20 or 25 gallon Concord (80 vs 100 qt)

[Lambo3]

I'm building a bigger 3 vessel system, and I have 15 gallon keggles that I'll be using for HLT, and MLT. I'm debating on getting the concord 20 or 25 gallon for the boil kettle, for the purpose of doing 12.5 to 15 gallon batches for thinner lower octane beers. I'll probably most commonly do 10g batches. The concord I'm looking at is the cheaper ones (no triclad bottom), as I'll be going electric.

I'm thinking that a 15 gallon batch might not cut it in the 20 gallon? I'd need to start with at least 17g. Of course, I want to eat my cake too... I'd like to effectively drop down to 6 gallon batches now and then, and maybe the 25 gallon is getting a bit to big for this?

So choices, I can live with a max batch size of 12.5 gallons, if the 20 is a better all around vessel for this, but, if it doesn't matter, I'll go for the 25.

 

[augiedoggy]

I brew 11 (12-13g preboil) gallon brews in my 15 gallon bayou kettle with electric without issues... with electric boil overs are not a concern once you know what your doing. I also do 6 gallons without issues. although I must admit I found them more challenging to keep under wraps with my 5500w element than my old 4500w elements..

 

[wilserbrewer]

I have done 15.5, or 1/2B batches in a 20 and 24 gallon kettles. I find the larger kettle a better option.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have done 15.5, or 1/2B batches in a 20 and 24 gallon kettles. I find the larger kettle a better option.

Do you have boil control? I could be wrong but I thought you just plug in two separate 120v elements and run them at 100% power for your boil? If so, this would be a night and day difference over a controlled heat source like cooking over a fire vs stove....
This would also be one of the trade offs of not having good control over your heat output.

With a pid all one has to do it set the alarm to go off or the pid to stop at sat 208 degrees and then put it in manual mode and watch it as it comes to a boil regulating the boil down until you get past the hotbreak point and risk of boilover...

 

[wilserbrewer]

I've done it several ways Auggie...electric, natural gas, and propane.

A 20 gallon is on the cusp for 15 gallon batches, a 25 is more appropriate IMO regardless.

Will a 20 work, of course. But I feel a 25 is a better choice.

The op's question can't really be answered unless he states how many small batches vs large batches he will be doing.

It is inconvenient using a kettle that is too large as well as too small.

If the op also wants to frequently brew 6 gallon batches, the 25 is too large.

If he is going to settle doing 15 gallon batches, The 25 is a better choice IMO.

Where should the compromise be?

 

[augiedoggy]

I've done it several ways Auggie...electric, natural gas, and propane.

A 20 gallon is on the cusp for 15 gallon batches, a 25 is more appropriate IMO regardless.

Will a 20 work, of course. But I feel a 25 is a better choice.

The op's question can't really be answered unless he states how many small batches vs large batches he will be doing.

It is inconvenient using a kettle that is too large as well as too small.

If the op also wants to frequently brew 6 gallon batches, the 25 is too large.

If he is going to settle on15 doing 15 gallon batches, The 25 is a better choice.

Where should the compromise be?

Ok you avoided answering my question so I'll take it you dont have element temp control in your setup...?

And yeah propane and gas is less forgiving for headspace when brewing, thats why I was specifically commenting on using electric as having that advantage WITH instant linear element power and heat control, and with the fact that you dont have that I would expect you to have formed the opinion you have. I know your a firm believer of being a minimalist and keeping things as simple as possible but your at a disadvantage here with plugging in and uplugging one or more of your elements and still having one element boiling away at full power whenever its plugged in. You would have less control over the boil and boilovers. and less ability to compensate.

As far as opinions on the size of the batch being a real compromise? Again that also depends on a couple other factors mainly the size differential and the dimensions of the kettles. This is why the taller narrow kettles are a better choice not only because they are more efficient as far as producing a better boil with less steam and waste but you get a deeper depth of wort with less liquid needed. We are taking about a narrow (say a 15" wide kettle). They are simply more versatile and forgiving.
My 16 gallon 15.5" wide electric kettle works just as good for brewing 5 or 6 gallons as a 10 gallon kettle which can be found in the same or close to the same diameter... I dont find brewing 5 or 6 gallons any more of an inconvenience than brewing 11 gallons with the dimension kettles I chose.
now if someone uses kettles that are wider than they are tall then yeah 5 gallons isnt going to fill them very high at all and you would have issues with the elements possibly being submerged well they simply wont be as forgiving to either batch size... and the fact that I can actually control the heat output of my 4500w or 5500w element also has a major advantage making its performance equally suited for 5 or 10 gallon batches of beer.

