Got my kegs back.. what do you think

Ok, got my kegs back, and the outside looks awesome..the inside is a different story.. please excuse the fact that they need to be cleaned out and pressure washed..








do you guys think:

1) this will affect the beer in its current condition.

2) i should file it down or do something to it

3) just use some BKF and it will be fine...


I really don't want to go back to him, he was kind of a pain to deal with and took forever.. but he did charge very little to do all three..


thanks for your input..

Those look pretty ugly. I would try cleaning them up first just to see how bad it really is. I don't know if I would take them back to the same guy though.

i think they may be ok, after i put some elbow grease into them.. i was trying to scratch the metal off, and it didnt dust..

i can just chalk it up to some ugly beirmuncher junk

Let's see the outside. Mine look pretty nasty inside too but it's not rusting or anything.

He should re-passivate those with some BKF though, right?

You sure woulnd't want those welds on a fermenter; on a boil vessel, should be OK.

The bulkhead/nipple is welded in backwards.

looks great on the outside.. prefect looking.. ill get pics later.. doing a walkthrough on our new home we sign for tomorrow!

bird, what did you mean by re-passivate? sorry, new term for me.

aekdbbop said:

looks great on the outside.. prefect looking.. ill get pics later.. doing a walkthrough on our new home we sign for tomorrow!

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New home...

New kegs....

What could be better than.........HEH!!!!

What the hell is with another BM ugly junk comment???

Is it not apparent I have self image "issues"?

Does your mother know you talk bad about people like this?

Don't you guys have any mercy for a guy with really, really thin skin?

GilaMinumBeer said:

The bulkhead/nipple is welded in backwards.

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Umm...no. They are two sided - you can put a fitting inside and out.

The weld job is TERRIBLE! There was no attempt to protect the back side of the weld. Fortunately, these are for hot-side applications, so there is little need to worry about harboring infection in the cracks and crevices of a poorly executed weld. NEVER have any stainless welded by that shop again. They don't know how to handle it.

Some BKF at a minimum, along with a little grinding (if you have the capability) are in order. You shouldn't have too much trouble with further corrosion, but you have every right to be disappointed.

I'd recommend getting them as smooth as possible for the simple reason that you have to be able to clean this, otherwise you're liable to have bits of a porter stuck in your hefe, which wouldn't be pretty. I'd go after them with a dremel tool and a mini grinder wheel.

Just my 2 cents.

I suggest going to Harbor Freight and buying a 4-1/2" angle grinder for $18. Then you can clean up those welds with some BKF. Although you might have trouble on some of the couplings that stick further into the keggle because you won't have as easy access to their bottom halves.

Jared311 said:

I suggest going to Harbor Freight and buying a 4-1/2" angle grinder for $18. Then you can clean up those welds with some BKF.

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There's no way you're gonna get a 4-1/2" angle grinder around the interior welds.

Yeah, you must have caught my post while I was editing it. I am going to use my 4-1/2" angle grinder but I made sure that my couplings didn't stick far into the keggle so that I could access the bottom halves. I am planning on using a used blade that had a much smaller diameter.

so what? a file? or i have a knock off dremel..

oh, and i should say...

he did do a better job first.. then i had to take them back to him because i didnt have him stick the coupling halfway in and out... it was just flush in the front. So he had to cut the old one off, and put the new one on. Still prolly isnt an excuse.

Yuri_Rage said:

Umm...no. They are two sided - you can put a fitting inside and out.

The weld job is TERRIBLE! There was no attempt to protect the back side of the weld. Fortunately, these are for hot-side applications, so there is little need to worry about harboring infection in the cracks and crevices of a poorly executed weld. NEVER have any stainless welded by that shop again. They don't know how to handle it.

Some BKF at a minimum, along with a little grinding (if you have the capability) are in order. You shouldn't have too much trouble with further corrosion, but you have every right to be disappointed.

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In all fairness Yuri, I don't know many welders that flux or back gas these types of jobs at least at the prices we're willing to pay. Mine have some sugaring on them and I'm completely fine with that. It was hard enough to find a shop that would do it at all. I wouldn't be thrilled with those particular welds, but I wouldn't be suicidal over it either.

or is there a metal sandpaper kinda thing.. ehh.. who knows.. i'm tired.

That is really too bad he did not try to use shielding gas on the back side. If you have access to an air die grinder and stainless mounted stones and then finish up with cartridge rolls you should be able to clean it up fairly good. You can use a diamond stone dresser to shape the end of the stone for the correct radii for the corner. Just try not to undercut the sheetmetal at all as it is not that thick. Be careful and use eye protection and plenty of light to see what you are doing. I was a tool and die maker for over 40 years.

Bobby_M said:

In all fairness Yuri, I don't know many welders that flux or back gas these types of jobs at least at the prices we're willing to pay. Mine have some sugaring on them and I'm completely fine with that. It was hard enough to find a shop that would do it at all. I wouldn't be thrilled with those particular welds, but I wouldn't be suicidal over it either.

