2nd AG batch turning sour, I am worried

[Remos112]

Hello everybody. I am a fairly new all grain brewer. My first batch was a kit called Duvels nat. It fermented from 1.008 to 1.004 in the bottle probably due to wild yeast. I've got another thread regarding this. I stocked all the beers in the fridge and they taste great, but I would have waited a bit longer before drinking one if all went well.

Now my 2nd batch was a kit called Oak Royale and everything went great with that one. Tasted one last week (1 week in the bottle), and it was very taste yet undercarbed. Decided to try one yesterday. It was carbed up nicely and crystal clear, but the moment I opened one I could smell this sour white wine like smell. The beer tasted like this too, very very sour, much like white wine/white wine vinegar.

Before going AG I have brewed over 20 ectract/PM brews and never had off flavour or infections what so ever.

A couple questions pop to mind.
Is this beer infected or is there something else going on?
Is AG somehow more sensitve to infections?
I have 2 more AG batches sitting, 1 is a Kwak clone sitting almost 2 weeks in primary now, the other is a Chouffe clone brewed just yesterday. I am worried about ruining those batches too, what precautions can I take? If it means buying all new plastic (bottle bucket autosyphon bottling wand etc) I will.

Or might this be an aging process of the beer? The manufactor of the kit recomends letting it condition for 6-8 weeks, but I find it hard to believe that the sourness would go away in any amount of time.

Any and all help is very welcomed.
Thanks a lot in advance
Some information about the kit:

Munich malt
Pale malt
Carahell malt
Wheat malt light
It has Tetnang and Perle as hops
and it has burned oak chips to go in with fermentation.
yeast was fermentis safale s-189

 

[MonkeyMountain]

I've never used it but is s-189 not a lager yeast?
What temperature did you ferment at?

 

[Remos112]

I've never used it but is s-189 not a lager yeast?
What temperature did you ferment at?

Indeed it is. The instructions were to ferment at 59F for one week, then turn the heat up to 68f. Kept there 2 more weeks except for the last few days, I cold crashed it at 39F before bottlling.

The result was a very clear beer, tasted great after 1 week in the bottle, now tastes like white wine/vinegar

 

[Remos112]

Ps I opened another bottle from onother crate(same batch) to see if it was just the bottle. But this didn't seem the case, this bottle was just as sour.

 

[Electrake]

acetyl production=bacteria

 

[Remos112]

acetyl production=bacteria

So most likely infection as I feared? Will leaving the bottles a few more weeks be any good or is it better to just dump it asap? My worst fear would be bottlebombs. Also is getting new/other equipment for the next bottling sessions recommened? I could live with dumping 1 batch, but dumping three would really bum me down.

 

[Remos112]

I think I might be on to something. Some of the bottles have great carbonation, some not so much. Opened one that hadn't much and it wasn't sour either. So either the contamination is a few bottles only, or it's batch wide but some bottles take a bit longer to develope this vinegar taste. I am hoping it's the first but will keep you'll posted.

 

[MonkeyMountain]

I don't think you need to get new equipment. If it is bacteria, you need to work on your sanitation. If some bottles have it and some don't, it must have happened during bottling. Maybe some of the bottles weren't clean enough?

 

[Remos112]

I don't think you need to get new equipment. If it is bacteria, you need to work on your sanitation. If some bottles have it and some don't, it must have happened during bottling. Maybe some of the bottles weren't clean enough?

this was my conclusion as well thanks.Will be stepping up the bottle cleaning process from now on. Just glad it is the odd bottle and not the entire batch. I usally have very strict sanitation, but somehow these few slipped through the cracks

 

[hlmbrwng]

How do you bottle? The spigot of a bottling bucket is a great place for microbes to hide.

What is your process for cleaning and sanitizing bottles. Do you do both?

 

[Remos112]

How do you bottle? The spigot of a bottling bucket is a great place for microbes to hide.

What is your process for cleaning and sanitizing bottles. Do you do both?

I auto-siphon the beer into my bottle bucket wich has a filter-hex wich I also use for sparging. I then use the spigot with silicon tubing to a bottling wand.