The whole diameter thing comes into play with conical or fermenter choices as well. I have 2 12.5 gallon conicals and although I usually fill both of them with 10.5gallons or wort after brewing, the 12" wide taller stout conical has never had krausen reach the blowoff tube that I can recall but the 15.5" wide shorter conical I have often gets messy with krausen coming out of the blowoff tube due to the shorter amount of headspace. and I also ironically cant keep temps on my short wide conical with only 5 gallons in it because the 5 gallons of wort doesnt even fill the tank high enough to reach above the conical cone and the cooling coils above it on the tank sidewalls.... This as well as the yeast falling better in the cone portion makes the narrow conical a much better choice.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Here is a link to Blichmann's recommended kettle sizes for a 3v system.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/boilermaker

 

[augiedoggy]

Here is a link to Blichmann's recommended kettle sizes for a 3v system.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/boilermaker

ok thats thier opinion... My opinion on that is blichmanns is likely a biased one possibly based on the dimensions they offer on their kettles or to make more revenue off more expensive options offered to the high amount of brewing Newbies that will spend more money coming into the hobby with blichmann before they really know what they do and dont need... Plus more importantly AGAIN, THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS ARE ONE SIZE FITS ALL and not specifically for electric where you dont NEED the additional headspace with the right equipment! and that is what all my comments have been about.

Blichmann is like the Harley davidson of the home brewing world taking advantage of the executives and baby boomers that know nothing of bikes when they buy that 883 sportster new of the floor with less power than a yamaha vtwin 650 sold for half the price.. all they know is its the best and whatever they recommend is best.. They oversimplify things in some cases to make it easier on their customer service. better to oversell than risk recommending something that gets used in a way where its not ideal for the job.

In any case here it seems your intentionally dancing around the points I was making even though I'm talking about first hand experience with something I actually brew on and your linking things non specific to what im talking about that your finding on the net to argue against my experiences with my brewing rig?

Lets here about the equipment you use and that you formed your opinions on? that would be more beneficial here in helping other develop thier own opinion. Are your kettles the wider or as wide as they are tall? and more importantly the fact that your seemingly ignoring that temp control can can make any difference in controlling and preventing boilovers.

 

[augiedoggy]

I think most people if not all that have gone from just having only on and off heat control to an heat source they can instantly control will tell you that they are able to control and prevent boil over much more easily with electric and this control.

With gas you have the actual kettle (especially) the tri clad bottom kettles that retain the heat so there a large time delay between you turning down the heat and the temps the wort sees casing the boil to drop.

 

[wilserbrewer]

In any case here it seems your intentionally dancing around the points I was making even though I'm talking about first hand experience with something I actually brew on and your linking things non specific to what im talking about that your finding on the net to argue against my experiences with my brewing rig?

Please Auggie....I'm not here to argue.

Point I am trying to make is that IME and IMO, a 20 gallon kettle is a little small for 15 gallon batches regardless of how wonderful ones system may be at controlling power while coming to boil. Since the OP didn't specifically state 15G to fermenter, or finished volume for consumption, I added that possibility in as well as most here keg in 5 gallon increments using corny kegs, or 5 1/6 gallon increments using Sanke kegs. With such large batches, kettle losses and perhaps fermenter losses can be substantial that push one very close to 20 gallons pre boil volume, that's all!

I've never had an issue or a concern with boil over with these large batches as I have always been somewhat "underpowered" when stepping up to these larger batches, but have always recognized a nice sufficient boil with reasonable boil off.

Yea, I think a 25 gallon is a better option, Blichmann thinks a 30 gallon, and Augggie using his system thinks a 20 gallon is best! Opinions, that's all they are....

There is no kettle size that is "best" for variable batch sizes, all depends on how many of each size batch the user will perform. Some have the opinion that a little extra room in the kettle is nice, some like to boil near the rim....whatever floats your boat, both work....

If by chance the OP is looking to fill 3 corny kegs, or 15 gallons consumable, I feel a 20 gallon kettle may be a little tight, that's all....

Designing a system that works perfectly for varied batch sizes from 6 - 15 gallons isn't reality in my opinion. Perhaps the OP should get two kettles and a Hot Rod Heatstick from Brewhardware.com

 

[augiedoggy]

Your still missing my point. Your lumping everything into a one size fits all opinion based upon only what you've used.
When in reality there are other factors that can make one thing work better than others depending on the situation.. You often like to point out that you don't believe temp control is important and I believe this is why your taking this stance here.

 

[Lambo3]

Howdy folks... thanks for all of the thought you guys have put into your posts.

We're all friends here right?

This is kind of a garbage question, now that I think about it. It is very subjective. As other's have stated, if I want to do a lot of 15g brewing, I'd agree, the 25 gallon is the best choice. I wish there was a taller narrower version of a cost effective kettle like the concord. I think a 20g megapot (1.2 version) probably does 15g batches pretty effectively because you'll have more headspace than the 19" wide concord would.

