The semi epic electric build. AKA mistakes not to make

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kcinpdx

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Location
Portland, OR
A little background first. I've been brewing for 10 years or so with varying success, using a variety of methods, processes and equipment. I've been brewing on a 10 gallon, 3 vessel propane system for a few years now, complete with a homemade 120v control panel and brew hardware rims tube. I recently entered my first contest and won the IPA category here in Portland - this was a huge surprise and inspired me to elevate my game a bit. My wonderful wife really encouraged me to "get a better system- what else's do you need?" And so started the new build.
 
So on to the build. My first idea was to simply bite the bullet and go with the new Spike system and avoid the pitfalls and set backs with piecing and building it myself. But the price tag was more than I could stomach and I already had a new spike kettle from the Black Friday sale, and initially I wanted to re use some of my control panel and perhaps stick with the great rims tube I already had.
I sold an old Rickenbacker bass and had a decent chunk of change to work with. Here were my requirements:
1. All electric
2. 5 and 10 gallon capability
3. Aesthetics important on this build.
4. Some degree of mobility to move to the basement vs garage
5. Financed through the sales of the bass and existing equipment.
After exhaustive research and selling the bass, I pulled the trigger on 2 custom 15 gallon spike kettles complete with herms coil. Should arrive this week!
Lesson#1: it's more expensive than you think. That alone ate most of my $ from the sale of the RIC!
 
Second major choice: control panel. Here were the requirements:

1. Two element control (hlt, BK)
2. Two pump control
3. 30a preferred
4. Use existing auber pid and ssr's, and PTD

I looked at off the shelf options but nothing quite fit my needs. I looked at so complete kits but they are fairly pricey. So here is what I settled on:
Auber 2 pid enclosure
Ez boil for second PID
Elelctric brew supply 30a, 2 element, 2 pump kit
Miscellaneous locking plugs and connectors from amazon.

Lesson / issue #2:
I was very confused when I opened the box from auber to see that the EZ boil was the size of a silver dollar. All this time (since about 2009 when I built my first panel) I assumed all PIDS were the same size. And the one I planned on using was 1/4. Sooooo guess what? The entire enclosure I bought was waaaay smaller than expected. Lesson- measure. Measure. Measure.
 
I now have all the panel supplies and it appears that despite the size, it looks like it may work. I opted to simply buy another 1/16 pid for the HLT.
Here is the big mess. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1487108108.854326.jpg

So I'm at a point where I need some guidance. The kit from ebrew supply seems like overkill. For example, is there a reason I need a keyed switch AND a normal on/off switch ? Why not just one? And do you really need a light indicator for your PIDs? Won't they light up when you turn them on? It seems like the leds will be an ample indicator that they are functioning.
Why not a 3 way for the elements, indicator lamp for each, an on off and indicator for each pump, keyed power switch and indicator for overall power, estop, buzzer and call it good? Am I missing something?
 
Following, I am in the planning, over think stage for a very similar system (same enclosure as well. My idea (not an original one however) is to incorporate an HLT/Mash switch to switch between the HLT PID and the EZboil (DSPR120) control for the HLT element. I'd rather use the Mash return temp to control that part of the process than have to adjust the HLT temp (if that makes sense). Then the EZBoil boil dial would be used to control the boil. Figuring out the switching circuit for the HLT/Mash control is my current hang up.
 
That's a good idea. One of my early incarnations was to only use the EZ boil only but I thought "hey! I've got this second PIDn. I'll use it too" not realizing it was 4x the size.
 
BTW I planned on using the keyed switch as my on/off and a 3 way selector for the elements that so I can isolate them during set up as well as be covered for the 30 amp setup to keep from firing more than one at a time.
 
So I'm at a point where I need some guidance. The kit from ebrew supply seems like overkill. For example, is there a reason I need a keyed switch AND a normal on/off switch ? Why not just one? And do you really need a light indicator for your PIDs? Won't they light up when you turn them on? It seems like the leds will be an ample indicator that they are functioning.
Why not a 3 way for the elements, indicator lamp for each, an on off and indicator for each pump, keyed power switch and indicator for overall power, estop, buzzer and call it good? Am I missing something?

the keyed switch is the main on/off switch, there is not a separate switch for on/off. you could use the incoming power cord as an on/off and skip the switch altogether. there is a power indicator light which indicates the main contactor is closed. yes, the pids lighting up indicates there is power as well so you could probably skip that. the red light indicates the e-stop is pressed. you could skip that as well, just need to remember to check the e-stop position if the panel doesn't power up. the white lights indicate which element is selected while the yellow ones indicate the element is actually on/firing. you could skip the white lights and just look at the switch and yellow lights to see what is on/firing.

caution on placing switches/lights way down low on the door, possible interference with the plugs on the bottom of the panel.
 