My botte washing ritual is as following.
rinse the bottles with the hottest water possible from the tap.
Soak for about half an hour in oxiclean, by this time most labels peel off automatically and start to float in the bucket. Then rinse them once more with the hottest tap water possible. I then spray inside and neck with Starsan solution in a watersprayer. Just before bottling I pour any remaining/water starsan solution and then fill the bottles. I cap with caps soaked in starsan water as well. Never had any problem in the past this way.

 

[Remos112]

Turns out to be a batch wide flaw. Tried two botltles today and while they weren't a sour smelling. The first sip was horribile THe first thing that hit me was a strong band-aid flavour by the sourness. This beer is absolutely undrinkable. What's even worse, I still have 55 bottles of this brew. Is there the slightest chance this beer will be better in time? (so far the opposite is true) Or should I better toss it all away?

 

[hlmbrwng]

Looks like I'm in the same boat as you. Just finished up my second, in a row, infected AG batch.
It's pretty frustrating.

I am going to swap out as much of my equipment as I can for high-temp rated replacements so I can boil things to be safe.

Possible sources for the infection include:
- fermentation chamber - the first bad batch had a very distinct powerful smell that left the fermentor smelling that way even after cleaning. I need to do a more thorough cleaning
- flask for starter (although I did use oxiclean and star san on it). i might do without a starter next time
- tubing, of course
- glass carboy? It is very difficult to clean, IMO, a carboy with a brush without have the metal of the brush scrape the glass. I wish that the very end of the metal were covered with plastic. I wonder if I am putting small scrapes in the glass, which are harboring these microbes

Before the last batch I boiled the fittings of the kettle so that microbes would not be an issue when transferring to the carboy

In both batches I used citra hops from the same source. Even though they have antimicrobial properties, could the hop pellets be the source of the infection? I am using the hops for whirlpool and dry-hopping.

I have already purchased a new thief and racking cane because of the last batch that was infected. I don't want to keep being more of the same thing each time there is an infection, but I also don't want to risk it. I'm hoping oxiclean and star san will be fine for these two things. I don't let gunk build up on either of them.

 

[bolus14]

I've been brewing for 4 years and have only had one batch sour on me. The second batch after I moved last year, a Vanilla Porter, ended up tasting very much like an Oud Bruin, so it was drinkable just not my thing as I can't get into 99% of sour beers.

The cause of mine ended up being one of my fermenting buckets have some deep gouges in it, my only thought is something got to it during our moving from one house to the next. Got rid of that bucket, actually just use it for random crap around the house now, and bought a new one and with three different buckets I have yet to get another sour batch.

 

[ncbrewer]

I also got an infection on my first all grain batch. I decided it was from mashing in too close to where I pitched the yeast. I've read that grain should be handled in a separate area because the dust carries microbes. After that, I did just that - did all the grain handling in a separate area. There were 2 or 3 infected batches before I realized what was wrong. Bleached everything. Next batch was also infected. I use a bucket for fermenting, so replaced the bucket and all plastic gear. That took care of it - never had another infection, and that was four years ago.

 

[bolus14]

rinse the bottles with the hottest water possible from the tap.
Soak for about half an hour in oxiclean, by this time most labels peel off automatically and start to float in the bucket. Then rinse them once more with the hottest tap water possible. I then spray inside and neck with Starsan solution in a watersprayer. Just before bottling I pour any remaining/water starsan solution and then fill the bottles. I cap with caps soaked in starsan water as well. Never had any problem in the past this way.

I wouldn't worry about using the hottest tap water possible, many wild yeasts and bacteria can survive in hot tap water. Unless your boiling for 10-15 min your susceptible to picking up something just as if you were using warm or cold tap water

I would do label removal and bottling as two different processes. The glue and label could be carrying a variety of things that you don't want in your beer. And, while Oxiclean will kill some things it's just that a cleaner not a sanitizer so there's still some organisms that you could pick up at this point.

If your not using a high pressure sprayer for the Star San when your bottling think about soaking them, spraying with a standard water bottle sprayer likely won't hit the whole bottle. I have a rubbermaid tote that I fill with about 3 gal of Star San solution and then put about a case worth of bottles in and let them soak as i'm bottling.

