15% Crystal malt IMPERIAL STOUT

[rafaelpinto]

Hey fellows,

you guys dont seem to like a lot of crystal malt on your imperial stout recipes. Personally, I dont like dry imperial stouts that only focus on coffee notes. I tried Breakfast Stout and it did not impress me.

SO, if the intention is to brew a strong caramel, sweet chocolate flavored Imperial Stout, a little on the sweeter side, is it ok to use 15% of crystal and caramel malts on the grain bill? For exemple: 5% crystal 120, 5% special B and 5% dark caramel.

What if I also want strong biscuity, bready notes? Is it ok to replace 15-20% of base malt with something like Crystal 40, Carared or Caramunich I?

Of course it will have lots of unfermentable sugars - but it is ok, I dont mind finishing around 1035 (FG). Maybe this huge amounts of complex malts would require some diastatic malt (another 10%)?

What % of darker malts would you suggest to balance this thing up? Keep in mind that I dont want strong coffee flavors. Something like 10% Chocolate Malt + 5% Black Malt will be ok or too much?

THIS IS MY REFFERENCE:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98eMRFE5CyU[/ame]

 

[JKaranka]

What is the OG? I think it will be difficult to balance 35-40% pretty much crystal malts with roast malts. If I can give you some advice, use Amber and Brown malt for the bready notes you talk about, instead of C40. Amber malt will give toasty notes somewhat similar to Biscuit malt but drier, while Brown malt will give toasty notes and a soft dry roast flavour. If you have 15% of your mix of crystal malts (toffee, figs, sweet, some roast), 15% of a mix of Amber and Brown malt (bready, toasty, roasty, dry), you should be able to get away with as little as 5% Black Patent malt. Another thing you can do to help with FG and conversion is to replace some 2-row for 6-row. Also, the more Brown malt you use, the less Black malt you need as they have fairly similar effects in a way.

 

[JKaranka]

Chocolate flavours with no coffee are going to take some working on, though. Just chucked some numbers into a calculator and I was looking at an OG of 1.104. With that amount of dark crystal malts you won't need much fully roasted malts anyway to get to the colour, but if you were looking at really having that stouty bitter roast and coffee the following would let you down:

14lb Pale 2 row
2lb Pale 6 row
2lb Amber malt
1lb Crystal 120l
1lb Dark Crystal
1lb Special B
0.5lb Black malt OR Chocolate malt

Using Black patent malt would bring you just over 40SRM and Chocolate malt just under 40SRM. With the Amber malt you want the Crisp one or similar, which is a lighter honey colour (20L) rather than the darker Thomas Fawcett stuff which would give you more of a roast note (40L). I'd aim at 65-85 IBU of mainly bittering hops to balance that out and still keep it sweet. Some of the alpha acids will fade in aging anyway.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Thank you so much for the info, JKaranka! Have you watch the video? Anyway, I think you got the idea

Is there a chance that RIS would come out similar to a dubbel or quadruppel? I hate belgian beers! Thats not the kind of caramel I want, but the one described on the video.

I actually want the OG around 1100-1110.

________________________

I like your recipe, but I prefer talking about percentages. I also seek complexity (thats why there is 3 different caramel and darker malts).

BASE MALTS (63%)
20% 2-row
10% 6-row
13% Diastatic Malt (just in case)
10% Amber Malt (for bread/biscuit notes)
10% Flaked Oats (mouthfeel)

ADJUNCTS (10%)
5% Molasses
5% brown sugar

CARAMEL MALTS (15%)
5% Aromatic malt (malty flavors)
5% Special B (strong malty and some nutty flavors)
5% Crystal Dark (toffee/chocolate)

DARK MALTS (12%)
5% Chocolate
5% Black Malt
2% Roasted Barley​

 

[JKaranka]

You get a lot of complexity of dark malts without needing more variety of them. I'd kill the oats (it will be ridiculously heavy anyway), the roasted barley and the sugars. If you are keen on sugars try inverting some up to a #3 or #4 syrup, but this will start bringing some of those Belgian style flavours. I'd also get rid of another roasted malt on top of the roasted barley, and with all those other dark malts go with 3% Black Malt. (That's around the percentage of black patent that the original Victorian RIS used to have, with most of the roast coming from around 20% Brown Malt.) When you are looking at percentages in a 1.100 beer, a little goes a long way!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

BASE MALTS (63%)
20% 2-row
10% 6-row
13% Diastatic Malt (just in case)
10% Amber Malt (for bread/biscuit notes)
10% Flaked Oats (mouthfeel)

