Truth about boil times??

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bruhaha

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I am ready to do an Oktoberfest with a grain bill of German Pils 42%, Munich, Vienna and CaraMunich comprising balance of the bill in descending percentage. OG calculated to be 1.055. BIAB

I cant seem to get a handle on the boil times I need. Due to the use of Pils maltz, some say 90 and some say 60. How about DMS boil off? Some say 60 and some say 90 is fine.

Not sure, but why waste propane and my time in the heat if I can't tell the difference in 60 from 90. Maybe someone who has done a few Oktoberfest beers like this will offer me their best suggestion and advice.


THANKS!!!
 
I boil my beers that contain Pils malt for 90 minutes. Is that needed? I don't know, but I know it doesn't hurt and I'd rather spend an extra half hour and the propane and be safe.
 
I think you are still about to get both 60 and 90 min answers/responses, however; I had the same question awhile back and I asked the guy at my LHBS and he simply asked "Is 30 extra mins enough to argue about to lose a whole batch of beer?" I said nope..not really and so I've just always done 90 with that mindset.

So again...I don't think you are going to get a definitive answer so just do what you think is right.
 
Agreed, we are in that opinion based boil time zone. I suppose the malty character of the Oktoberfest will come forward more with a longer boil...but in this case, I think a good thing.

Probably bump up my strike volume to accommodate my boil off at 90, and just go for it. What the heck if there is a chance it matters.

Plus, not entirely off topic.....the mash time with this grain bill. 60 minute single infusion at 150F safe? Probably get me in the middle ground of fermentable sugars with WLP830 yeast considering I predict to finish between 1.010 and 1.013. Sound about right?
 
bruhaha said:
the mash time with this grain bill. 60 minute single infusion at 150F safe? Probably get me in the middle ground of residual sugars with WLP830 yeast considering I predict to finish between 1.010 and 1.013. Sound about right?
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What a coincidence..... I just brewed the same thing last month and bottled this past Sunday.... Oktoberfest with OG 1.053 finished at 1.012 with WLP830 mashed at 153 F for 55 minutes and with WLP830. You're golden.
 
The extra 30 minutes means more boil off/lost volume so adjust for that.

I would try a recipe for both times and see what the difference is for taste. I do know hop utilization will change notably with the longer boil, but as far as DMS I couldn't say as I use 90 min with pilsner malt.

All I would do with the extra half hour is sit on my azz drinking beer anyway!
 
bruhaha said:
I saw this, Dave. I wish we had more conclusive evidence that 90 min boils off more DMS. On the other hand, Brulosophy has tons of blind taste testers which may, in all actuality, be the real conclusion.
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Odds are still roughly 50/50 of a difference between 30 and 90. Personally I'd boil for the normal 60 and call it good enough. I don't taste DMS in mine and it was boiled for about 65.
 
dmtaylor said:
What a coincidence..... I just brewed the same thing last month and bottled this past Sunday.... Oktoberfest with OG 1.053 finished at 1.012 with WLP830 mashed at 153 F for 55 minutes and with WLP830. You're golden.
Click to expand...

Dave, do you mind if I ask your fermentation time and temp schedules?
 
bruhaha said:
Dave, do you mind if I ask your fermentation time and temp schedules?
Click to expand...

Brewed on August 1. Chilled in a cooler with ice bricks overnight. Pitched yeast starter at 55 F on August 2. Added more ice bricks to bring it down to low 50s for a few days, changing out ice bricks twice per day. After roughly 3-4 days, the krausen fell in but it was still fizzing. Checked gravity, it was about 1.025-1.030. Allowed to free rise from that point to 65 F (my Wisconsin basement temperature) for about a week. Airlock activity ceased on about day 10, so I added gelatin and put the ice bricks back in to get to low 50s. Held there for about 4 days. Then bottled on August 15.

