3724 and fusel alcohol dilemma

[yeastylad]

I'm brewing my second Saison (the first was with 3711 - rapid and a piece of cake), and this one was definitely an emotional 4 weeks. I had a stall around 1.040 from a OG of 1.056 (a little early compared to the norm) for around a week, but after 4 weeks controlled at 90 - 92 degrees F it finished at around 1.011. I was hoping for lower, but its been there for about 10 days, so I figure its done as much as it can.

I bottled today and I'm paranoid of fusels in the beer. Most folk have said you can ramp this yeast into the 90s with no fusels, but the final hydrometer taste before bottling was a lot of banana and a little hot. Not nasty hot, just banana alcohol. Thoughts? is it just green and estery, or do I have a problem?

BTW if you haven't used this yeast before and want to challenge yourself like I did, be ready to cry like a baby and lose some sleep...

 

[Montanaandy]

First suggestion for future reference - check the archives on 3724 - everything you could possibly want to know about this yeast has been covered over the years by homebrewers and those of us who have gone pro.

If you are at 1.011 or so after 4 weeks with this yeast, allow it to go for another 2-4 weeks, swirling the carboy every few days. You should drop additional gravity until you get into the single digits.

3724 = patience! patience! patience

We use 3711 and other saison yeasts rather than 3724 because the flavor profile is not all that different and they are much more well behaved.

 

[BigPerm]

First suggestion for future reference - check the archives on 3724 - everything you could possibly want to know about this yeast has been covered over the years by homebrewers and those of us who have gone pro.

If you are at 1.011 or so after 4 weeks with this yeast, allow it to go for another 2-4 weeks, swirling the carboy every few days. You should drop additional gravity until you get into the single digits.

3724 = patience! patience! patience

We use 3711 and other saison yeasts rather than 3724 because the flavor profile is not all that different and they are much more well behaved.

While much of this is largely true, what is not is that the flavor profile of 3711 and 3724 are interchangeable. Yes, 3711 is a monster and will ferment whatever you throw at it and fast. 3724, if treated properly, will yield delicate spicy flavors that 3711 wont provide. Both will produce a nice saison; your choice will largely depend on what you're after (speed vs flavor complexity), but they are not equivalent.

Your FG will depend not only on the yeast, but on your grain bill and mash schedule, which you didn't provide. In my experience, a stable gravity over nearly two weeks, in that range, shouldn't give you problems, but w/o further information its hard to say.

 

[BigPerm]

As for fusels, wait it out. I wouldn't be worried at all. Everything you are tasting at this stage is green beer. I wouldn't expect anything like this with your fermentation.

 

[Montanaandy]

I always enjoy this board and the expertise of someone who has brewed a handful of batches with certain yeasts...

The bottom line is that there is not all that much of a flavor variation between the end product using 3724 and 3711.

Brew a number of batches using each yeast and judge for yourself.

Cheers!

While much of this is largely true, what is not is that the flavor profile of 3711 and 3724 are interchangeable. Yes, 3711 is a monster and will ferment whatever you throw at it and fast. 3724, if treated properly, will yield delicate spicy flavors that 3711 wont provide. Both will produce a nice saison; your choice will largely depend on what you're after (speed vs flavor complexity), but they are not equivalent.

Your FG will depend not only on the yeast, but on your grain bill and mash schedule, which you didn't provide. In my experience, a stable gravity over nearly two weeks, in that range, shouldn't give you problems, but w/o further information its hard to say.

 

[g-star]

I always enjoy this board and the expertise of someone who has brewed a handful of batches with certain yeasts...

The bottom line is that there is not all that much of a flavor variation between the end product using 3724 and 3711.

Brew a number of batches using each yeast and judge for yourself.

Cheers!

Disagree here, the difference is subjective and I can definitely tell a difference between the two. To me 3711 is fruitier, while 3724 produces a more spice/phenolic balance with the fruit more in the background. So clearly, there is no ultimate authority in this area.

Also, 3724 will ferment out to 1.003 -1.006 in about a week with a standard gravity Saison if treated right. My typical routine is to mash low (147F/90min) and add some simple sugar to the kettle. Start fermentation off around 68F and hold for about 36hrs. At this point, add additional simple sugar (0.5lbs/5gal, as a syrup) and begin ramping the temp 2F every 12 hours until you hit the low 80's.

