2nd time extract brew, I have some questions

[IPAustin]

Okay, I just bottled my first brew a week ago and there were a couple things that did not come out quite as expected. 1) The beer was darker than I expected by 3-4 SRM. 2) It didn't have much hop flavor or bitterness. The beer tasted clean (overly malty), just tasted like my recipe could use a lot of work. I downloaded beersmith because some of those recipe calculator websites give me concern on how well they work (or how well I know how to use them.)

So, for my second batch this is the recipe I have cooked up, and I also have some in general questions on brewing. For starters, based on How To Brew and forums I read, I started with 3 gallons of water last time.

.5 lbs Carapils
.5 lbs Caramel 20 (I used 60 last time, but I'm trying to lighten it up.)

I steep these grains for 30 minutes, shake out the bag gently over the pot, and throw them away.
Last time, I added 7 pounds LME. This time I thought I would add half now and half after (Forums give me the impression this could also help to lighten the beer.) Back to the recipe.

1 lbs DME
3.5 lbs LME
1 lb Table Sugar (To add to the ABV. From what I've read, it's fine to use in this way but keep it under 10%)

.75 oz Centennial (60 min)
.50 oz Simcoe (30 min)
3.5 lbs LME (15 min)
1 oz Pacifica (15 min)
1 oz Rakau (10 min)
1 oz Galaxy (5 min)
.50 oz Simcoe (5 min)
.25 oz Centennial (5 min)
1 oz Citra (0 min)


Now I use an Ice Bath to cool it down. I get free ice from work, so I have plenty. It took me about 30 minutes last time to get it all the way down last time (80 F).

Then I slosh it in between the pot and the bucket a few times to get the aeration going. Then I add the about 2 gallons of water to get to 5 gallons. Then I use the hydrometer to take the OG. Last time I used liquid yeast, WLP001 California Ale. I boiled 4 cups water, poured the yeast in that cup, covered it and put it in the fridge for 15 minutes, took it out and pitched my yeast.

Last time I did only one stage fermentation, this time I'm going for two. Based on what Beersmith tells me, this is my projected time frame.

Primary Fermentation - 4 days ( Although, I think, I know just to wait until the bubbler calms down and fermentation has slowed it's roll. )

Secondary Fermentation (5 gal glass carboy) - 10 days

Then begin my dry hop.
2 oz Citra
1 oz Galaxy
1 oz Rakau

All of these for 7 days in a small grain bag (which the guy at my brew store said would work fine for hops.) I'm under the impression to put some sort of weight in, some sanitized bolts or something, to keep the hops closest to the center of the carboy. After the 7 days, I will take the hop bag out and proceed to bottle.

So, a total of 4-5 days in the Primary and about 17 days in the Secondary, with the last 7 being the dry hop.


In conclusion my main question is about the whole Partial boil thing. I did that last time because that's just what I thought you did. I've read since then that adding the water at the end will dilute your hop flavor and bitterness. I certainly don't want to do that. I'm assuming that is a contributor to last time why it was so un-hoppy. I also only used 3 ounces of hops, although I used them earlier in the boil to try and drive the IBUs up.

I have a 40L pot. So I assume there is enough space for a full boil. Would this affect my recipe or brewing process at all? (Other than not adding water at the end, obviously.) In beersmith I'm using Pot and Cooler (5 gal/19L) Extract/Partial Mash because none of the options are my size and I figured it was important to pick one that said extract beside it.

The projected specs from beersmith are as follows:

OG: 1.060
IBUs: 72.2
SRM: 8.8
ABV: 6.3%

So, I'm happy to hear any and all advice. Mainly I want to know if I'd be better of with a full boil, and how I should adjust my process/recipe to make that work. Also, will adding half of the LME at the end of the boil have the effect I'm looking for (lightening up the beer)? Does my dry hop time and process seem legit? I've already got the ingredients, so I'm pretty set on what hops and malt I'm using, but I'm happy to change the amounts/times.

 

[jimbobbillyray]

1,) Why use a secondary , bad idea for this IMO ( I would only use secondary for adding fruit, aging high ABV etc. ) you increase risk of bad things for no return on it IMHO
2.) Why dry hop for 7 days one/two should do the trick? Conventional wisdom suggests more than this can add "vegetable/grassy" flavors .
3.) Adding sugar will likely "dry the beer" (unless that is the flavor profile you're going for?