ADJUNCTS (10%)
5% Molasses
5% brown sugar

CARAMEL MALTS (15%)
5% Aromatic malt (malty flavors)
5% Special B (strong malty and some nutty flavors)
5% Crystal Dark (toffee/chocolate)

DARK MALTS (12%)
5% Chocolate
5% Black Malt
2% Roasted Barley

WAY too complicated! All of those flavors are just going to muddle together into a big, roasty stout, which can very likely be achieved without near as much grain bill complexity. Try this:

87% Maris Otter (bready/biscuity pale malt)
5% brown malt (roasty but mild)
4% Special B (complex in its own right - I get a lot of sweet toffee from it)
3% roasted barley
1% flaked oats

Skip the adjunct sugars except as needed to make up for lost efficiency in a very ambitious mash. Be careful with molasses and brown sugar - the flavor easily takes over, even in a dark, roasty beer like this. Consider a mid-range candi sugar/invert syrup instead.

Keep the mash above 150° F to retain some body, but don't let it get too high. The big grain bill will likely leave conversion a bit incomplete regardless of temp.

If, for some reason, this beer lacks body after fermentation, thicken it up a bit with some maltodextrin and/or lactose. I find that scenario highly unlikely, though, given the Maris Otter base and very high OG.

At any rate, you would have a lot of difficulty achieving a dry beer with an OG of 1.100+, and adding a boatload of crystal malt will very likely oversweeten a beer like this, regardless of your sweet-tooth.

 

[JKaranka]

OP mentioned sweet caramel and no roast so I did assume he has a sweet tooth. In reality I doubt he really wants a RIS at all! It's more like a very dark imperial brown ale with some roast for colour. If I went for RIS I'd go for something simple and dry like 75% pale, 17% brown, 5% flaked maize, 3% black.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I didn't mean to insinuate that he wanted a dry beer, but rather that it's almost impossible to dry a beer like this out, so he doesn't need to go overboard with the crystal malt in order to reach his goal.

 

[JKaranka]

Agree! Also, I think the impact of the ingredients and the need for simplicity increases as you increase the OG. You have better reasons to have plenty of specialty malts in an 1.032 dark mild than in a 1.120 RIS!

 

[MrSnacks]

If you're going for sickly sweet, do it through yeast, not malt. Use WLP002 to get a really high final gravity.

 

[rafaelpinto]

When you are looking at percentages in a 1.100 beer, a little goes a long way!

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

 

[rafaelpinto]

I want to use that amount of caramel malts not achieve a higher sweetness, but a caramelish and chocolatey profile. A 1.100 beer will surely end up above 1.020. Since I want it a little sweeter, I will mash it around 150-152F.

It is not that I got a sweet tooth. I just brewed a heavily hopped saison that finished around 1002. It was great! The thing is that I dont like dry imperial stouts that only go for darker coffee aroma and flavors. The video I posted shows a beer that offers something a little different.

Have you had Evil Twins Even More Jesus? That beer is ****in amazing and does not emulate all those standard high rated RIS. I also seek some of that dark fruits, raisin, berry notes.

No, I dont want a strong brown ale. I actually hate brown ales. Thats not the kind of caramel Im lookin for. Nor the belgian dubbels/quadruppels. So I do want some roasted notes, but the caramel ones has to be stronger and very obvious. Maybe Im creating a Imperial Porter, right? Indeed Id like a head as black as the beer itself. Could I increase the darker malts and balance it with a ton of caramel notes? I guess not, right?

Old Rasputin, for example, has something I am looking for. But Id like it a little stronger on that notes. Three Floyds' Dark Lord kind of inspires me on that. Here is another good refference:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t73O-izFQU0[/ame]

 

[rafaelpinto]

This on looks very balanced. I dont think this can be achieved without larger amount of specialty malts.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUQ78uS9Ik4[/ame]

 

[MrSnacks]

Old Rasputin is very dry for a RIS and it's quite focused on roasty coffee/chocolate flavors, IMHO. So I guess I'm not even sure what a commercial example of the kind of beer you're describing is?

 

[d3track]

I think it might be good for you to experiment with a 1.050-1.060 stout using marris otter, crystal 60(ish) and I think pale chocolate. Maybe even some chocolate rye. This might give you an idea of the flavor profile you are heading towards, and you get a batch to build up the yeast too.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Old Rasputin is very dry for a RIS and it's quite focused on roasty coffee/chocolate flavors, IMHO. So I guess I'm not even sure what a commercial example of the kind of beer you're describing is?

I dont think it is that dry. It is indeed quite roasty, but I enjoy its toffee notes. I gave several examples of commercial beers: Even More Jesus, Dark Lord, Hunahpu and the most obvious, Omnipollo Yellow Belly.