 

[Remos112]

Looks like I'm in the same boat as you. Just finished up my second, in a row, infected AG batch.
It's pretty frustrating.

I am going to swap out as much of my equipment as I can for high-temp rated replacements so I can boil things to be safe.

Possible sources for the infection include:
- fermentation chamber - the first bad batch had a very distinct powerful smell that left the fermentor smelling that way even after cleaning. I need to do a more thorough cleaning
- flask for starter (although I did use oxiclean and star san on it). i might do without a starter next time
- tubing, of course
- glass carboy? It is very difficult to clean, IMO, a carboy with a brush without have the metal of the brush scrape the glass. I wish that the very end of the metal were covered with plastic. I wonder if I am putting small scrapes in the glass, which are harboring these microbes

Before the last batch I boiled the fittings of the kettle so that microbes would not be an issue when transferring to the carboy

In both batches I used citra hops from the same source. Even though they have antimicrobial properties, could the hop pellets be the source of the infection? I am using the hops for whirlpool and dry-hopping.

I have already purchased a new thief and racking cane because of the last batch that was infected. I don't want to keep being more of the same thing each time there is an infection, but I also don't want to risk it. I'm hoping oxiclean and star san will be fine for these two things. I don't let gunk build up on either of them.

I thought I had it isolated to a couple of bottles and probably dodged a bullet with the rest. Cleaned all the equipment extra extra good and I bottled 20 liters of Kwak clone. I also brew another 20L batch of Chouffe clone wich is in primary right now so I am in a slight state of panic.I just put 3 more bottles from 3 seperate crates in the fridge wich I will open up in a few hours, I;m also gonna be testing one of the young kwak bottles(fingers crossed)
As for your hops, I don't think this is a likely cause, but others please correct me i I'm wrong. I will be back with feedback about the bottles in the fridge right now. worst case scenario 1ll 4 bottles are affected, I will replace everthing plastic before bottling the Choufe clone next week.

 

[Remos112]

Thanks for all the replies everybody a couple of things I have learned so far:
-Don't mill where you are about to pitch (airborn microbes)
-Improving my bottle sanitation rituals to make sure to kill wild yeast/and certain bacteria.
-Keep all lids on as long as possible to prevent fruitflies dropping any acetobacter friends
Thanks a lot for all the input!

 

[Remos112]

I did some more thinking and on this particular batch I did some more things wrong could this have contributed to foul tasting beer as well?

This kit used Saflager s-189 wich is a lager yeast, all my previous beers (20) were ales.

The kit recommended to ferment at 20C and then to lower the temperature to 15C wich made little sense to me. I downloaded the saflager instructions and saw 15c was possible but it would be on the higher side for this yeast. So I fermented the first 4 days at 15, after that let it rise to 20, the last week I dropped the temperature to 4c then bottled.

The bottles are currently in my basement, but since it is summer it is probably warmer then ideal for Lagers, it is around 20C at the time. Could this ruin the conditioning perhaps? Or do I definetely have an infection on my hands? The beer in the bottles is crystal clear without weird strands growin in it or anything.

 

[Remos112]

I wouldn't worry about using the hottest tap water possible, many wild yeasts and bacteria can survive in hot tap water. Unless your boiling for 10-15 min your susceptible to picking up something just as if you were using warm or cold tap water

I would do label removal and bottling as two different processes. The glue and label could be carrying a variety of things that you don't want in your beer. And, while Oxiclean will kill some things it's just that a cleaner not a sanitizer so there's still some organisms that you could pick up at this point.

If your not using a high pressure sprayer for the Star San when your bottling think about soaking them, spraying with a standard water bottle sprayer likely won't hit the whole bottle. I have a rubbermaid tote that I fill with about 3 gal of Star San solution and then put about a case worth of bottles in and let them soak as i'm bottling.

Very solid advice, at my next bottling session I will definetely soak my bottles in starsan as suggested!

 

[Kee]

Very solid advice, at my next bottling session I will definetely soak my bottles in starsan as suggested!

If your whole batch was bad, it probably wasn't your bottling process, although it doesn't hurt to be extra careful after an infected batch (assuming that's what it was.)

