240v heatstick idea

[Merlyn77]

I finally moved into a house and now my little hide in the closet because it's ugly brewery is getting it's own space in the garage. Down here in South Texas the washer and dryer is also in the garage. I figure this opens me up to the possibility of going electric without installing a breaker and new outlet. Unfortunately I won't be able to use the dryer when I'm brewing, but I'm ok with that.

I'm a broke graduate student but safety comes first. Here is my current idea. It sounds fine to me but I would like those that have been in the game a bit longer to help me find its flaws. I want to use the stick on automatic to bring my up hlt water to strike temp. After mashing I will transfer the stick to the bk and switch it to manual for my boil. Right now I have 3 pots so I don't mess with recirculation or anything like that.

I will be following the other heat stick examples I've found in the forums (The ultimate heat stick by air balancer being the main one) with a few modifications.

I want to install a small controller box (PID, SSR, and all the goodies) on the end of the stick.
The heat element is at the bottom. It threads into a stainless elbow. A copper pipe is soldered onto the elbow and goes to the top of the kettle. It meets another elbow that rests on the lip of my keggle. That then feeds into my controller box. Out of the controller box I have my 10/3 wire going to my 240v dryer receptacle. The temperature probe will run into another smaller copper pipe that will follow the larger one into the keggle.

Does this all make sense and does anyone see any problems with it?

Thanks in advance for all your help. These forums have helped me a lot during the past four years of brewing.

Heating element - Camco Mfg 5500W 240V Ripp Element
Also, I was thinking about this package. Will that do the job or should I order through Auber?

 

[nostalgia]

I have one question: how will you attach the heating element to the elbow?

-Joe

 

[Walker]

Down here in South Texas the washer and dryer is also in the garage. I figure this opens me up to the possibility of going electric without installing a breaker and new outlet.

< snip >

I'm a broke graduate student but safety comes first.

If safety really does come first for you, then you are probably still going to have to install a new breaker. I doubt the dryer is on a GFCI breaker.

Plus, if it's a 3-bladed outlet, it isn't offering you a proper ground wire.... just two hots and a neutral.

Those are two pretty big safety concerns right there. "Safety first" would mean putting in the new GFCI breaker and a 4-blade receptacle. At which point, you might as well add a new dedicated brewery circuit.

 

[wyzazz]

I think that your "small controller box" is going to be much larger than you think.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

If safety really does come first for you, then you are probably still going to have to install a new breaker. I doubt the dryer is on a GFCI breaker.

Plus, if it's a 3-bladed outlet, it isn't offering you a proper ground wire.... just two hots and a neutral.

Those are two pretty big safety concerns right there. "Safety first" would mean putting in the new GFCI breaker and a 4-blade receptacle. At which point, you might as well add a new dedicated brewery circuit.

Wouldn't a 3-wire be 2 hots and a ground?

Either way, OP would still need/want to include GFCI protection.

Ed

 

[Homercidal]

Had the same basic idea. Machine guys out back said it would be no problem to build up, but of course you'd want it GFCI to start with. And I would include some sort of potting material on the inside to prevent danger from leakage.

I'll probably get around to doing this come spring, or once I get my heatstick controller built.

 

[Walker]

Wouldn't a 3-wire be 2 hots and a ground?

Possibly, but it's more likely the neutral and hots.

The 3-prong NAME 10 style of connectors are still used for dryers, even though NEMA 14 style (4-prong) is preferred. But, nema 10's are still legal for dryers under clauses in the NEC.

When NEMA 10's are used, they are SUPPOSED to be hot-hot-neutral, and the dryer body is allowed to be 'grounded' via the neutral.

 

[Walker]

This is from wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt:

NEMA 10
NEMA 10-30

NEMA 10 devices are a curious throwback to an earlier time. They are classified as 125/250 V non-grounding (hot-hot-neutral), yet they are usually used in a manner that effectively grounds the appliance, though not in a manner consistent with most modern practice.

As commonly used, 10&#8211;30 and 10&#8211;50 plugs have the frame of the appliance grounded through the neutral blade. This was a legal grounding method under the National Electrical Code for electric ranges and electric clothes dryers from the 1947 to the 1996 edition. Since North American dryers and ranges have certain parts (timers, lights, fans, etc.) that run on 120 V, this means that the wire used for grounding is also carrying current. Although this is contrary to modern grounding practice, such installations remain common in the United States and are relatively safe, because the larger conductors used are less likely to be broken than the smaller conductors used in ordinary appliance cords, and the current carried is small.

Persons moving their older appliances to newer NEMA-14-equipped buildings (or vice-versa) should have the cords replaced by a qualified electrician.

 

[Walker]

FYI... the receptacles (NEMA 10) I am talking about look like this:

There are even older ones (NEMA 6) ones that look like this:

Those NEMA 6 ones are supposed to be hot-hot-ground.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Thanks Walker.

So if you confirm it is wired as Hot, Hot, Neutral, it "could" be fairly easy to turn it into a 4 wire... Right? You could run a separate solid conductor ground from the Panel to the Box and just replace the receptacle.

 

[Walker]

Thanks Walker.

So if you confirm it is wired as Hot, Hot, Neutral, it "could" be fairly easy to turn it into a 4 wire... Right? You could run a separate solid conductor ground from the Panel to the Box and just replace the receptacle.

