I'm now using RO water from my local brew shop and was wondering if I should treat the water with campden to remove chloramine ? I guess the filter won't remove those ? It might explain why my 1st brew using RO water tasted weird, I didn't think about chloramine
100% RO water
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charliehorse
Well-Known Member
The reason that it tasted weird was that they removed ALL of the minerals from the water, not because there was Chloramine in the water. Unless you're adding minerals to mimic the water profile of a particular city, I'd stay away from RO water. FWIW, RO water is deadly to drink.
People use ro water when their tap water sucks. RO water isn't bad to drink, either. I think you're thinking of distilled water...
charliehorse
Well-Known Member
Distilled water has more contaminants in it that RO water. People use RO water in reef tanks after they've added minerals (salt and other stuff) to it. I would use neither under any circumstances without adding minerals to it.
bobo31
Well-Known Member
I am an advocate of 100% RO water. After my first few brews I realized my well water was not right for brewing so I purchased an RO filter. The bonus of RO water is it gives you complete control of what is in your water. Download the Bru'n water spreadsheet, take the time to figure it out and then build your own water profiles. Your beer will be SO much better.
Wow! I did not know that. Did you know that RO and distilled water are nearly identical to rainwater? I pity all those poor people and animals that die every day from drinking rain water.
I'm hoping you were joking with the comment above.
The raw water feeding a RO machine has to already be dechlorinated, so you don't need to worry about chlorine compounds in your RO water. No need for campden.
I've tasted beers that were made with either RO or distilled water and the brewer didn't add any minerals. While the beers were technically OK, they were notably "bland". There is a reason that those bottled water sellers like Dasani add minerals to the RO water that they sell...it tastes better.
TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
I use RO water (with salts) in all my brews. We have several RO water coolers in the office that people drink from every single day, no one has died yet. Just lucky I guess.
GrogNerd
mean old man
foodbabe said it, must be true
I've heard this in the reefing world for 20 years now, and I still can't believe that people still say it.
Potable water in = deadly water out? I don't think so! Low or no minerals on the RO side, High in minerals on the waste side, but neither are deadly to drink, period. You just don't get any needed minerals thru drinking RO water, better eat your veggies!
brewster2012
Anchor Down!
My take away from the study linked below...RO probably isn't the best drinking water option. YMMV.
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap12.pdf
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap12.pdf
After reading this and other sources on the net, it would seem the biggest concern would be if you don't get adequate minerals (especially calcium and magnesium) from other sources. It looks like as long as you're eating a nutritious diet and possibly taking a multivitamin, drinking RO should be perfectly fine. I would even say advantageous in many situations since RO filters also remove other potentially dangerous compounds (chlorine, arsenic, flouride, pesticides, etc.) from tap water.
Good thing we don't live on water alone.
Remember that when we make beer, we are adding grains and hops to the water, both contain some minerals that will end up in our water. Even if you didn't add salt or minerals to the original RO water, your still going to get some back thru the process (even the article talks about how low mineral water pulls minerals out of food boiled in it)
Remember that when we make beer, we are adding grains and hops to the water, both contain some minerals that will end up in our water. Even if you didn't add salt or minerals to the original RO water, your still going to get some back thru the process (even the article talks about how low mineral water pulls minerals out of food boiled in it)
I have no issue with ro water. I prefer it when building profiles, because it seems easier for me. I was always told that distilled water isn't really good for you though. Is it the lack of, well... everything that makes it unhealthy? I remember something super scientific, like ions and stuff (LOL) that could be an issue?
Any info about distilled water to clear this up would be greatly appreciated!
My take away from the study linked below...RO probably isn't the best drinking water option. YMMV.
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap12.pdf
Unfortunately, you may not understand all the factors that WHO used to produce that recommendation against drinking RO.
First, the report does not say that drinking it is a hazard. It does state that you might miss out on some nutrients. However, normal food intake can provide the missing water nutrients.
The most important thing that isn't mentioned, is that RO produces a waste water that typically can't be consumed. Assuming that the raw water is otherwise potable, obtaining drinking water via RO means that there is less water available to drink. In parts of the world that don't have enough water to drink, that is a big deal. Remember, this WHO report is a worldwide document. They are trying to avoid creating a preventable water shortage or deficiency.
Mexibilly
Mexibilly
There seems to be some confusion regarding the dangers of RO water.
It is in fact deadly if you breathe enough of it.
Drinking it is generally safe.