 

[hlmbrwng]

Thanks for all the replies everybody a couple of things I have learned so far:
-Don't mill where you are about to pitch (airborn microbes)
-Improving my bottle sanitation rituals to make sure to kill wild yeast/and certain bacteria.
-Keep all lids on as long as possible to prevent fruitflies dropping any acetobacter friends
Thanks a lot for all the input!

An interesting thing about fruit flies...
I had a lot of them this summer in the kitchen. When I did a hefe, they really liked the smell of the banana. So there were lots of fruit flies that got into the fermentation wine fridge. That batch was fine. The next batch was the first one that got infected, and the fermentor really wreaked of a plastic. There is another smell that I can't quite put my finger on.
The only time I smelled these before was when I was trying to make a starter with dregs of a Trillium Raspberry Soak. After a few days there was no activity (unless i just missed it). But after a few days of being "standing" wort (I did not yet have my stir plate and mistakenly used a stopper instead of tin foil), it started to give off a similar smell. I thought it was just from the stopper. In this case, there were some fruit flies I would see every once in a while.

But in the fermentor, the stopper is on securely. I haven't seen any flies in the beer itself. I see them in some of my airlocks, but I'm not too concerned since the beers are meant to be sours.

 

[hlmbrwng]

I also got an infection on my first all grain batch. I decided it was from mashing in too close to where I pitched the yeast. I've read that grain should be handled in a separate area because the dust carries microbes. After that, I did just that - did all the grain handling in a separate area. There were 2 or 3 infected batches before I realized what was wrong. Bleached everything. Next batch was also infected. I use a bucket for fermenting, so replaced the bucket and all plastic gear. That took care of it - never had another infection, and that was four years ago.

I mash in the same spot I pitch the yeast. This is something I have considered before. The most handling I do is mixing the grain into the water, but I suppose this is enough to have grain dust floating around.

 

[Remos112]

I tasted the 3 bottles each from a different crate, and the are equally disgustingly sour. I think it is safe to say the entire batch is lost.Oh well, hopefully the kwak batch isn't

 

[Remos112]

Any possible harm in riding this out one more month? The amount of co2 doesn't seem to be increasing, not to dangerous levels anyway so a bottle bomb would seem unlikely, or would this simply be pointless? The crates are in my basement so not really in the way or anything

 

[bolus14]

Only harm would be bottle bombs. Otherwise, never hurts to try and give it a little more time to see if it ages out, but given your description of how things are I think those chances are slim.

If you have the space and extra bottles let it ride.

 

[Transamguy77]

I had an infection problem awhile ago and it turned out it was where I was pitching and fermenting, it was in my basement in an old house. There was something in the air down there that was causing the problem.

It took a few months and a few dumpers before I figured it out. I started fermenting in a different part of the house and didn't have a problem after that.

As far as bottling I would get yourself a bottle washer that goes on your faucet and a vinator to sanitize the bottles. A couple of squirts into the bottle is all you need, saves a lot of time and uses only a little bit of starsan.

Hope you get your problem figured out soon and the frustration doesn't drive you crazy.

 

[Remos112]

Only harm would be bottle bombs. Otherwise, never hurts to try and give it a little more time to see if it ages out, but given your description of how things are I think those chances are slim.

If you have the space and extra bottles let it ride.

Thanks
I will let them be for time being. I did open one up yesterday and put it in a mason jar wich I will periodically open to let ogyxen in, if this gives me vinegar in no time it must be Acetobacter and there is no way this batch is salvagable.
[edit] I opened the mason jar and the sour smell has gone away, and now it smells like plain apple juice. weird[/edit]

 

[Remos112]

I had an infection problem awhile ago and it turned out it was where I was pitching and fermenting, it was in my basement in an old house. There was something in the air down there that was causing the problem.

It took a few months and a few dumpers before I figured it out. I started fermenting in a different part of the house and didn't have a problem after that.

As far as bottling I would get yourself a bottle washer that goes on your faucet and a vinator to sanitize the bottles. A couple of squirts into the bottle is all you need, saves a lot of time and uses only a little bit of starsan.

Hope you get your problem figured out soon and the frustration doesn't drive you crazy.