Yeah, I think so, but I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. I don't know what is or isn't legal.

Oh... and if you did that, you couldn't plug the dryer in anymore.

 

[superscifi12]

Oh... and if you did that, you couldn't plug the dryer in anymore.

A $10 to $15 pigtail from the hardware store would change that - If you can run a phillips screw driver.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yeah, I think so, but I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. I don't know what is or isn't legal.

Oh... and if you did that, you couldn't plug the dryer in anymore.

Legal smeegal, and you can dry your clothes in the oven... You gotta have your priorities right.

 

[Merlyn77]

Thanks for all the chat. It has been very helpful.

I'm renting for the next two years and would have to talk to my landlord about a gfci breaker. It currently is the 3 prong NEMA 10 receptacle. The hot-hot-neutral I believe. I will speak with a local electrician about the grounding issue come next week if no one on the forums has answer.

Yeah, I'm sure my small controller box will be bigger than I imagine and that's ok. As long as I can screw a handle on it and move it when needed I'm ok with it. As of right now I still have to lift the mlt onto a high ledge to gravity feed my wort into a bk that sits on my propane burner stand. This will be a huge improvement.

As for the potting material I believe I'm going to fill it all with jbweld just in case there is ever a leak.

I haven't come to a final answer on connecting the heating element to the elbow yet. I don't know if I can get an elbow large enough to just screw the element into or if I'll have to go the triclover route or what.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Possibly, but it's more likely the neutral and hots.

The 3-prong NAME 10 style of connectors are still used for dryers, even though NEMA 14 style (4-prong) is preferred. But, nema 10's are still legal for dryers under clauses in the NEC.

When NEMA 10's are used, they are SUPPOSED to be hot-hot-neutral, and the dryer body is allowed to be 'grounded' via the neutral.

You're aware that Neutral and Ground, although separated on the circuit side are on the same Bus at the panel, right?

The three wire configuration is defined as two hots and a ground, and typically the ground wire in those configs is a smaller gauge than the current carrying lines. In 4-wire you have three equally sized/gauged wires plus a fourth smaller gauge wire that may or may not be shielded.
The ground wire is smaller and may be un shielded because it is not intended to carry a current, ever. Only in a fault condition will that wire carry any kind of current.

 

[enkindler]

I wouldn't worry about the equipment ground, GFCI doesn't require one to work, you can even get plug in adapters for 240 GFCI.

GFCI is what will save your life but I do have another issue with your setup.

Why don't you just rent a conduit punch for an hour, punch your pot and put in a normal hot water heater element.

Then you won't have this massive top heavy electrical heat stick with junction box hanging off of a pot of scalding hot water.

You will save a lot of money in parts too.

 

[ElDuderino]

Have you used a conduit punch on a keg, enkindler? I only ask because stainless is so much harder than the material listed for the greenlee punch I just looked at (10 awg mild steel, aluminum, fiberglass and plastic) and it would suck to break your rent a punch... I think kegs are 18 awg. But I think it's a great idea if it works! Can you describe a little how you use one, for future reference?

 

[enkindler]

ElDunderino,

The ones you rent tend to be hydraulic conduit punch but yes even the Greenlee ones work fine, it just wears the cutting surface faster but it will not break.

 

[nostalgia]

I haven't come to a final answer on connecting the heating element to the elbow yet. I don't know if I can get an elbow large enough to just screw the element into or if I'll have to go the triclover route or what.

You can get a 1" pipe elbow, that's not the problem. The problem is the threads on the element are on the wrong side. Heating elements are designed to thread in from the outside in. In your diagram, the threads would be on the left side, not the right where they need to be to thread into the elbow.

Here's a shot of my tri-clover version. The element threads in from the left side of the fitting in this picture.

-Joe

 

[P-J]

This mighy help:
http://www.harborfreight.com/knockout-punch-kit-91201.html for $24.99 There is a store near you in Portland.

Die sizes
(actual hole size x pipe diameter):
7/8" x 1/2"
1.115" x 3/4"
1.362" x 1"
1-11/16" x 1-1/4 "
1-15/16" x 1-1/2"

 

[Merlyn77]

Since I wanted to both heat my hlt and boil with it I figured a movable heat stick with built in temp probe would save me having to buy 2 heating elements, drilling two holes, and creating a larger control box. I've been moving around quite a bit and don't even have a brew stand built so attaching a permanent control box is out of the question at the moment. I'll be leaving in a little over a year and on to the next unknown location.

Thanks for the picture nostalgia. That looks like exactly what I will be trying to do. I suppose I will have to order those tri-clover clamps.

From what I've gathered so far I need to:
Install gfci breaker
Continue to use the 3 prong outlet

 

[Merlyn77]

After pricing out going all stainless with the tri-clover clamps I decided it will be easier to just buy two heating elements and mount them in each keggle.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Walker]

You're aware that Neutral and Ground, although separated on the circuit side are on the same Bus at the panel, right?

The three wire configuration is defined as two hots and a ground, and typically the ground wire in those configs is a smaller gauge than the current carrying lines. In 4-wire you have three equally sized/gauged wires plus a fourth smaller gauge wire that may or may not be shielded.
The ground wire is smaller and may be un shielded because it is not intended to carry a current, ever. Only in a fault condition will that wire carry any kind of current.

Yes, I am aware of all of this.

Not sure if there was some point to your post??