1904 worlds fair sourdough yeast starter for a mead?

[CharlieB59]

We have had a sourdough yeast started in my family that has been passed down over the years from the 1904 worlds fair, we have used it to make waffles and bread all this time, and I'm extremely curious as to how it might work for me in a batch of mead.. Any thoughts?

 

[Illuveatar]

Does the starter also have lactobacilli in it ? That's what gives sourdough the sour flavor, it's bacteria which converts sugars to lactic acid.

I think it's amazing that you have a living family heirloom like that, and it can't hurt to give it a try.

I think lactobacilli is sometimes used in malolactic fermentation which is used to soften or round out the mouthfeel of wines by converting malic acid to lactic acid. I don't know how much malic acid is in honey but this is definitely worth a try. Though it may end up quite sour tasting, if the bacteria converts the honey to lactic acid rather than consuming the malic acid. maybe others could suggest a recipe to try, I don't have enough experience with MLF to advise.

 

[fatbloke]

Whereas, I'm thinking that it might be capable of a very low gravity batch if at all.

It's not a yeast per se, but mimics the yeast reaction to convert sugars into gas and raise the bread that way, instead of producing alcohol and gas as the waste producy of metabolising the carbohydrates in the flour.

Rather than wasting some of it when it could make good bread, I suggest that you do a Google search on the reaction first, so you follow exactly how it works, before throwing the money at honey etc..........

 

[PDXBaker]

Over time, sourdough starters change to reflect the bacteria present where they live. That's why it is crap to buy a "Klondike" or "San Fransisco" starter. That said. There is nothing wrong with experimenting. Just don't think it is the same as in 1904. Very romantic, just not true.

 

[roadymi]

Over time, sourdough starters change to reflect the bacteria present where they live. That's why it is crap to buy a "Klondike" or "San Fransisco" starter. That said. There is nothing wrong with experimenting. Just don't think it is the same as in 1904. Very romantic, just not true.

Why rain on the parade? I think the important concept is that the family has kept this going this long. The original source is much less significant.

As to the original question............I have not a clue.

 

[saramc]

Family sourdough is definitely a point of pride and heritage! I remember my grandmother and mother with their sourdough pots.

I wonder if you can establish a ferment using the pot liqueur that sets itself up on top of stored sourdough starter?
I have a starter that we know goes back to late 1800s and came across the Atlantic with my maternal greatgrandmother from Lithuania. I have four siblings, and two living parents and I am now the only person in the family who has maintained the starter. No one on Mom's side kept it going..though my cousins just need contact me. I was given a sourdough pot (one of my grandmother's) full on my wedding day, 20+ years ago, and my Mom does not keep hers going as she just asks me for a cup when she has plans to use it.

If you try you will have to let me know, for the novelty of it!!

 

[PDXBaker]

Not trying to rain on the parade. Just debunking a myth. I hear this all the time and people "knead" to know what is really going on. I have no doubt these starters are a point of pride for families. I didn't tell anyone to stop feeding them or not use them. Just don't think it is the same as when your ancestors used it.

 

[PDXBaker]

You can certainly restart a sour that has separated. Just feed it as you normally would. It may take a few feedings to get active again. You can store sourdough in the fridge for extended periods of time. Use the white stuff not the clear liquid to restart your sour.

 

[saramc]

You can certainly restart a sour that has separated. Just feed it as you normally would. It may take a few feedings to get active again. You can store sourdough in the fridge for extended periods of time. Use the white stuff not the clear liquid to restart your sour.

Considering I have been using sourdough for more than 30 years I am quite competent with maintaining and storing.
We know the yeast colony is not what it was as when established. It is a family thing as I said.

And actually the pot liqueur can be drained off or stirred back in, most long time sourdough boys will say stir it back in...I have always stirred it back in, as I was taught, fed my starter like normal and gone about my business. But thank you.

 

[PDXBaker]

Your quite welcome.

 

[CharlieB59]

Wow, I'm suprised that this thread garnered this kind/ much attention so quickly, bulk replying to comments... Yes the yeast isn't "the same" as the starter 108 years ago, but it is directly descended... And just has been said, it's a family heirloom/ tradition of my fiancés family, and they have several recipes that have been passed down that call for this yeast (more for sentimental value and tradition of course), and I have done research into the reaction process, thank you for the idea sirs, I wonder how I can determine if it contains lactobacilli? Investigation under a microscope, and simply look for it? Or could I test/ have it tested by someone?

 

[biochemedic]

Sourdough starters are nearly always a mix of bacteria and yeast. I don't think there's any reason not to try this! Start small...make a mead must with a relatively low OG, perhaps even a beer-strength must of ~ 1.050. See what it can do...you will likely get all sorts of unique looking krausen and perhaps pellicles/funky looking stuff on the top, but I have no doubt it could make something very special that no one would be able to reproduce exactly! Keep good records...if it's really too sour, consider back sweetening it, or perhaps blending it with some sweet mead made separately (after stabilizing, of course...) If it takes 1.050 dry, keep experimenting and go a little higher... And be sure to keep good records (I'm saying this a second time on purpose!), and post pics! And send me a bottle!

 

[Illuveatar]

and post pics! And send me a bottle!

+1

I'm intrigued by this Sourmust Mead idea, try it and keep us posted.

 

[saramc]

You may see if a nearby college, microbiology class, will identify for you. They are always looking for things to culture in class. Or a freestanding lab, like Labcorp, etc...though may be costly.

Now I want to see what sourdough does to milk. I am an avid milk kefir maker and that culture is a myriad of 30+ organisms incl yeasts, lactobacillus, and others. Just has me curious...milk and wine coming up!!