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They'll get the job done, and there isn't any need to get too bent out of shape about it. However, I wouldn't rush back to that shop to have more work done, and I would definitely be a bit disappointed.

My issue is with welders that either don't know to protect the welds or are too lazy to do it. Backgassing is EXTREMELY simple and takes no more than about 5 minutes (plus a spare argon tank and regulator...which every shop surely has) to set up for a small job like this. I've made plenty of stainless welds that I'm not proud of by trying to take shortcuts when the reality is that backgassing is too simple to ignore.

Well I'd imagine most welding shops don't do this sort of thing on a regular basis, and know the ins and outs of the expectations of homebrewers

Bytor1100 said:

Well I'd imagine most welding shops don't do this sort of thing on a regular basis

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It's a pretty basic procedure. There isn't much excuse.

I gotta agree with Yuri. I'm not even a welder and just from reading this thread I can ascertain that back gassing means flooding the reverse side with an inert gas to prevent oxidation of the molten liquid bead. And I'm guessing that all that's required is a tank, regulator, and a delivery wand to keep a steady flow of the gas over the rear of the weld.

Assuming I'm not dead wrong; If I can figure out that much from a short discussion in a beer forum then a professional welder should certainly understand and appreciate it.

Bytor1100 said:

Well I'd imagine most welding shops don't do this sort of thing on a regular basis, and know the ins and outs of the expectations of homebrewers

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True enough, but it would seem that joining to metals of greatly differing thickness would present a significant risk of damaging the thinner metal (in this case, the keg). And while keggle welds may not be commonplace, I would think that thick/thin joins would be within the repitore of someone who welds for a living.

Don't get me wrong. I've never welded and I'm not claiming that it's easy to do (or within my ability). Just making a statement that if a total novice 'gets it', then it's not unreasonable to expect it from a professional.

Bummer on the weld Job , your welder must be a BMC drinker

Id invest in a good Dremmel tool - Avoid Steel wool for clean up though this will make your keggle rusty - Scothcbrite 3M Discs are great for this type of grinding and removing "bird shiat " from lazy welders.


Passivating is a process of making stainless steel -stain resistant again after heating, exposure to bleach or welding. Stainless is "stainless" due to chromium oxides present on the surface, which are destroyed by heat or chemicals like bleach. Passivating brings back those oxides and is typically done with a nitric acid bath or exposure to a clean ( and degreased ) O2 rich environment.


Blacksmith by Trade
Brewer By Choice

Prost !

Jens

Yuri_Rage said:

Umm...no. They are two sided - you can put a fitting inside and out.

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Umm...Duh! Hence the at the end. Sorry, forgot the html tags [sarcasm][/sarcasm]

Use a steel wire brush (about the size of a tooth brush) to clean the welds. The brush does not have to be stainless. You’ll be surprised how clean the welds look afterward. I wouldn’t grind anything.

In welding preparation is critical—who drilled the holes? If one hole was larger than the other I would expect more “drop through” with the larger hole. It just looks like the sheet metal wasn’t flush with the fitting for the one weld, that’s all. Even a small gap between the welded surfaces could have caused this.

PAbrewer07 said:

Use a steel wire brush (about the size of a tooth brush) to clean the welds. The brush does not have to be stainless. You’ll be surprised how clean the welds look afterward. I wouldn’t grind anything.

In welding preparation is critical—who drilled the holes? If one hole was larger than the other I would expect more “drop through” with the larger hole. It just looks like the sheet metal wasn’t flush with the fitting for the one weld, that’s all. Even a small gap between the welded surfaces could have caused this.

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Apologies, but you're incorrect. Do not use a carbon steel brush to clean the welds. It may leave deposits that will later rust. Also, the ugly portion is not simply "drop through," it's "sugaring" due to a lack of protection on the back side of a stainless weld.

Yuri's statement about not using carbon steel brushes, steel wool is quite true, it looks okay right after you clean up, but rusts up nicely when it gets wet. If you want to passivate the inside you can use a 50-50 mix of citric and ascorbic acid in water held near 180 degrees for a couple of hours to remove free iron from stainless and rebuild oxides. Nitric acid has gone out of favor for pipe and tank passivation due to handling and disposal hazards, heated citric & ascorbic acid is method of choice now. You should be able to get adequate results with 4Oz dry weight acid blend per gallon of water held at 180 degrees, this will not remove black nickel oxide deposits though. There is a flouride mix you can get from welding supply companies that will do that but I do not reccomend it for some one not used to handling strong acids or caustics.

50-50 mix of citric and ascorbic acid

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I know this is going to sound stupid, but if it were my keggle I would ask this:

For the citric and ascorbic acid, couldn't you just use lemon and orange juice?

so you cant re-passivate with BKF like bird said?

you guys are making me more depressed.

