100% Brett Cider Discussion

[peanasky]

I'll start off by saying that I am, in no way, an accomplished cider maker. If anything, I'm still a bit of a noob. However, I've been brewing beer for a while (8 years?) and over the last year or so have fallen in love with Brett yeast. It's got just enough funk, can provide some tartness, as well as some fruitiness, all while still being a "clean" bug that I can reliably sanitize. Anyways, on to the cider:

So far all of my experiments have been with Bootleg Biology's Funk Weapon #2, which is reportedly a Bruxellensis strain from West Flanders, Belgium.

100% Brett Cider V.1:
2 gallons of Martinellis 100% apple juice, 0 preservatives, but filtered.
I made a 1.5L starter w/150g DME, split off half to save, the other half got pitched.
Tasting Notes: First tastes were bland, flabby, and just "meh". Very similar to other ciders I've made from store bought juice. I kegged it anyways to see what would happen. Over time (2 months) it really came into its own. It picked up some funk as the Brett continued to work in the keg. Finally, it fell off. I must have oxidated it a bit at some point, as the Brett turned on me and started to produce some acetic acid (yay vinegar!).

100% Brett Cider V.2:
1 gallon of store bought 100% apple juice, 0 preservatives, unfiltered.
Pitched on yeast cake from V.1
Tasting Notes: TBD. I just kegged this last weekend, and has been conditioning a bit before I try it. It spent less time in primary than V.1, so hopefully less oxygen this time around.

100% Brett Cider V.3:
2 gallons Field Day Organic 100% apple juice, 0 preservatives, unfiltered
2 gallons of Martinellis 100% apple juice, 0 preservatives, but filtered
Pitched on the yeast cake from V.2
After my little acetic incident, the folks at Milk the Funk pointed out the oxidation problem. This one is currently fermenting in a keg with a spunding valve set to 5psi. I'm hoping fermenting under pressure and limiting oxygen will bring out more fruity and funky flavor from the Brett faster than before.

Anyone else play around with Brett in their Ciders? Let's discuss as a group!

 

[S-Met]

I don't ferment Bi, I'm just Brett-Curious.

 

[bernardsmith]

I think the key ingredient in any cider is the apples. Don't understand this but brewers tend to settle for crappy apple juice whereas wine makers work hard to find real cider apples for their juice.

Perhaps brett can compensate but Martinelli apple juice is made for the soft drink market so that the acidity of the apples is balanced by the sweetness of the juice. To make cider you really want to work with orchards that produce apple juice for the hard cider market. They tend to use a blend of apples better suited for a more "dry" drink (one with far less sugar in it), a drink that supports more tannin, and a level of acidity more in line with the level of alcohol. Not that Martinelli is garbage, but a Yugo ain't a Porsche. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[peanasky]

I think the key ingredient in any cider is the apples. Don't understand this but brewers tend to settle for crappy apple juice whereas wine makers work hard to find real cider apples for their juice.

Perhaps brett can compensate but Martinelli apple juice is made for the soft drink market so that the acidity of the apples is balanced by the sweetness of the juice. To make cider you really want to work with orchards that produce apple juice for the hard cider market. They tend to use a blend of apples better suited for a more "dry" drink (one with far less sugar in it), a drink that supports more tannin, and a level of acidity more in line with the level of alcohol. Not that Martinelli is garbage, but a Yugo ain't a Porsche. Garbage in, garbage out.

Fair points all around. I think from the brewer side of things it's that we rarely have to deal with finding "made for fermenting" products. Everything we use is made for beer making, so there's never any question, haha.

Personally, I have a hard time getting real cider apple juice, even the local cidery orchard is very hesitant to share. I also don't have the time/space for grinding and juicing my own apples. So, grocery store juice it is! The Brett was never really intended to cover up crappy juice, just to add something different and funky. I'm hoping this latest batch with the unfiltered, "pure" apple juice is better. We shall see.

