Decision Time.. Need advice on mash phase of my new brewery

Hi, I'm almost done with my new brewery build which can be seen in my BUILD THREAD..

Anyways, It's a single vessel, Electric BIAB system with recirculation during Mash and cooling...

I am at the point where I need to set up the mash basket and associated plumbing, and have some ideas running through my head, but need to get advice as to feasibility, some ideas for problem solving, and success/horror stories of others who have gone down this path before me...

Essentially, I have a crane that will lower a Bayou Classic basket with a bag full of grains in it, down into the keggle for the mash.. A pump is fed from the bottom of the keggle and sent back up to the top of the keggle through 1/2" silicone tubing to the mash grain basket...

So I need to decide how I want to return the wort to the grains during mash, and how to rinse them afterwards to get as much of the sugars from them as possible..

What I was originally planning on doing was to build a COFI tube from 1/2" copper tube and drilling holes in it, but I have been trying to figure out how to incorporate that into a basket mount that will support the basket if the crane is detached.. I want to support it by hanging it on the top of the keggle, but I'd like to make it so that it is easily removable allowing the basket to slide all the way down into the keggle during storage once the heating element is removed.. That will allow me to store pretty much everything (keggle support stand, pump, hoses, heater element, etc.) in the keggle, and put it under my brew stand/counter when not in use..

I'm visualizing some sort of spider that the COFI tube mounts to, that sits on the keggle rim, and the basket hangs from the spider in 3 or 4 places (maybe with SS screw eyes sticking up from the rim of the basket, and the spider legs sliding though them)

So, I am looking for pros and cons of the COFI tube method, examples of those who have made their own, any hybrids, and experiences with them...

Secondly, I was originally planning to slowly raise the grains and allow the pump to keep recirculating through the grains as a rinse step, but then I got to thinking, would not it be better to just run the fresh make up water through them while the basket is raised out of the wort to rinse the grains?

If so, would I want to use the COFI tube for this too, or would I want to switch to something else that is more like a shower head to hit the entire top of the grain bed and let it drain down through the grains?

Also, I have a tankless water heater for my house, and it is set to 145 degrees, so the hottest I could run through there as fresh water is about 130-135 degrees (the temp by the time it hits point of use).. This is far short of the 165-170 degrees that is typically used for the rinse step in a traditional mash/rinse set up (like my old mash tun/cooler).. Is that a problem? Or would cold water be a better thing to use to rinse it with?

Or there any benefit in doing this at all?

How is the rinse phase of mashing typically accomplished in BIAB systems?

Anyways, I have to come up with a plan to start working towards pretty much 'now'.. so any and all help is appreciated...

Recirculating wort thru the grain bed will not rinse additional sugar from the grains, as the grains and wort should be in concentration equilibrium after a recirculating (or well stirred for a static) mash. To extract additional sugar you need to add fresh water. To get the highest lauter efficiency with your configuration, do a batch sparge, and recirculate to bring the sparge wort and grain into concentration equilibrium. I don't think your configuration lends itself to a fly sparge that could beat a batch sparge for efficiency.

Others have found the need to increase the open area of Bayou Classic baskets in order to get adequate drainage, and keep from pumping the volume under the basket dry.

Brew on

The whole point of this build is to get away from the multi vessel thing.. So batch sparging is out.. (unless I get so frustrated with efficiency that I feel like I 'must' add a second vessel)


So fly sparging using fresh water while the basket is out of (suspended above) the wort won't wash the sugars out of the grain?.. I was thinking that it 'should' at least get a little more out of them....

And that's what I was thinking about using wort to try and rinse with, you're adding sugars back in to wash the others out... which is why I'm wondering about sparging with fresh water with the basket out of the wort..

and yes, I fully expect to have to take my greenlee hole punches (an advantage of being an electrical contractor.. ) to the basket, although I thought I'd try it without modification first..

r8rphan said:

...

So fly sparging using fresh water while the basket is out of (suspended above) the wort won't wash the sugars out of the grain?.. I was thinking that it 'should' at least get a little more out of them....

Click to expand...

Pouring/spraying fresh water over the grain in the basket will get out additional sugar, and improve your efficiency. It's probably not going to be as efficient as a proper batch sparge or a well conducted fly sparge. It will also not be as consistent (read predictable.) Predictability is more important than maximizing efficiency. But it might be predictable enough.