I think for me, the 20g will be fine, mainly because most of the time I'll be doing 10g batches. It really comes down to fermenter size and bottling day. I keg, so, the ideal batch ends up in 5g increments. I might invest in a couple 2.5, or 3g kegs so I can do 13g batches, and still have an easy bottling day. If I really want to do a 15g batch (which will probably be rare) maybe I'll use some kind of anti foaming agent.

 

[mikescooling]

It sounds like the 20 is the size for you, and IMHO it's a great size. I run three 25 gallon pots on a E-brew rig. It's a risk of running the element dry when you do small batches, and you still have big pot brew house losses.

 

[augiedoggy]

Howdy folks... thanks for all of the thought you guys have put into your posts.

We're all friends here right?

This is kind of a garbage question, now that I think about it. It is very subjective. As other's have stated, if I want to do a lot of 15g brewing, I'd agree, the 25 gallon is the best choice. I wish there was a taller narrower version of a cost effective kettle like the concord. I think a 20g megapot (1.2 version) probably does 15g batches pretty effectively because you'll have more headspace than the 19" wide concord would.

exactly what I was talking about with the kettle dimensions.. I'm glad you see at least what I was trying to say.
if your brewing 15 gallons with propane then I agree that something bigger than 20 gallons may work better with less work or mess.

 

[augiedoggy]

It sounds like the 20 is the size for you, and IMHO it's a great size. I run three 25 gallon pots on a E-brew rig. It's a risk of running the element dry when you do small batches, and you still have big pot brew house losses.

Again this depends on the dimensions of the pot... If you stick with the common 15-16 inch diameter kettles than you can brew 5 gallons in a 20 gallon kettle with absolutely no worried of exposing the element because the height of the wort would be the same as it would in a cheaper wider 15 gallon concord kettle or any smaller kettle or keggle of the same diameter as an example.. the kettle being taller is the only difference in that case. my 16 gallon HLT and 15 gallon BK is the same diameter as my old Ballington 13 gallon and keggle therefore both upgrades with no disadvantage.

I really wish I had a cool cad app too plug some kettle specs in and show volume levels...

 

[Thorsbrew]

Again this depends on the dimensions of the pot... If you stick with the common 15-16 inch diameter kettles than you can brew 5 gallons in a 20 gallon kettle with absolutely no worried of exposing the element because the height of the wort would be the same as it would in a cheaper wider 15 gallon concord kettle or any smaller kettle or keggle of the same diameter as an example.. the kettle being taller is the only difference in that case. my 16 gallon HLT and 15 gallon BK is the same diameter as my old Ballington 13 gallon and keggle therefore both upgrades with no disadvantage.

I really wish I had a cool cad app too plug some kettle specs in and show volume levels...

This is also a question i've pondered when im ready to order this size (20 vs 25 gallon concord) so i'd like also appreciate a concrete answer on this.....5/6 gallon batches in a 25 gallon concord is not possible? 20 gallon is possible?

 

[augiedoggy]

This is also a question i've pondered when im ready to order this size (20 vs 25 gallon concord) so i'd like also appreciate a concrete answer on this.....5/6 gallon batches in a 25 gallon concord is not possible? 20 gallon is possible?

well its easy enough to figure out if you look at the diameters of the kettles your comparing.

the concords are as wide as they are tall so with electric immersion elements I would guess they would not be a great choice for smaller batches... this is likely one of the reasons they are so cheap yet still not more popular.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

.

Blichmann is like the Harley davidson of the home brewing world taking advantage of the executives and baby boomers that know nothing of bikes when they buy that 883 sportster new of the floor with less power than a yamaha vtwin 650 sold for half the price..

You mean like this 650...Had to throw that in

 

[mikescooling]

This is also a question i've pondered when im ready to order this size (20 vs 25 gallon concord) so i'd like also appreciate a concrete answer on this.....5/6 gallon batches in a 25 gallon concord is not possible? 20 gallon is possible?

I don't like my element any where near the surface of the pot. So IMHO, I like to do at least 7 gallon boils. I don't tip the pot to drain it, so I leave a lot of wort there. But you could do 6 gallon boils in the 25 gallon CC Pot. If you plan on doing 6 gallon boils, it would be a poor choice. The 20 gallon pot would be a much better choice for smaller batches. 20 gallons is possible from this pot, but you're pushing the limits of the pot. It's going to be full. All that said this pot does have a large sweet spot for brewing different amounts. Just not at the point your running it at 1/5th capacity or filling it to the edge.

 

[Thorsbrew]

I don't like my element any where near the surface of the pot. So IMHO, I like to do at least 7 gallon boils. I don't tip the pot to drain it, so I leave a lot of wort there. But you could do 6 gallon boils in the 25 gallon CC Pot. If you plan on doing 6 gallon boils, it would be a poor choice. The 20 gallon pot would be a much better choice for smaller batches. 20 gallons is possible from this pot, but you're pushing the limits of the pot. It's going to be full. All that said this pot does have a large sweet spot for brewing different amounts. Just not at the point your running it at 1/5th capacity or filling it to the edge.