 

[bernardsmith]

Just my wee dig at brewers making cider. So many view the production of H2S as being the cost of doing business while wine makers treat the production of hydrogen sulfide as highlighting fundamental flaws in process (stressed yeast or torpid fermentation) or choice of yeast, raw materials (apples) or poor understanding of the nutrients yeast need.
As it happens I am currently experimenting with sour meads (although meads - and indeed all wines - are quite sour even without the addition of LAB or Brett or Ped (Regular mead has a pH of between about 3.2 - 3.5, and a TA of around 6-7%).
Some Brett will add funk but others are more fruity - You could try a Brett like Claussenii which might work well with the fruitiness of the cider.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brett ciders are definitely on my "brew queue" for this fall. Thanks for sharing!

Consider adjusting the acidity using malic acid.

Over here in the States it's next to impossible to find old world cider apple varieties. New World ciders use acid/sweetness/fruitiness to add dimension without tannins. Brett aromatics are a great way to do this.

How have these been with regard to mouthfeel?

 

[madscientist451]

Thanks for posting, I'm going to try it this fall! I'm going to use the Brett strain mentioned below.
Interesting topic....a quick google search turned up a large amount of material on the subject.

Here's one where they tasted gravity samples of a bunch of different brett strains:
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2013/05/cider-fermentation-panel-tasting.html

And another post from the same source about a month later contained this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are looking to brew a brett cider, it is important to note that brettanomyces continues working even after fermentation has completed and it may take a couple months to develop the desired flavor. For those homebrewers who don't want to wait more than a month, I would recommend Wyeast's B. bruxellensis (note: this is different than White Lab's) as it had a great flavor profile in both tasting sessions and is an easy strain to obtain

here's the link:

http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2013/06/

 

[johnnyseko]

WLP640 from the Vault? I'm curious about trying this.

 

[peanasky]

Just wanted to throw a quick update on this:

Brett Cider V.2:
Vinegar, again. I'm thinking the massive oxygen exposure and lack of long-term fermentation is leading to this result.

Brett Cider V.3:
This one actually turned out pretty damned good! It smells more tart than it actually is. Has some nice Brett tartness, but not the vinegar of previous batches. Mouthfeel is light and crisp. There is very little residual sweetness, but the impression of sweetness is there as it warms up. Right now I'm thinking of putting the rest of my keg into bottles to let it age out for a while.

Lessons Learned:

• Big pitch required, even better with an active culture. In the future I'll be starting with a single gallon to build cellcount up
• Funk Weapon 2 doesn't need a bunch of oxygen if cellcount is up high enough
• Limit oxygen exposure as much as possible, spunding at 5psi seemed to work well
• I believe the lack of long-chain sugars, and lack of S.Cerevisiae byproducts, is what is keeping the Brett from using up the oxygen present through continued fermentation. In other words, it powers through the fructose in the cider, and if there's still oxygen around, starts to produce acetic acid.

Well, I think I'm done with this little experiment for a while. I've got 45lbs of pears from a friend of a friend that are dying to be made into a traditional perry. Back to "normal" yeast for a bit

 

[dmtaylor]

I made a Brett cider once. I really didn't like it, took me ages to finish it off and I might have even dumped some. Later I learned that Basque sidras taste exactly the same way. Taste like sour green olives to my palate. I have a couple bottles of authentic Basque sidras on hand which eventually I will share with friends and probably scare them off as well. It's funky. It's phenolic. It's definitely an acquired taste. However, I think I might be coming around to it, maybe. At first taste though, I really kind of hated it. It's growing on me now somewhat.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Vinegar, again. I'm thinking the massive oxygen exposure and lack of long-term fermentation is leading to this result.

Just the oxygen
Acetic acid doesn't age out.
After the initial aeration, try to limit oxygen exposure as much as reasonably possible.

 

[peanasky]

Just the oxygen
Acetic acid doesn't age out.
After the initial aeration, try to limit oxygen exposure as much as reasonably possible.

Yeah, I think oxygen was the main contribution. My comment on the long term fermentation is based on the assumption that, similar to bottle conditioning, if the Brett had some long-chain sugars to chew on they would consume some additional oxygen instead of producing acetic acid.