Thanks I think it was something airborn as well, good tip about the bottle washer though, thanks!

 

[hottpeper13]

Did you do anything to the oak chips to sanitize them? If not I would start there.

 

[Remos112]

Did you do anything to the oak chips to sanitize them? If not I would start there.

The instructions said nothing about this so I put sprayed them with starsan solution and put them in a hop bag an added at the same time as the yeast. But if this is where the infection is from, wouldn't it be detected earlier?
I tasted one beer only one week in the bottle and it tasted , young and undercarbed, but otherwise very good. Or is it possible id laid dorment all this time?

 

[hottpeper13]

All I know is my buddy only soaked his in whisky for a week and got contaminated. I start soaking mine on brew day and those beers go for 4 weeks in primary and so far all is good.

 

[Remos112]

All I know is my buddy only soaked his in whisky for a week and got contaminated. I start soaking mine on brew day and those beers go for 4 weeks in primary and so far all is good.

It is something that can't be dismissed I guess, thanks for your post

 

[hlmbrwng]

I believe boiling them is good for two reasons: sterilizing and remove potentially harsh flavors. For my last imperial stout, I ended up dumping the bourbon I first used to soak the oak cubes. The second round of bourbon ended up having softer flavors imparted on it from the oak. I used medium charred oak. I had issues with both American and French. I think boiling them to begin with would have been beneficial.

 

[hlmbrwng]

It took a few months and a few dumpers before I figured it out. I started fermenting in a different part of the house and didn't have a problem after that.

This concerns me. I think that something is in the fermentation chamber and I will be do a deep clean. Also, the kitchen could probably use a good cleaning as well. But I have no where else to brew right now and I only have one fermentation chamber...not really looking forward to buying another fridge at the moment.

Do you feel that with a good enough clean, most environmental issues could be resolved? I haven't had problems before the last two batches, but I do understand that this problematic yeast (i think it's a brett) is in the air. But how likely is this to be a problem?

 

[hlmbrwng]

I have been considering getting the SS Brewtech 14 gal BME fermenter. Currently, I am afraid of both the fermentation chamber (fridge) and air in brewing space giving me issues. As an added reason for getting this, I realize that I will be controlling the temperature with the FTSs2 kit, so no fridge needed, and that I can pump the wort from the kettle directly into the fermenter, minimizing exposure to the ambient air. Of course, I will need to open the fermenter briefly to pitch the yeast.

Thoughts?

 

[Transamguy77]

This concerns me. I think that something is in the fermentation chamber and I will be do a deep clean. Also, the kitchen could probably use a good cleaning as well. But I have no where else to brew right now and I only have one fermentation chamber...not really looking forward to buying another fridge at the moment.



Do you feel that with a good enough clean, most environmental issues could be resolved? I haven't had problems before the last two batches, but I do understand that this problematic yeast (i think it's a brett) is in the air. But how likely is this to be a problem?

Well I ONLY replaced my transfer hoses with new ones and I used a heavy bleach and water solution to thoroughly clean everything else. You could also after a good clean put your fridge not in the sun to help kill stuff off.

Is where your fermenting at in a damp or no airflow space? I was in the basement with stagnant air. You might have to try fermenting somewhere else just to see if there is a change and use a swamp cooler to keep your temps down.

If it's an airborne problem your going to have to go outside the box to figure it out which is also why it's so frustrating. Brew something simple and low gravity so if you have to dump it it's not a big loss.

 

[Remos112]

The mason jar with beer smells less sour everyday, it is still crystal clear beer. Could this be an indiction something else is/was going on?

 

[Remos112]

Could it be acetaldehyde from bottle carbing warmer then desired for a lager? (+/- 23C)

 

[hlmbrwng]

There is plenty of airflow where I am brewing. I brew in the kitchen and have the windows open, but with the screens in place.
The only beers I store in the basement for fermentation and aging are sour beers.

You are right that I should brew something simple. Maybe I should make a couple of gallons and split the batch. I can put one gallon in the fridge during fermentation and another in a room that I'm pretty sure would not share the same issue. And maybe a third in the kitchen outside of the fermentation chamber. This way I can possibly tell if it is the kitchen itself or the fridge.