Sorry, you misunderstand. I meant if 5 gallons isnt possible in the 25 gallon pot it definitely is in the 20 gallon pot? (not is 20 gallons possible in the 25 gallon pot). But i assume it is based on these responses

 

[wilserbrewer]

This is also a question i've pondered when im ready to order this size (20 vs 25 gallon concord) so i'd like also appreciate a concrete answer on this.....5/6 gallon batches in a 25 gallon concord is not possible? 20 gallon is possible?

Concrete answer, sorry they don't exist.

I would guess you may have trouble mashing with a basket recirculating a 5 gallon batch with both a 20 or 25 due to the large volume under the basket.

If your asking just about boiling, well that depends entirely how low you mount the element and how wide the kettle is.

 

[Lambo3]

Part of the concern beyond the depth of a bigger part is also the increased diameter... You end up with more boil off than you need, forcing you to start with a larger volume.

If I was really that concerned, i would get a megapot. Sure, you'll pay a couple hundred more maybe, but how many years will You use it? Might be worth getting what one wants up front.

 

[augiedoggy]

Part of the concern beyond the depth of a bigger part is also the increased diameter... You end up with more boil off than you need, forcing you to start with a larger volume.

If I was really that concerned, i would get a megapot. Sure, you'll pay a couple hundred more maybe, but how many years will You use it? Might be worth getting what one wants up front.

I bought bayou classic kettles.. $125 each for 16 gallon kettles with ballvalves, the are almost identical in size to a keggle (15.5" wide) the amount of boiloff does vary with power to the element (another advantage to element control since I can dial it right in) but your right about more open surface area causing more boiloff... when we brew at my friends he uses a wide kettle on propane and he gets a lot more boiloff... he has noticed this too and is looking for a taller kettle now

 

[augiedoggy]

You mean like this 650...Had to throw that in

Did you really put harley badges on that yamaha? Nobody has given you grief for that yet?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Did you really put harley badges on that yamaha? Nobody has given you grief for that yet?

HAHA...Its not a Harley badge. It says JT customs, it came with the bike so I left it.

It a fun buzz around town bike, definitely lacking top end. It's screamin on the highway that I only go on for an exit or two. I have another bike set up for my wife and myself for any longer runs.

 

[augiedoggy]

HAHA...Its not a Harley badge. It says JT customs, it came with the bike so I left it.

It a fun buzz around town bike, definitely lacking top end. It's screamin on the highway that I only go on for an exit or two. I have another bike set up for my wife and myself for any longer runs.

I have a vstar 1100 myself.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I have a vstar 1100 myself.

Nice that's a perfect size. I stole mine from a guy on craigslist that was filing for bankruptcy and unloading it. I couldn't say no.

 

[Lambo3]

HAHA...Its not a Harley badge. It says JT customs, it came with the bike so I left it.

It a fun buzz around town bike, definitely lacking top end. It's screamin on the highway that I only go on for an exit or two. I have another bike set up for my wife and myself for any longer runs.

I once had to put a harley tire on my Honda V65 (1100 V4). It was in the middle of a trip, and the harley dealer was the only place that had the tire and could get it on in time. I took a lot of grief having a tire on a honda that said "harley davidson".

Okay, back on topic - my wife ended up buying me the 20g concord for my birthday, so that decision is made.

 

[augiedoggy]

I once had to put a harley tire on my Honda V65 (1100 V4). It was in the middle of a trip, and the harley dealer was the only place that had the tire and could get it on in time. I took a lot of grief having a tire on a honda that said "harley davidson".

Okay, back on topic - my wife ended up buying me the 20g concord for my birthday, so that decision is made.

lol dont feel bad that harley davidson tire is made in my home town... At the japanese owned Sumitomo rubber plant formerly known as dunlop tire...ironically Honda cars are the most american made vehicle on the road today... Victory bikes supposedly are more american made than a harley... Apparently harley chose to invest in marketing and the fact that they can still call do final assembly and paint here which makes it american made.. and the "legend" means more than the reality to most I guess.

 

[Lambo3]

lol dont feel bad that harley davidson tire is made in my home town... At the japanese owned Sumitomo rubber plant formerly known as dunlop tire...ironically Honda cars are the most american made vehicle on the road today... Victory bikes supposedly are more american made than a harley... Apparently harley chose to invest in marketing and the fact that they can still call do final assembly and paint here which makes it american made.. and the "legend" means more than the reality to most I guess.

My next road bike will be a Victory.... they are nice machines. It is smoothest big Vtwin I've ever been on that is still a single pin crank.