Yes, that's right. A good lager beer in just 14 days.
 
dmtaylor said:
Brewed on August 1. Chilled in a cooler with ice bricks overnight. Pitched yeast starter at 55 F on August 2. Added more ice bricks to bring it down to low 50s for a few days, changing out ice bricks twice per day. After roughly 3-4 days, the krausen fell in but it was still fizzing. Checked gravity, it was about 1.025-1.030. Allowed to free rise from that point to 65 F (my Wisconsin basement temperature) for about a week. Airlock activity ceased on about day 10, so I added gelatin and put the ice bricks back in to get to low 50s. Held there for about 4 days. Then bottled on August 15.

Yes, that's right. A good lager beer in just 14 days.
Click to expand...

LOL, you have been reading Brulosophy's Lager G2G in 14 days!! I'll be safe to pitch at 48F and let it ride at 50F for two weeks before D-Resting. I know you're thinking I am old school. Great advice, Dave. Looking forward to a review of your beer.
 
I work at a LHBS. Neither me nor any of my coworkers have ever experienced DMS in our beers. One in particular makes Goses with 50% Pils, no boil. Never had DMS, but it might be covered up by lactic acid? In any case, I firmly believe a 90 minute boil is overkill. You could probably do 30 mins and be fine
 
I've always done 90 min for my Lagers with Pils malt but recently have been cutting back. Did a couple Helles with 60 min boils with no DMS problem so I'm thinking 60 is fine. I'll probably end up at 75 to give the wort a chance to break and settle in before adding my 60 min addition.

I also don't boil as hard as I use to after reading and hearing some things about wort boil heat stress and how it may effect malty flavors and aroma.
 
I was right there with you until....

wobdee said:
I also don't boil as hard as I use to after reading and hearing some things about wort boil heat stress and how it may effect malty flavors and aroma.
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I've never heard that before. As far as I can tell, we should be boiling as hard as we friggin can without the wort all leaping out of the kettle. A good friend of mine who brews the best tasting homebrew of anyone I know (and he has many dozens of medals to prove it as well) swears that the secrets to his success are 1) fresh ingredients (buy brand new malts for every single batch) and 2) boil crazy hard. I honestly don't know why else his beers should taste so great because he uses my own mash tun that I gave him, and my beers weren't that great. But anyway.... I guess if you're like totally torching the fermenter and scorching the wort on the bottom, if that's even possible, that could be a problem. But with a standard turkey fryer style setup or similar? No, I don't think boil vigor is going to hurt your wort, and based on success of others I'd think it can only help.
 
Pangaia said:
I work at a LHBS. Neither me nor any of my coworkers have ever experienced DMS in our beers. One in particular makes Goses with 50% Pils, no boil. Never had DMS, but it might be covered up by lactic acid? In any case, I firmly believe a 90 minute boil is overkill. You could probably do 30 mins and be fine
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I may be on a limb saying this, but modern malting techniques may have gotten us to the point that DMS is not as prevalent as with older malting techniques. Just guessing and not that sure, but fewer and fewer folks are suggesting DMS as before.
 
The Germans would not do it if there was not a reason to do so. That we in the US may not be able to taste the difference is sad, but not authoritative.
 
dmtaylor said:
Brewed on August 1. Chilled in a cooler with ice bricks overnight. Pitched yeast starter at 55 F on August 2. Added more ice bricks to bring it down to low 50s for a few days, changing out ice bricks twice per day. After roughly 3-4 days, the krausen fell in but it was still fizzing. Checked gravity, it was about 1.025-1.030. Allowed to free rise from that point to 65 F (my Wisconsin basement temperature) for about a week. Airlock activity ceased on about day 10, so I added gelatin and put the ice bricks back in to get to low 50s. Held there for about 4 days. Then bottled on August 15.

Yes, that's right. A good lager beer in just 14 days.
Click to expand...