Great advice- thanks. I noticed that as well - the lip is about 1/2" in on all sides. I may skip the yellow or white lights o keep it a little less crowded.

The bottom panel is a bit of a concern- main power, 2 pumps, 2 elements and 2 temp sensors. They will all fit but it is really right.
Repeat lesson 1: measure. Get a bigger panel than you think you need. I need to decide if I'm going to try and squeeze it or order a larger enclosure.
 
you could always mount a receptacle to the side of the panel if you need space on the bottom, especially for the temp probes.

and yes, can't go wrong with extra space in the box.
 
The next big debate was to spa panel or not to spa panel. I poured over the threads and started one of my own. At the end of the day I did go with a separate spa panel mostly because I wanted the ability to be mobile. I had a 30a plug in the garage. It was a 3 prong outlet. Fortunately it is less than 6" away from the main panel so I'll switch it to a 4 prong.

Learnings: the spa panel does offer more flexibility but in my case it is not going to save money. By the time you add in the 4 prong cords (you need 2, one from spa panel to outlet and one from brew panel to spa panel) and new outlet, it's a wash. And don't skimp on safety. Having the gfci breaker is important when working with high voltage.
 
kcinpdx, to save space on the panel I am ordering the Auber SW16 lighted switches for both the pumps and 3 way HLT/MLT and I might go with the IND-2 compact led indicators for the Element select to save space as well. Ofcourse if you already have the kit switches buying more may not make sense. I purchased the 1pid 20a 120V Rims kit from eBrew last year but ultimately decided to go with a full on Herms. So back to eBrew Supply and Auber I go for more parts!
 
I think your box is too small and you are asking for a world if hurt in wiring. I know it's late to hear that, but I have wired 5 lbs of crap into a 3 lb box and it's not fun. Also, what if you want to expand?
 
I'm starting to agree. One thing that I'm dreading is cutting the opening for the pids. I can't seem to find a 2 pid pre-cut panel bigger than this one.
 
I think your box is too small and you are asking for a world if hurt in wiring. I know it's late to hear that, but I have wired 5 lbs of crap into a 3 lb box and it's not fun. Also, what if you want to expand?

+1. That's a lot of components for that box. Wiring will be a PITA.
 
I'll search to a pre cut 2 din box that's bigger. If I can't find it, I'll eliminate the buzzer and PID indicator lights.
 
Brun's right it's not bad at all. I cut out the squares for my pids and timer on my original box. Just draw it out and then use a drill to start a hole for the blade. Then a good jig saw blade will take care of it. Just take your time and go slow. I used a punch for the holes for the lights and switches. Came out awesome. Good luck with your build!

John
 
I hated cutting those square holes, slow and steady is my best advice.

I'm into simplicity. What are the two switches under the PIDs? If they are for alarms you could just wire one switch for the alarm. Also pick either the white or yellow indicators, I like knowing which line is actually getting power and when it is on, so I'm a fan of the yellow. But you could go with white on the face and move the yellow to the bottom or somewhere else visible
 
Nice job. Similar to how I went about mine. I only have one PID currently, since I only have one element, but I'll be adding another down the line. I went with a three way switch to control the elements, and a light above each pid so I know which one is powered on.
The one other thing I did to make my build easier was the addition of push button light up switches from Auber, instead of separate switch and lights http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=350
 
That's what I should have done in retrospect, but the kit seemed to appealing. I could have saved time and space for sure had I pieced it together. However there is some piece of mind in knowing you have everything you might need.
 
Ok - now I need assistance. I'm not using a timer. How would I go about adding a buzzer (triggered by one or both PID conditions) and a buzzer turn off switch?
 
Ok - now I need assistance. I'm not using a timer. How would I go about adding a buzzer (triggered by one or both PID conditions) and a buzzer turn off switch?

ok so the alarm funtions on the pid are really just a relay switch... if you feed 120v into one side of the alarm contacts when the alarm goes off the relay closes and lets the 120v pass through to the other output going to a regular switch that if on would allow current to say the 120v alarm if its off the alarm wont get power and go off... make sense?
 
Sort of. So for example, I set the alarm to go off when I hit HLT temp of 156. That function is set on the PID. I want to be able to flip a switch to turn off the annoying light and buzzer. I think I found a wiring diagram on Kals page : http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=12
I think this will do what I want but with only one switch and 2 pids
 

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