Help with Black Patent in Stout Experiment

I've been brewing for years, but haven't done a lot of systematic experimentation, preferring instead to brew what I have been in the mood for drinking (usually trusted recipes). I still haven't brewed a SMaSH.

Anyway, I want to brew up a 6 gallon batch of something like O'Flainagain's Standard (sp?), minus the roasted malts. Then I want to split the beer into 3 2 gallon batches adding steeped chocolate malt to one, rb to another and black patent to a third. I want to do this to better understand what each brings to the table flavor-wise.

Should I add an equal amount of each grain (10%), or adjust for color (adding more chocolate, since it isn't as dark)? Will the Black Patent be too much in a beer like this? I've read that there's a lot of it in Obsidian stout. I'm going for a highish mash temp and low attenuating yeast, so that should provide some backbone to balance, even in a small beer. Will it be enough?

A guy here in italy did the same experiment, with the same three malts. But a proper mash, thinking that the steeping would be different from the roasted grain mash.
Here the report, only in italian:
http://grotta-scalzopiede.blogspot.it/2016/01/risultati-test-sui-grani-tostati.html?m=1

I read this and the original thread through Google Translate. I'm not sure which 'path' he ended up using. It seems like the Black Patent wasn't undrinkable, so I'm thinking about using the same amount for each.

Do you know what his recipe was?

I have never heard of people using black patent malt to flavor a beer (quite the opposite), as it's mainly used for color correction -- especially getting that vinous tan head. In fact, if you opt to use black barley over roasted barley (550L v 450L), you can omit BPM altogether.

Wouldn't use more than 4-6% of chocolate malt or roasted barley, and no more than 1-2% of BPM, if at all. I imagine that 10% BPM would taste close to a tire fire, if that's what you're going for.

specharka said:

I have never heard of people using black patent malt to flavor a beer (quite the opposite), as it's mainly used for color correction -- especially getting that vinous tan head. In fact, if you opt to use black barley over roasted barley (550L v 450L), you can omit BPM altogether.

Wouldn't use more than 4-6% of chocolate malt or roasted barley, and no more than 1-2% of BPM, if at all. I imagine that 10% BPM would taste close to a tire fire, if that's what you're going for.

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Thanks for the comment, but I'm not sure you got the question. I'm making 3 beers, each with only one roasted malt. I threw out 10% because that's amount in a classic dry stout. This thread talks about a stout with almost a pound and a half of BP that is very will reviewed, so I'm not that scared.

I made porters aiming at the same SRM using pale malt and either brown or patent. The patent was a bit thin and unidimensional but the brown was complex and impressive.

tennesseean_87 said:

Thanks for the comment, but I'm not sure you got the question. I'm making 3 beers, each with only one roasted malt. I threw out 10% because that's amount in a classic dry stout. This thread talks about a stout with almost a pound and a half of BP that is very will reviewed, so I'm not that scared.

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I appreciate your insight, but I don't think you understood my response. That thread actually uses black barley, not black patent malt. While sounding similar, they are actually different grains. Roasted and black barley are unmalted grains and impact foam color and head retention; black patent malt is malted and dehusked after roasting (to prevent excessive astringency).

EDIT: Looks like this experiment has been performed already!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/30/ro...ley-vs-black-patent-malt-exbeeriment-results/

specharka said:

I appreciate your insight, but I don't think you understood my response. That thread actually uses black barley, not black patent malt. While sounding similar, they are actually different grains. Roasted and black barley are unmalted grains and impact foam color and head retention; black patent malt is malted and dehusked after roasting (to prevent excessive astringency).

EDIT: Looks like this experiment has been performed already!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/30/ro...ley-vs-black-patent-malt-exbeeriment-results/

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to that exbeeriment!

If you read the thread I linked, it is not Black Roasted Barley, but Black Patent Malt that is being discussed. I know they are different grains, hence the whole point of this thread--tasting the difference for myself.

tennesseean_87 said:

Thanks for the link to that exbeeriment!



If you read the thread I linked, it is not Black Roasted Barley, but Black Patent Malt that is being discussed. I know they are different grains, hence the whole point of this thread--tasting the difference for myself.