I also do the 14 day method I swear on it. There is a whole thread of people discussing it and how it dosen't work for them...but then in the same breath they talk about how they didn't follow the directions correctly I find so much humor in that. This method works and it rocks! :rockin:
 
LBussy said:
The Germans would not do it if there was not a reason to do so. That we in the US may not be able to taste the difference is sad, but not authoritative.
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No... what's sad is expending energy that doesn't need to be expended.

FWIW, I'm a Certified looney-tunes BJCP judge, not that that means a whole lot. However unlike some judges, I do know what DMS is.

AND... Wisconsin being what it is, I also happen to be half-German... ha!
 
TexasDroughtBrewery said:
I also do the 14 day method I swear on it. There is a whole thread of people discussing it and how it dosen't work for them...but then in the same breath they talk about how they didn't follow the directions correctly I find so much humor in that. This method works and it rocks! :rockin:
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I did it on a Munich Helles a month or so ago and the timeline is just fine. With temp controllers, our lagers can come out so perfectly.

My only comment is he drinks his lager pretty young as paraphrased..."I like to taste my flavors along the way as they develop with aging". I understand his point and support that, and in my case, I rather move the keg to the serving position when it is already fully matured out. Just a preference, and no more than that.

But, in support of his methodology, the fresh lagers are well timed to crash, add gelatin and then rack to keg in the 15 day range.
 
dmtaylor said:
No... what's sad is expending energy that doesn't need to be expended.

FWIW, I'm a Certified looney-tunes BJCP judge, not that that means a whole lot. However unlike some judges, I do know what DMS is.

AND... Wisconsin being what it is, I also happen to be half-German... ha!
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What's your point? I passed the BJCP in I want to say 1995 or so, been brewing since 1990 after living in Germany for nearly 9 years. I'll post my picture of me drinking with Michael Jackson if that will help. :)

I never said the boil was for DMS, although surely that's part of why it evolved. Think back to your studies - we have stylistic tendencies now which are a by-product of historical processes. These processes, while historically correct, may no longer be strictly needed for their original purpose. That however does not mean that they do not still impact the beer in some way.

Whenever something requires an investment, either of time or money, there will always be people who support (even recommend) taking shortcuts. I have often been disappointed with shortcuts and bargains, but rarely disappointed with doing or buying the best I can.

It's not snobbery, it's just the honest truth for those who want to hear it. If a guy is asking if he "can" then sure, that's the answer. "Yes you can." If the question is "is there a difference?" then my answer at least is "yes there is." Is everyone going to be able to tell the difference? I guess we have an answer in this thread.
 
I have a friend who gets out of the shower to pee.

I tell him that's not necessary, but he says he's always done it and will continue. I'm sure his wife loves having water all over their bathroom because he gets out to urinate.

I told him maybe he should just take shorter showers, or squeeze out a piss first if he's so crazy about it. How long do you have to be in the shower for a pee to work it's way up? I mean, come on!

He continues to say it's how he's always done it, and he'll continue to do it that way. He doesn't care if it makes sense to just let it go. Creature of habit...
 
LBussy said:
I never said the boil was for DMS, although surely that's part of why it evolved. Think back to your studies - we have stylistic tendencies now which are a by-product of historical processes. These processes, while historically correct, may no longer be strictly needed for their original purpose. That however does not mean that they do not still impact the beer in some way.
Click to expand...

Please forgive me for my feeble attempts at humor. I's just messing around a bit.

I mostly agree with the above, except that I remain unconvinced that a longer boil does anything special for the beer. Historically, yes, I think that it did. Today.... call a shorter boil a "shortcut" if you like. Personally I just call it a savings of time & energy, as opposed to a waste thereof.

Each of us can choose to experiment and find out our own truth, or do the same as we've always done just because we know it works and no need to challenge what already works. But... we'll never really know if we don't try and don't make the comparison. That's what the Brulosophy thing is all about, and why they get so much respect for challenging all the silly old things that brewers have "known" for years without knowing the reasons why or whether the knowledge even applies anymore today in the 21st century. What I/they/we are finding is that no, we don't have to all do everything one certain way or the way we've always done it. There's just no need and no one right way to do anything anymore.
 
dmtaylor said:
I was right there with you until....