What a coincidence that my wife was just yesterday talking about this as well! I said I'd like to keep the RO water as an option for brewing because it is easier to build water from scratch than trying to figure out what is in it (and not having an easy way to remove anything)... We might add a re-mineralizer for taste and pH but I was thinking about having a bypass for brewing.
cgrivois
Well-Known Member
Well this thread has derailed, Ive got a question to bring it back on track. After reading Yoopers thread on basic water adition, basicaly adding 1tsp of calcium chloride to five gallons of RO water and an acid adition my water calc shows the water profile being way to far on the malty side. Should I add some gypsum to bring it closer into balance or just roll with it?
Do both and see what you like better.
That's what I do with anything in this hobby. if I'm conflicted, I do some reading, then try it both ways.
No, you can't do that. Well you can if you really want to - it's your beer. This whole ratio of chloride to sulfate thing has gotten totally out of hand. The reasons are discussed at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109.
And yes, a tsp per 5 gal is a lot. Were I able to edit the primer I'd probably drop that back to half a tsp.
And yes, a tsp per 5 gal is a lot. Were I able to edit the primer I'd probably drop that back to half a tsp.
Sort of a trick question. An RO filter should remove chloramine but it would poison the membrane so they all have carbon filters before the membrane to remove the chloramine. Thus the water out of your system will be chloramine free but it isn't the RO membrane that removed it.
Semi-related, I ordered a 5 stage RO portable water system and I plan on trying a few of my recipes with 100% RO adding salts to see just how much they improve.
Greatly looking forward to it.
Keep the comments going.
Greatly looking forward to it.
Keep the comments going.
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Chloramines are treated by the carbon prefilters in an RO system. With adequate carbon pretreatment, the chloramines are split back into chlorine (or chloride) and ammonia before the water even reaches the membrane.
The chlorine will be removed by the carbon, the chloride by the RO membrane. As it is a dissolved gas, the ammonia goes through the membrane and remains in the RO water.
Russ
The chlorine will be removed by the carbon, the chloride by the RO membrane. As it is a dissolved gas, the ammonia goes through the membrane and remains in the RO water.
Russ
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Fun fact to know and tell: Most people who use RO are aware of the ract that chlorine will damage/ruin a (TFC) RO membrane.
The manufacturer of Filmtec membranes tells us the membrane can withstand up to a max of about 1,000 ppm * hours of chlorine expose before dame ensues.
When evaluating chloramine exposure, they stopped the test at 300,000 ppm*hours without notable damage to the membrane. The issue with chloramines is that you'll also likely have some free chlorine in the water as well.
Russ
The manufacturer of Filmtec membranes tells us the membrane can withstand up to a max of about 1,000 ppm * hours of chlorine expose before dame ensues.
When evaluating chloramine exposure, they stopped the test at 300,000 ppm*hours without notable damage to the membrane. The issue with chloramines is that you'll also likely have some free chlorine in the water as well.
Russ
Please get the Malty or Bitter nomenclature out of your lexicon. Having chloride or sulfate in your brewing water DOES NOT make the beer maltier or more bitter. A more accurate description of what chloride and sulfate do for beer perception is that chloride tends to make the beer's finish "fuller" and more mouth coating, while sulfate tends to make the beer's finish "dryer" and less mouth coating.
The steady state equation for the reduction of monochloramine by activated carbon is
3NH2Cl ---> 2H+ + 3Cl- + NH4+ + N2
Two thirds of the nitrogen gets reduced all the way to the gas (N2) which will pass through. Of the remaining 1/3 most gets converted to ammonium ion because of the low pH relative to the pK of ammonium which is 9.25. At pH 9.25 only half would become the ion but at pH 8 it is 94.6% and at pH 7 99.4%. Ammonium ion is rejected by the membrane (if not as completely as other ions i.e 80 - 90%) but that's hardly a problem as NH4+ is a yeast nutrient. The tiny amount of ammonium that makes it through in the permeate will be converted to ammonium ion when the mash is brought to proper pH. This is definitely not something to worry about.
Yes, because chloramine isn't as powerful a germacide. It is used to stabilize the water once the chlorine has done its job and is generally put into the water by treating chlorinated water with ammonia but not to the extent that all the free chlorine is consumed.
Carbon filters remove chlorine as well as chloramine
C* + HOCl --> CO* + H+ + Cl-
where C* is the active carbon site and CO* is that site after it's been oxidized by the hypochlorite. What's really interesting here to me is that if you look in the chloramine equation C* doesn't appear at all. That is because chloramine can reduce CO* back to C*. If the water contains only chloramine the filter will last forever (it says here) whereas if it contains chlorine as well it will eventually have to be regenerated.