Since I am close to having this done, what does one ask of a welder
1) do you weld SS
2)do you back gas the inside?
Anything else a non welder should inquire about a keggle conversion? Thanks Charlie

The juice forms of the acids are too weak, and BKF is good for maintenance passivation but after welding there is more iron to remove than BKF can cope with in one shot.

balto charlie said:

Since I am close to having this done, what does one ask of a welder
1) do you weld SS
2)do you back gas the inside?
Anything else a non welder should inquire about a keggle conversion? Thanks Charlie

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sanitary welds.. you want them..





so several passes with a grinder on a dremel first, then several passes with BKF?



off to close on my first home! woohooo!!!!

wow, this is quite the informative thread as I'm having a fitting welded in a keggle later today! Fortunately, the mechanic doing it works in a pharma plant where sanitary welds are very routine....but i'm still going to make he back-gases. ...wait, that doesn't sound right at all. eww.

I think my disappointment in other welders' work has turned this thread into a bit of an alarmist one. Let's clear a few things up.

"Sanitary welds" are sort of a misnomer. Any good weld will also be sanitary. Also, you don't need a completely sanitary environment in any hot side vessel. It just needs to be clean.

When you have stainless welded, it is HIGHLY preferable to have the back of the weld protected with either inert gas (called back-gassing) or flux. If it is not protected, the molten stainless alloy will tend to break down a bit and oxidize. As a result, the unprotected portion of the weld becomes bubbly and has a brittle, crystalline structure that is full of fissures and cracks. The oxidized surface will turn black, and with some alloys, it will have a powdery white coating (commonly called "sugar"). This problem does not manifest itself on the front of the weld, since any welding method includes some form of gas/flux protection on the torch/hot side. The major problems with a "sugared weld" are that the weld is much weaker than a proper weld, and, in a food environment, contaminants can hide in the fissures. It is also more at risk for corrosion.

From experience (I welded one keggle - my own - without backgassing), an improper weld on a stainless fitting will be plenty strong, and the black oxide finish will not corrode or rust in a wet environment. So, as long as you're not using these kegs for fermentation, there isn't a ton to be worried about. It's just unfortunate that the welder didn't do a better job.

To combat the problem of possible corrosion, some BKF and a stainless wire brush are probably all you need. If you want to pickle it properly, buy a chemical called, "Wonder Gel." It's a nitric acid blend that will re-passivate any stainless surface. Unfortunately, it's pretty expensive, and it's very nasty stuff. www.mcmaster.com carries it. I don't think Wonder Gel is worth the expense unless the welds start to noticeably corrode after a few uses.

You'll probably never completely rid the welds of the bubbles, cracks, and fissures, but you can grind the ugliest of it off if you so desire. A Dremel or small die grinder is probably best suited to the job.

If I were to go to a welding shop for work on my stainless brew equipment, I would ask the following questions:

Can you TIG weld stainless?
How much experience do you have with it?
Can you back-gas all of the welds on this job?
How much will it cost...and will a few homebrews get me a discount?

If you get anything less than a positive, knowledgeable answer to any of these questions, consider using another shop, or using weldless fittings.

TIG welding, Tungsten Inert Gas, is a welding method where an electrode is surrounded by a shielding nozzle that dispenses inert gas, Argon, to surround the weld area. A stainless filler rod is added using your other hand, to create the fill of the bead.

What some guys do for welding stainless is to use a MIG (Metal Inert Gas) (wire-feed or 'squirt welders', one handed welding) welder and a spool of stainless wire, however they are not equipped to use the inert gas to weld. Some MIG's like those for home use, do not facilitate a shielding bottle gas. You must specify that the equipment you want is TIG with inert gas. MIG, with gas is acceptable.

Backgassing is a poor term. The weld should be made using inert gas on BOTH sides of the weld.

When you have couplings welded in to the keg it is easier to clean up after if the end of coupling is flush with the inside of the keg, not half way inside. This makes it easier to make it look like this http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/KegglesForClubMembers/photo#5194106467776001890

well, i happened to have a stainless brush attachement for the dremel. Wow, that helped alot. I think that after that and some BKF, they should be fine.. It really changed the appearance.

On a different note, one of my kegs has a blue tint to the inside, anyone ever seen this? and what do you suggest to use to clean the inside of these things, they are pretty nasty.

thanks!

The blue is probably just heat discoloration from the welding operation. Hit them with some BKF first and a green scrub pad. After a good rinse, I would clean the kettle out a second time with some hot PBW and rinse. The blue may or may not go away depending on how bad it is. Several of my kettles have some discoloration from various things but it doesn't affect the flavor of the beer at all.

now i'm curious about this. I am planning on welding my own keg this weekend, I have a mig with ss wire and bottle of argon. the problem is how do I back gas with only one bottle? can I use co2 for back gassing (i have a spare tank of that thanks to my keezer)?