You need some DME/LME for hop utilization, it's already sanitary (or should be) so add about 1 lb at beginning and the rest at "flame out" - will be pasteurized near instantly yes will keep it from being as dark and often eliminates many "off flavor complaints"

 

[Subdivisions]

If you absolutely have to move it to secondary then wait until you've reached final gravity. If you take it out of primary too early you could get a stalled fermentation. This could be five days or eleven. Only the yeast and your hydrometer know.

 

[Calder]

.5 lbs Carapils
.5 lbs Caramel 20

Steep these grains for 30 minutes, shake out the bag gently over the pot, and throw them away.

1 lbs DME
7.0 lbs LME (3.5 added at 15 mins)
1 lb Table Sugar

.75 oz Centennial (60 min)
.50 oz Simcoe (30 min)
1 oz Pacifica (15 min)
1 oz Rakau (10 min)
1 oz Galaxy (5 min)
.50 oz Simcoe (5 min)
.25 oz Centennial (5 min)
1 oz Citra (0 min)

Use an Ice Bath to cool it down.

Then I slosh it in between the pot and the bucket a few times to get the aeration going. Then I add the about 2 gallons of water to get to 5 gallons.

Then I use the hydrometer to take the OG.

Last time I used liquid yeast, WLP001 California Ale. I boiled 4 cups water, poured the yeast in that cup, covered it and put it in the fridge for 15 minutes, took it out and pitched my yeast.

Last time I did only one stage fermentation, this time I'm going for two.

Primary Fermentation - 4 days ( Although, I think, I know just to wait until the bubbler calms down and fermentation has slowed it's roll. )

Secondary Fermentation (5 gal glass carboy) - 10 days

Then begin my dry hop.
2 oz Citra
1 oz Galaxy
1 oz Rakau

All of these for 7 days in a small grain bag (which the guy at my brew store said would work fine for hops.) I'm under the impression to put some sort of weight in, some sanitized bolts or something, to keep the hops closest to the center of the carboy. After the 7 days, I will take the hop bag out and proceed to bottle.

So, a total of 4-5 days in the Primary and about 17 days in the Secondary, with the last 7 being the dry hop.

In conclusion my main question is about the whole Partial boil thing. I did that last time because that's just what I thought you did. I've read since then that adding the water at the end will dilute your hop flavor and bitterness. I certainly don't want to do that. I'm assuming that is a contributor to last time why it was so un-hoppy. I also only used 3 ounces of hops, although I used them earlier in the boil to try and drive the IBUs up.

I have a 40L pot. So I assume there is enough space for a full boil. Would this affect my recipe or brewing process at all? (Other than not adding water at the end, obviously.) In beersmith I'm using Pot and Cooler (5 gal/19L) Extract/Partial Mash because none of the options are my size and I figured it was important to pick one that said extract beside it.

The projected specs from beersmith are as follows:

OG: 1.060
IBUs: 72.2
SRM: 8.8
ABV: 6.3%

Where to begin?

First off, a full boil is almost always better. Even though you have a 40L pot, can your stove (I'm assuming you are on a kitchen stove) handle a full boil. My stove can only handle 4 gallons. You certainly don't want to have everything in the pot and then find you can only do a low simmer.

What do you lose by doing a partial boil? It will be darker, but by leaving some of the extract until the end, it will be lighter. You can move more of the LME to the end if you want. Also the sugar can wait until the end. And when I say end, I don't mean at 15 minutes, I mean after you have finished the boil. You will still be above pasteurization temps and will not have the issue of waiting for it to come back to the boil after putting it in.

Partial boil will also reduce hop utilization (this is the bittering part only), You will probably lose about 10% IBUs ...... but even that is up ffor debate these days, with some saying boil gravity makes no difference to hop utilization.

I think the sugar is a good addition for an IPA, especially an extract IPA.

10 ozs of hops, with 7 different varieties. While I think 10 ozs is a decent amount, 7 different varieties will just result in a muddled result. I think you need to stick with just one or two varieties and your bittering hop. I'm not familiar with all those hops, so I really can't comment on what the outcome could be like. I don't think I have ever used more than 3 types of finishing hops in a beer.

The 30 minute hop addition is really doing nothing. You have not utilized it's full potential for bittering, and by 30 minutes, all the flavor and aroma will be gone.