 

[CharlieB59]

Again guys, thanks for all TE great responses, I DO have chem professor I know at a local community college, I'll give him a call.. And thanks @biochemed, I am pretty much on the same thought process as you, this is unique and there is really no reason I can "must"er for not trying this... Question, suggestions on how to back sweeten if I do get a sour mead?

 

[biochemedic]

I think that might also be a good question for your professor friend; my formal microbiology education was a long time ago, and now that I think about it I'm not sure how you would stabilize a sour product with both yeast and bacteria; clearly the yeast could be put into dormancy with sorbate and metabisulfite, but I'm not sure that would work for the lactobacillus, pedicoccus, etc. I suppose once the ABV got to a certain point, they wouldn't be able to go any more, but what that point would be is probably variable...if you were to do backsweetening, you would want to be very careful before bottling, and make sure you were fully stable on your gravity before packaging.

One other thought would be to do a low temp pasteurization process...

 

[sonofgrok]

It would be fairly easy to make up a quick slide and stain it. You would be able to see the difference between cell types of the yeast and bacteria fairly easily. The only way I could think to isolate either though would be to isolate a few cells and grow a new colony. Most chemistry separation methods that I can think of put you in temperatures where the cells will die. Depending on the bacteria, you may be able to use an antibiotic to kill the bacteria but not the yeast and grow a new culture with that. I am willing to bet there is more than one type of yeast and more than one type of bacteria in there though (and that is barring population mutations that have occurred since 1904 or whenever you said it originated) which would greatly complicate things.

 

[CharlieB59]

I've googled and researched the topic pretty thoroughly over the past day or so, I think I'm just going to take a sample to my friend and have it examined... Maybe from there we could work out a system of isolating the yeast(s) and starting a new colony.

 

[biochemedic]

Honestly, I really think you should just try and make a batch with the raw starter, just to see what happens...shoot, if you want to send me a sample, I'll do it!

 

[CharlieB59]

I'm all for that idea, being that this is my first ever mead, i dont have necessarily high expectations, nor will i be TOO upset if things dont work out.. but what is really the worst that can happen? i have a sour tasting mead? the lactobacillus causes an infection and ruins the batch?

 

[CharlieB59]

Alright guys, after extensive research on several of the points presented, namely the process of malolactic fermentation mentioned by Illuveatar, and practical mead making/ blending/ generally trying to make it work bushings of Biochemedic, I've decided to go ahead and make a batch. I'll workning tweaking my ingredients bill to meet a lower gravity mead on my brewing software when I get off tonight, but I suppose I will research a yeast that is known to produce higher levels of sweetness, and use that commercially sold yeast in primary, a

 

[CharlieB59]

And utilize that yeast in primary to render a sweet mead to start, taste test, and in secondary add the sourdough yeast, (as is common in malolactic fermentation) and any fruit I decide to use (I want to make an apple mint mead) but I think I'll forgo the addition and save it for another batch.

 

[biochemedic]

An interesting idea, to use it for a "secondary" fermentation; I'd be careful not to make the ABV too high, as your sourdough bugs may not be very well conditioned to be tolerant of alcohol, and you could just end up killing them when you add them...

 

[CharlieB59]

Bugs? As in bacteria? I plan to shoot for a lower ABV, but wouldn't the alcohol killing the bacteria be ideal? I figured most bacteria that is present in yeast had a decent alcohol tolerance if it was existing in an active culture (considering it is those bacteria that stick around long enough to cause infection in fermentation).

 

[biochemedic]

Bugs? As in bacteria? I plan to shoot for a lower ABV, but wouldn't the alcohol killing the bacteria be ideal? I figured most bacteria that is present in yeast had a decent alcohol tolerance if it was existing in an active culture (considering it is those bacteria that stick around long enough to cause infection in fermentation).

Yeah, my understanding is that a sourdough culture is a mixture of various yeast and bacteria. I wouldn't think so much of your culture "causing an infection" as much as it is souring the must. It almost is kind of like a Belgian lambic, or any of the sour Belgian beers that use both saccharomyces yeast as well as brettanomyces, and various bacterial (lactobacillus, pediococcus) to produce the flavors in the final product.

I think you could potentially get two very different products if you fermented with a brewing yeast then added the sourdough culture later vs fermenting primarily with the sourdough culture by itself (which is kind of what my original thoughts/reply was referring to). They might both be very good (or maybe not, who knows?!) but I'd bet at least they'd be different.

 

[weirdboy]

Bugs? As in bacteria? I plan to shoot for a lower ABV, but wouldn't the alcohol killing the bacteria be ideal? I figured most bacteria that is present in yeast had a decent alcohol tolerance if it was existing in an active culture (considering it is those bacteria that stick around long enough to cause infection in fermentation).

If your intent is to sour, then an infection is exactly what you are looking for.

 

[CharlieB59]

Well the intention is to use the historic yeast, the sour is an undesired quality, which I will just have to back sweeten to offset for. No big deal.

 

[CharlieB59]

Alright guys, sorry to leave anyone waiting with bated breath, but I've been on nights for tempest couple of weeks and haven't gotten on here... Moving forward with the Mead, as sad as it is to say, I don't believe the yeast is going to work 😔. I have made a starter from some honey and a yeast nutrient, and after 3 days there has been no noticeable yeast growth... I've read that there are forms of yeast that can't digest certain kinds of sugars... I can't imagine being such an impossible to digest sugar, but I don't see any progress. I'm gonna give it a little more time.. But I'm certain there isn't much more that can be done.