I've never heard that before. As far as I can tell, we should be boiling as hard as we friggin can without the wort all leaping out of the kettle. A good friend of mine who brews the best tasting homebrew of anyone I know (and he has many dozens of medals to prove it as well) swears that the secrets to his success are 1) fresh ingredients (buy brand new malts for every single batch) and 2) boil crazy hard. I honestly don't know why else his beers should taste so great because he uses my own mash tun that I gave him, and my beers weren't that great. But anyway.... I guess if you're like totally torching the fermenter and scorching the wort on the bottom, if that's even possible, that could be a problem. But with a standard turkey fryer style setup or similar? No, I don't think boil vigor is going to hurt your wort, and based on success of others I'd think it can only help.
Click to expand...

Well the theory is a hard boil boils away fresh malt flavors and aroma as well as darkens your wort. I can see how it darkens wort, not 100% sure on the others, still playing around with this along with other things and i have seen some good results especially in my light lagers.
 
k1ngl1ves said:
I have a friend who gets out of the shower to pee.

I tell him that's not necessary, but he says he's always done it and will continue. I'm sure his wife loves having water all over their bathroom because he gets out to urinate.

I told him maybe he should just take shorter showers, or squeeze out a piss first if he's so crazy about it. How long do you have to be in the shower for a pee to work it's way up? I mean, come on!

He continues to say it's how he's always done it, and he'll continue to do it that way. He doesn't care if it makes sense to just let it go. Creature of habit...
Click to expand...


Lets be honest...is it really "a friend"? ;)
 
TexasDroughtBrewery said:
Yeah...im gonna need to see that. :ban:
Click to expand...
I'll see if it's where I remember it being .... if so, be prepared. He was not a good looking guy. What a job he had though!
dmtaylor said:
Please forgive me for my feeble attempts at humor. I's just messing around a bit.
Click to expand...
And you mine ... we're all here for fun (and beer)!

dmtaylor said:
I mostly agree with the above, except that I remain unconvinced that a longer boil does anything special for the beer.
Click to expand...
And you may. It's just that things like the maillard reaction are science, not superstition. We know they are real, we know they happen, and we know they have an impact on aroma and taste.

dmtaylor said:
Each of us can choose to experiment and find out our own truth
Click to expand...
And we should. What I object to (maybe that's a strong word) is not knowing and still suggesting that someone can shortcut nature and science. Sometimes you can, sometimes ...

dmtaylor said:
That's what the Brulosophy thing is all about, and why they get so much respect for challenging all the silly old things that brewers have "known" for years without knowing the reasons why or whether the knowledge even applies anymore today in the 21st century.
Click to expand...
Folks suggesting that we blindly take shortcuts because they say so are backed up by less of a body of knowledge than folks who suggest there might be something to tradition. I'm not saying we can't challenge and test, I'm saying that we should not throw everything out just because someone did a couple tests and could not immediately support the tradition. I love experimentation as much as the next guy; but if it counts, I'll stick with what I know works. In this case all that will cost me is 30 minutes of boil time. I know I've got that much cleaning to do on something.

Someone in this thread said something to the effect of "you've got a 50:50 shot, why gamble?" (greatly paraphrased) If you're asking, you probably don't want to gamble.

But hey, that's just me. I'm old and cranky and ... hey GET OFF MY LAWN!!
 
LBussy said:
I'll see if it's where I remember it being .... if so, be prepared. He was not a good looking guy. What a job he had though!

And you mine ... we're all here for fun (and beer)!


And you may. It's just that things like the maillard reaction are science, not superstition. We know they are real, we know they happen, and we know they have an impact on aroma and taste.


And we should. What I object to (maybe that's a strong word) is not knowing and still suggesting that someone can shortcut nature and science. Sometimes you can, sometimes ...