Using this method, I've never had a fermentation stall or fusel alcohols. The beers have a great ester/phenolic balance and finish very dry in about one week.

 

[yeastylad]

While much of this is largely true, what is not is that the flavor profile of 3711 and 3724 are interchangeable. Yes, 3711 is a monster and will ferment whatever you throw at it and fast. 3724, if treated properly, will yield delicate spicy flavors that 3711 wont provide. Both will produce a nice saison; your choice will largely depend on what you're after (speed vs flavor complexity), but they are not equivalent.

Your FG will depend not only on the yeast, but on your grain bill and mash schedule, which you didn't provide. In my experience, a stable gravity over nearly two weeks, in that range, shouldn't give you problems, but w/o further information its hard to say.

It was a 60 min boil extract brew, using briess golden with some steeped 20L caramel malt. I only have < 10 batches under my belt, so fairly novice, although have a reasonable understanding of the workings of fermentation (I work in biotech). I'm still experimenting with different ingredients and yeasts before I move to BIAB or all grain.

The outcome of this batch isn't a huge concern to me, it's all a learning process and I just really enjoy hearing feedback from folk who have more experience brewing. So all opinions and advice are welcome!

 

[Qhrumphf]

I always enjoy this board and the expertise of someone who has brewed a handful of batches with certain yeasts...

The bottom line is that there is not all that much of a flavor variation between the end product using 3724 and 3711.

Brew a number of batches using each yeast and judge for yourself.

Cheers!

As others have said, that may be your subjective opinion, or a result of other factors in your process. The difference to me between 3724 and 3711 is very, very wide. 3711 to me is mildly fruity, but a very clean yeast by Belgian standards, and it lacks all the complexity and depth of character you can get from 3724. But that may also be my subjective experience.

Disagree here, the difference is subjective and I can definitely tell a difference between the two. To me 3711 is fruitier, while 3724 produces a more spice/phenolic balance with the fruit more in the background. So clearly, there is no ultimate authority in this area.

Also, 3724 will ferment out to 1.003 -1.006 in about a week with a standard gravity Saison if treated right. My typical routine is to mash low (147F/90min) and add some simple sugar to the kettle. Start fermentation off around 68F and hold for about 36hrs. At this point, add additional simple sugar (0.5lbs/5gal, as a syrup) and begin ramping the temp 2F every 12 hours until you hit the low 80's.

Using this method, I've never had a fermentation stall or fusel alcohols. The beers have a great ester/phenolic balance and finish very dry in about one week.

This. My house Saison uses 3724 and goes from 1.061 to 1.004 in about a week. Do almost exactly what's listed above, I just go higher and I do it a little faster. I pitch at 68, hold until fermentation is active (12-24 hours), and then it's 5ish degrees a day to the 80s, and then a bigger faster jump up to 101F. I don't add the sugar until at least a few days into fermentation (basically once I hit that 101 mark). And again, I hit my FG around 6-8 days, with nary a stall.

I also pitch a pretty big starter with this, and I also aerate the crap out of it. And it does start a little boozy, but nowhere near what you'd expect, but it fades fast (basically after it's carbonated I age it for about a month and then its good to go), and as the higher alcohols are breaking down it seems to leave behind even more esters and a little tartness.

 

[seejayabney]

I brew a lot of Saisons and harvested both 3711 and 3724. One thing I like to do is pitch 3724 first, wait a day or two then pitch a smaller portion of 3711 from an active starter. I have not pushed either into the 90's but almost always start at 70 and push to 85 over a few days.

 

[BigPerm]

I always enjoy this board and the expertise of someone who has brewed a handful of batches with certain yeasts...

The bottom line is that there is not all that much of a flavor variation between the end product using 3724 and 3711.

The board is about giving feedback to a question that was asked. For you, the two yeasts are equivalent. I, and the majority of others, don't agree with you. Not sure why you think your experiences are more valuable than others, particularly when you are making assumptions about the experiences (and techniques) of others.

Now then:

It was a 60 min boil extract brew, using briess golden with some steeped 20L caramel malt. I only have < 10 batches under my belt, so fairly novice, although have a reasonable understanding of the workings of fermentation (I work in biotech). I'm still experimenting with different ingredients and yeasts before I move to BIAB or all grain.