Click to expand...

Not sure if you've already done all this by now but I've been doing something similar trying to cover as many specialty malts as possible. I generally shoot for around 4.5% and 15IBU, use the same base malt, hops and yeast. The only changing variable being the specialty malt which I set between 5-10% of the grist.
While I haven't done this with black patent I have brewed with it before and it reminds me of roast barley with a stronger roast and a sort of ashy/smokey character I like. I don't know if you like it but the odds are you've tasted it in porters or stouts before.
Roast barley tastes like coffee and chocolate malt reminds me of tootsie rolls with a hint of roast. I've used up to 10% of them in my grist with good results, though once you get closer to 15% or more things can get harsh if the rest of the recipe doesn't balance it out. But for what your doing here staying in the 5-10% range is plenty to get a feel for the malts.

specharka said:

black patent malt is malted and dehusked after roasting (to prevent excessive astringency).

Click to expand...

This isn't correct. Black patent malt is not dehusked, and quite commonly is used to impart roasted flavor in porters and stouts. It is similar to roasted barley in that respect, but the flavor is a little different - I find it a little smoother and less espresso like. While roasted barley is more common theses days in stouts that wasn't always the case, and both can be used based on preference - see references below.

There are also dehusked black malts which provide less roast and astrignency lb per lb than the non-dehusked black malts - for example the carafa special malts from Dingemans (their regular carafa malts are not dehusked). These malts would be commonly used when you want the color but don't want so much of the roast component in the flavor, for example in schwarzbiers or black IPA's.

edit, the malster I was referring to is Weyermann's

http://byo.com/malt/item/155-back-in-black-the-truth-about-black-patent-malt
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/02/difference-between-stout-and-porter.html
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?idkat=19&umenue=yes&idmenue=&sprache=2

Btw, when I was looking at a proper stout / porter grist around a year ago I went through quite a lot of work and ended up settling in one of the classic 19th century grists. The main lesson was that, although black patent is great it is much better in combination with other malts. If I remember right I ended up with 15% Brown malt, 5% Amber malt, 2% Black patent, and 78% MO. Roasty, smooth, complex, plenty of body and ages like a beast.

Brown malt is really good stuff. The smoked Porter I have on right now has a little over 10% and is delicious. Come to think of it it has about 5% black patent in it too lol.

chickypad said:

This isn't correct. Black patent malt is not dehusked, and quite commonly is used to impart roasted flavor in porters and stouts. It is similar to roasted barley in that respect, but the flavor is a little different - I find it a little smoother and less espresso like. While roasted barley is more common theses days in stouts that wasn't always the case, and both can be used based on preference - see references below.

There are also dehusked black malts which provide less roast and astrignency lb per lb than the non-dehusked black malts - for example the carafa special malts from Dingemans (their regular carafa malts are not dehusked). These malts would be commonly used when you want the color but don't want so much of the roast component in the flavor, for example in schwarzbiers or black IPA's.

edit, the malster I was referring to is Weyermann's

http://byo.com/malt/item/155-back-in-black-the-truth-about-black-patent-malt
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/02/difference-between-stout-and-porter.html
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?idkat=19&umenue=yes&idmenue=&sprache=2

Click to expand...

Yeah I realize now I was confusing it with debittered black malt.

When I use Black Patent, I grind in the spice grinder and cold steep overnight, less astringency.

I haven'et brewed this yet. I think it may be a little while. I just brewed a brown today, and I think a Dunkelweizen will be next. Based on the exbeeriment posted above which noted little difference between RB and BP, I think I'll just go ahead and use 10% of each roasted grain.

This is a really late follow-up. I did the experiment a while ago by brewing a batch of pale beer and adding each of the roasted grains at bottling time. There was no issue with the BP being too astringent. The Chocolate was smoother, lighter, and a little bland to my palate. I think I might have liked the BP the best, though it was very similar to the RB.

Imho, a little bit of black patent goes a long way. I use it a moderate amount, and I don’t think I really go over .25 lb in a 5 gallon batch.