 

[MrSnacks]

I dont think it is that dry. It is indeed quite roasty, but I enjoy its toffee notes. I gave several examples of commercial beers: Even More Jesus, Dark Lord, Hunahpu and the most obvious, Omnipollo Yellow Belly.

You're looking for a really high final gravity, possibly flavored beer?

Dark Lord is really high final gravity, something like 1.050. Same with Hunahpu--really high final gravity, also flavored...Omnipollo Yellow Belly is also flavored and very high final gravity. Can't speak to Even More Jesus, I've never had it. But the common factor in all of those beers is really really high final gravity.

 

[allenH]

If you are looking for a pretty spot-on Hunahpu/Marshal Zhukov recipe, look up the thread "a tribute to Hunahpu". Many of us have made that recipe and it's awesome. 49% base malt, starts out 1.120-ish and finishes in the mid 1.030's.
Tons of research from CCB's old blog and Wayne Wambles (Cigar City's brewmaster) answered some questions himself in that thread.

 

[rafaelpinto]

If you are looking for a pretty spot-on Hunahpu/Marshal Zhukov recipe, look up the thread "a tribute to Hunahpu". Many of us have made that recipe and it's awesome. 49% base malt, starts out 1.120-ish and finishes in the mid 1.030's.
Tons of research from CCB's old blog and Wayne Wambles (Cigar City's brewmaster) answered some questions himself in that thread.

That was the kind of answer I has hoping to get. Thanks a bunch!

 

[rafaelpinto]

They do use high amounts of dark/roasted malts (even though its a quite high OG beer). And there are 4 types of them (told ya! ). Very low on the crystal however. But they achieve those flavors and aromas with other stuff than malts. I wonder if it can be done with only malts.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I also disagree that Old Rasputin is dry. It's balanced with a lean to sweet malt.

Special B really exemplifies the flavor you describe, IMHO. But based on your last couple of replies, it appears you're simply looking to validate your OP rather than seeking advice.

 

[JKaranka]

Then consider something like pale, amber, special b, black patent malt and a relatively low attenuation yeast like the dreaded s33.

 

[allenH]

They do use high amounts of dark/roasted malts (even though its a quite high OG beer). And there are 4 types of them (told ya! ). Very low on the crystal however. But they achieve those flavors and aromas with other stuff than malts. I wonder if it can be done with only malts.

Hunahpu uses chilies, cocoa nibs and cinnamon, Marshal Zhukov is the base for Huna, and uses none of those. All flavor and aroma comes from the malts in Marshal Zhukov.
http://youtu.be/d1gDmqZJuOY
Fast forward to 2:40 to see his reaction to his first taste.
The recipe most of is used is found later in the thread and is pretty close to this

 

[DudeAbides]

Made an Austin Homebrew recipe called West Yorkshire oatmeal stout that had 16% crystal malts (1lb c60 and 1lb c120). Turned out fantastic, everyone loved it. Wasn't cloyingly sweet or anything, just malty chocolately awesomeness.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[rafaelpinto]

But based on your last couple of replies, it appears you're simply looking to validate your OP rather than seeking advice.

I am really learning here. Several adaptions were made on the recipe based on what you guys said. So I am not only seeking advice, I am using them

 

[rafaelpinto]

So, here is what I am decided to do now, based on what guys said on their tribute to Hunahpu. Thats an imperial stout recipe, right? And a big one! People dont oftenly use that amounts of caramel malts, although I am interested on how it will turn out..

BASE Malts (62%)
37% 2-row
20% Munich (malt, honney, biscuit)
5% Flaked Oats

ADJUNCTS (5%)
5% Brown Sugar

CARAMEL Malts (15%)
5% Aromatic (malty notes, not quite a caramel malt)
5% Special B (intense malty and nut flavors)
5% Crystal Dark (caramel, raisin, toffee/chocolate)

DARK MALTS (18%)
10% Chocolate (dark chocolate, ashy notes)
5% Carafa Special III (adds color and little roastiness)
3% Black Malt (coffee notes)
​

 

[rafaelpinto]

Then consider something like pale, amber, special b, black patent malt and a relatively low attenuation yeast like the dreaded s33.

Thanks for the tips. What do you think of the recipe above? What about S04? It is low attenuating and has a fruity profile (which might bring some sweetness to flavor, along with rasin, dark fruit notes). We have a beer here in Brazil called Petroleum. It is one of our best RIS. Their recipe calls for lots of caramel malts and they use S04. Here is a review of it: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6085-D9w_E[/ame]

So, using that amount of specialty grains and a low attenuating yeast, I wonder if 150F is enough to get me around 1035-1040. Or should I mash a little higher?