Folks suggesting that we blindly take shortcuts because they say so are backed up by less of a body of knowledge than folks who suggest there might be something to tradition. I'm not saying we can't challenge and test, I'm saying that we should not throw everything out just because someone did a couple tests and could not immediately support the tradition. I love experimentation as much as the next guy; but if it counts, I'll stick with what I know works. In this case all that will cost me is 30 minutes of boil time. I know I've got that much cleaning to do on something.

Someone in this thread said something to the effect of "you've got a 50:50 shot, why gamble?" (greatly paraphrased) If you're asking, you probably don't want to gamble.

But hey, that's just me. I'm old and cranky and ... hey GET OFF MY LAWN!!
Click to expand...

Epic Multi quote! :rockin::ban:
 
LBussy said:
I'll post my picture of me drinking with Michael Jackson if that will help. :)
Click to expand...
TexasDroughtBrewery said:
Yeah...im gonna need to see that. :ban:
Click to expand...
As promised, and yes that's a mullet and a drug-rug. :p:rockin:

Capture.PNG
 
Well, we got pretty interesting on this one! Lots of various ways to do things for sure.

I am bringing online now a Helles that is absolutely spectacular. I followed Brulosophy's time lines and was in the keg lagering on day 15. I'll admit that I lagered the beer for a full month at 32F, but the beer was kegged on Brulosophy's fermentation and racking schedule. I'd imagine a German brewer from the 1800's would roll over in the grave to learn of this. Modern technology has provided tools for this to exist. We moved the beer from caves in the cool months to temp controlled vessels in any month. But, I dare say, old school technique would shun modern advances.

BUT, the Helles I mentioned above was mashed for 90 min and boiled for 90 minutes. If this beer is spectacular by design, do I dare mess with said design? I wish I had the answer whether to mash for 60 and boil for 60, and if I did, would this be noticeable in my beer. Sure I'd save an hour total and a buck's worth of propane, but is it worth the savings to cut corners even if the beer is only a "tiny" bit better the longer method.
 
I boiled my Helles for 90 but only did a 60 min mash. I have to agree I really love a nice Helles and I did the Brulosphy time schedule also. Full disclosure I've never made a lager without using his schedule.. .
 
k1ngl1ves said:
I have a friend who gets out of the shower to pee.

I tell him that's not necessary, but he says he's always done it and will continue. I'm sure his wife loves having water all over their bathroom because he gets out to urinate.

I told him maybe he should just take shorter showers, or squeeze out a piss first if he's so crazy about it. How long do you have to be in the shower for a pee to work it's way up? I mean, come on!

He continues to say it's how he's always done it, and he'll continue to do it that way. He doesn't care if it makes sense to just let it go. Creature of habit...
Click to expand...

Pee while taking a shower. http://www.sheknows.com/health-and-.../8-reasons-you-should-pee-in-the-shower-today
 
dmtaylor said:
A good friend of mine who brews the best tasting homebrew of anyone I know (and he has many dozens of medals to prove it as well) swears that the secrets to his success are 1) fresh ingredients (buy brand new malts for every single batch) and 2) boil crazy hard.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily disagreeing here, but I am wondering how he knows the malts he buys are fresh unless he lives across the street from a maltster.
 
LBussy said:
Doh!

My beer is in my hands?

You can't tell I'm drinking in this one either, but I think maybe from the sh*t-eating grin on my face you can see that more than a few beers have passed my lips.
Click to expand...

I ran across Michael at the 1993 National Homebrewers Conference. First, when I had him sign my copy of Great Beers of Belgium. The second time I was standing in line at the Oregon Brewers Festival (which was the weekend right after the conference) and the guy behind me asked me what I thought about what I was drinking. I turned around and it was Michael. I told him and what I said was almost exactly what ended up in his his next Pocket Guide to Beer. I was thrilled and honored. :mug:

But, alas, no pictures.
 
I did 60 for a maibock and it was fine. Really, I probably boiled for 65-70 minutes waiting for hot break to clear before first hop addition.
 

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