Your slightly higher than normal FG may be a result of the crystal or extract, but I don't think 1.011 will cause you any problems, although it would be a touch sweet for my tastes. And I've seen many people ferment with this strain and others at very high temps with no real mention of fusels. I don't typically ferment this high, so I don't have direct experience here, but these strains seem to be at least somewhat resistant to higher alcohol production.

I have a variant of this yeast going right now and it took nearly three weeks at ~75F to get below 1.010. Many factors at play, but I'm sure you made a delicious saison!

 

[yeastylad]

Thanks, I figured the extract/steeping might be the reason I didn't get the FG down lower. It's bottled now so I'll just wait it out and see how it tastes. If I remember, I'll check back in with you all and let you know how it is.

BigPerm, I think you addressed everything I asked originally, so "Cheers, pal" as we say in Scotland! (Although I'm now an NH resident these days

 

[beergolf]

The bottom line is that there is not all that much of a flavor variation between the end product using 3724 and 3711.

I agree with what some of the other have stated. I think these two yeast are as different as night and day.

To the OP heating 3724 up will not produce fusels. It is probably the only yeast I can think of that tolerates that kind of heat easily.

 

[tagz]

I agree with what some of the other have stated. I think these two yeast are as different as night and day.

To the OP heating 3724 up will not produce fusels. It is probably the only yeast I can think of that tolerates that kind of heat easily.

Ramping the temp might not produce fusels but starting high will. Emailed with Wyeast; they said starting and maintaining high temps will help it finish but will result in fusel production.

 

[BigPerm]

Ramping the temp might not produce fusels but starting high will. Emailed with Wyeast; they said starting and maintaining high temps will help it finish but will result in fusel production.

+1. Ramping is definitely the best way, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Good advice here.

 

[yeastylad]

Ugh. That's a worry. I took the yeast out of the fridge a day and a half before brew day and I smacked the yeast and it was around 70-75F in my kitchen at that time. I pitched when the wort was in the high 70s, and set my heat wrap to 90. I wonder if this could loosely translate as a "ramp" (*clutches at a conveniently located nearby handful of straws*)

 

[yeastylad]

As others have said, that may be your subjective opinion, or a result of other factors in your process. The difference to me between 3724 and 3711 is very, very wide. 3711 to me is mildly fruity, but a very clean yeast by Belgian standards, and it lacks all the complexity and depth of character you can get from 3724. But that may also be my subjective experience.



This. My house Saison uses 3724 and goes from 1.061 to 1.004 in about a week. Do almost exactly what's listed above, I just go higher and I do it a little faster. I pitch at 68, hold until fermentation is active (12-24 hours), and then it's 5ish degrees a day to the 80s, and then a bigger faster jump up to 101F. I don't add the sugar until at least a few days into fermentation (basically once I hit that 101 mark). And again, I hit my FG around 6-8 days, with nary a stall.

I also pitch a pretty big starter with this, and I also aerate the crap out of it. And it does start a little boozy, but nowhere near what you'd expect, but it fades fast (basically after it's carbonated I age it for about a month and then its good to go), and as the higher alcohols are breaking down it seems to leave behind even more esters and a little tartness.

I'm glad I came back and check your responses. I cracked a bottle after a week of carbing (I know, I know... BE PATIENT!) and it is boozy, with a little bit of fizz, but not worth drinking the whole bottle. I think even still a little sweet from the bottling sugar . I'm pretty sure I'm tasting the fusels. I'm going to age it for at least a month in my basement (it's not that cool down there, but probably fine for carbing) and I also read that prolonged aging at serving temps can break down the fusels. Anyone else have any experience on that front?

 

[yeastylad]

Anyone interested in how this beer is a few months on? It turned out pretty well. Completely different to 3711. I honestly don't see how anyone could say they are virtually the same. 3711 gave me a beer that was like a more simplistic hoegaarden. A little floral, light and easy drinking. This beer is nothing like any commercially available beer I've had. I can taste the Saison-ness. But I also taste the Belgian-ness. It's phenolic, a little pepper spice, and then fruity esters come through at the end. Some peach fruit flavor. I like both the beers these yeasts produced, but the 3711 was just so much easier, and definitely a more enjoyable summer thirst quencher.