
SpanishCastleAle
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Pol,
Is that with just one vial or pack? When I use the Mr. Malty PRC using: Lager / 1.046 / 5.25 US gal / 100% viability / Stir Plate I get 340 billion yeast cells needed. It says a 1.06 qt. starter is required using two vials/packs. If I max the Growth Factor such that I only need 1 vial/pack then it says the starter should be 2.55 qt.
EDIT:
EDIT 2: I orig put Liters in my text but it should be quarts.
Is that with just one vial or pack? When I use the Mr. Malty PRC using: Lager / 1.046 / 5.25 US gal / 100% viability / Stir Plate I get 340 billion yeast cells needed. It says a 1.06 qt. starter is required using two vials/packs. If I max the Growth Factor such that I only need 1 vial/pack then it says the starter should be 2.55 qt.
EDIT:
I've never used a stir plate but from what I've read it can be difficult to get the stirrer to work properly unless the bottom of the vessel is flat (like a flask). Many gallon jugs have a convex bottom.
EDIT 2: I orig put Liters in my text but it should be quarts.
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The Pol
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I get it... I didnt see that I needed (2) packs of yeast for that 1L starter #
With one pack of yeast, it shows I need a 2.5L starter... okay.
Boerderij_Kabouter
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ahhhh I forgot to mention that part. I was using stir plate selected. I still don't get how mine shows 3.2 quarts and yours doesn't though???
SpanishCastleAle
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Viability? I used 100%.
brewphilly18
Member
If I wanted to make a 4L starter in a 2L flask using only one vial/pack, would the following steps work:
(1) Make a starter to get the cell count to the equivalent of 2 vials/packs (~200 billion)
(2) Chill and decant
(3) Use Mr. Malty to figure out the proper starter size assuming 2 vials/packs and make more starter wort and pitch on top of slurry.
why not just recalculate with the site to get the total size for 1 vial? There's a slider for more vials vs bigger starter.
brewphilly18
Member
I'm just wondering if that procedure would work if I wanted to avoid using a larger container. Right now I have a 2L flask and stir plate and I'm not sure if a 5L flask would work on my stir plate.
remilard
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is exactly how to do it.
Alternately the Wyeast calculator (simpler than Mr. Malty but it does have stir plate vs non) lets you calculate multiple steps at once.
I do your process as above myself.
RiverSwillBeer
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If I make 1 liter of 1.040 wort, pitch a vial of yeast and drop it on the stir plate ... then in about 2 days decant off the liquid and make another 1 liter of 1.040 wort and drop that on top of the cake and spin ..... is that considered a 2 liter starter???
RiverSwillBeer
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Sorry .... didnt mean to be a thread killer
shortyjacobs
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I was told "No":
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/i-have-small-flask-syndrome-need-boost-my-cell-count-138025/
Although, (with all due respect to the folks who commented in my thread), I have trouble believing that yeast hit some kind of terminal concentration and just stop growing....I mean I know from biochemistry that it's possible, but seems somewhat lazy of the little buggers.