Not sure you will get anything from the Carapils. There is probably some in the extract anyway. There are no sugars in Carapils that will be extracted by steeping. It will not hurt either.

What temp steeping. I assume somewhere around 160 F, and not room temp.

Why did you put the liquid yeast in water? You need to hydrate dry yeast, but not liquid. Ideally with liquid yeast you should make a starter to increase the cells at pitching.

There is no need to use a secondary vessel.

Dry hops? Are you using leaf or pellet hops. If leaf, you will have a hard time getting them out of a carboy if you bag them. If pellets, I like to let them swim free, and place a strainer over the inlet of the siphon to stop them getting into the bottling bucket.

I usually dry hop 7 to 10 days and have not had any issues. There are some studies out there that indicate you are still pulling from the hops at 10 days ...... but most has been gained within a few days.

 

[Yooper]

Boil as much as you can, for the best beer.

What I would suggest is trying it with water first, to see how much you can actually bring to a boil, and then also consider how to cool that much hot wort.

What happens in a partial boil is the bittering suffers, so it's really hard to make a great IPA with a partial boil.

The reason isn't hops utilization- it's simple math. Say you had 2.5 gallons of wort with 75 IBUs in it. Adding 2.5 gallons of water with 0 IBUs means that you immediately have cut the IBUs in half by diluting them half, to 37.5 IBUs. That's why it's hard to make those beer styles with a partial boil.

As far as the color, adding the bulk of the extract (and sugar, if using) at flame out does help keep the color lighter, as well as improve the flavor so there is a less "cooked extract" taste to the beer (ie Maillard reactions). Generally, I would use a pound of extract in the boil per gallon of liquid boiled, and add the rest at flame out.

 

[ncbrewer]

To explain why IBU's would be limited when using a partial boil: There is a solubility limit of roughly 100 IBU's. If you wanted the beer to have 72 IBU's and you were adding half your water as top-off, you would need 144 IBU's in the boiled wort, which is impossible.

 

[Calder]

To explain why IBU's would be limited when using a partial boil: There is a solubility limit of roughly 100 IBU's. If you wanted the beer to have 72 IBU's and you were adding half your water as top-off, you would need 144 IBU's in the boiled wort, which is impossible.

I don't know if this has ever been proven. I think somewhere in the book 'Hops', it records wort as having much higher IBUs than 100. I think the limit of somewhere close to 100 IBUs is in the fermented product. A lot of IBUs are lost with trub and yeast.

Now there is diminishing returns as you add more hops the utilization drops.

 

[ncbrewer]

Partial boil will also reduce hop utilization (this is the bittering part only), You will probably lose about 10% IBUs ...... but even that is up ffor debate these days, with some saying boil gravity makes no difference to hop utilization.

I believe the hop utilization would be essentially unaffected using the late extract method, and using about a pound of LME per gallon in the boil as Yooper suggested. (And as you pointed out, the whole idea of boil gravity affecting utilization is being questioned.)

 

[Yooper]

I don't know if this has ever been proven. I think somewhere in the book 'Hops', it records wort as having much higher IBUs than 100. I think the limit of somewhere close to 100 IBUs is in the fermented product. A lot of IBUs are lost with trub and yeast.

Now there is diminishing returns as you add more hops the utilization drops.

It's been proven, as far as I know. That's why some breweries (and homebrewers) are using things like "Hopshot" in the boil, to overcome that "ceiling" of approximately 100 IBUs. There is a limit to the amount of hops oils that can isomerize before the wort is saturated- right around 80-100 IBUs or so (depending on the amount of break material in the wort 'pulling' out some of the hops oils).

Even Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to 250+ IBUs, has been tested via spectrometry at 85 IBUs or so.

 

[geoffey]

I second the following:

-skip the secondary. Doesn't gain you anything with this beer
-don't mix your liquid yeast with boiled water. Just let it adjust to room temp, sanitize the vial or pack, and then pitch.
-don't worry about a yeast starter for another few batches.
-skip the 30 min addition. Add bittering hops at 60, the do a 5 min addition and a flameout addition.
-simplify the hop schedule. More isn't always better.
-boil as much as you can, all if possible.
-yes, add most of your DME at flameout.

I've done a pretty solid 30min boil beer where it was a full boil, using mostly extra light DME at the end. I used some Munich LME as well and didn't bother with any steeping grains.