Brew on

r8rphan said:

Or there any benefit in doing this at all?

Click to expand...

Sounds like you are pretty far down the rabbit hole already j/k

While a sparge step will increase your efficiency, an extra pound of grain can simplify the process.

I like to keep everything as simple as possible and dial in from there. How close a fit is your basket to the keggle? A large volume outside the basket can be an issue with larger grain bill resulting in a thicker mash inside the basket.

wilserbrewer said:

Sounds like you are pretty far down the rabbit hole already j/k

While a sparge step will increase your efficiency, an extra pound of grain can simplify the process.

I like to keep everything as simple as possible and dial in from there. How close a fit is your basket to the keggle? A large volume outside the basket can be an issue with larger grain bill resulting in a thicker mash inside the basket.

Click to expand...

The basket is 12.5" diameter, and the keggle is 15" diameter.. So there is a 1.25" space all around the basket... Is that a problem?

By sparge step increasing efficiency, I am assuming you are referring to my question about using fresh water that I have to add to the wort anyways for this? If so, does it matter what temperature is used?

The eBIAB system that I use looks very similar to the setup that you mention. I sparge my grains by lifting the basket of grains above the wort and then pouring 168F sparge water through them. With the room created by lifting out the grains the sparge tops off the wort in the kettle to the pre-boil volume.

ScrewyBrewer said:

The eBIAB system that I use looks very similar to the setup that you mention. I sparge my grains by lifting the basket of grains above the wort and then pouring 168F sparge water through them. With the room created by lifting out the grains the sparge tops off the wort in the kettle to the pre-boil volume.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I'm talking about doing.. As stated in the original post, the hottest I can get to will be about 135 degrees or so for the sparge water.. Is this an issue, or would it be better to use cold water?

I understand that just below 170 is ideal, but isn't that mainly to just release as much remaining sugar as possible without creating tanins? I'm wondering how much having a lower temp sparge water affects that?

Also, how do you have it set up for the sprage? What method are you using to actually deposit the sparge water in or on the grain? Picture?

What kind of efficiencies are you getting?

Sparge water temp matters little. Although the hotter the sparge water, the quicker the heat to boil time will be.

Brew on

So as everyone can understand what I'm doing here, here are a couple pictures of the system so far...

From reading in another thread, it sounds like using cold water (or hot water from the tap) to sparge with won't really be a big deal.. It should work fine..

Here's a couple shots showing the general plumbing

I'm thinking that maybe before I build a COFI tube and all that, I should just try a batch with the hose laying on top of the grain bed along the side of the basket so that it just whirlpools in... and then adjust things on the next batch as needed...

I'm thinking I might even try one of these right off the bat, and maybe it will be all I need for both mash and sparge... Seems like I can get what I need for around $20 plus another $15 or so for a ball valve and cam lock QD....

Might go ahead and punch out the basket before the first batch...

Thoughts?

I wouldn't use hot water right out of the tap for sparging. Probably needs campden treatment (for chlorine/chloramines), and maybe acidification to prevent tannin extraction (depends on your water's alkalinity.)

Brew on

I use well water.. So no chlorine.. Does that make any difference?

r8rphan said:

I use well water.. So no chlorine.. Does that make any difference?

Click to expand...

You shouldn't need campden. What is the alkalinity of your water?

Brew on

doug293cz said:

You shouldn't need campden. What is the alkalinity of your water?

Brew on

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I dunno, a PH tester is one of those things that has been 'on the list' for like 5 years..

But I had always been in the habit of adding some 5.2 stabilizer to my mash tun just in case... But I added enough for the entire post boil wort in with the mash itself, not with the batch sparge water, as it was all added together in the BK..

I wonder how I could do that during a fresh water sparge?

Anyone assembled the loc-line pieces without the assembly tool? Is it necessary? Or will I hate myself for not buying it?

I love tools, and collect/hoard them like they're going out of style, but I'm not sure about this one as I'll probably only use it once....

r8rphan said:

I dunno, a PH tester is one of those things that has been 'on the list' for like 5 years..

But I had always been in the habit of adding some 5.2 stabilizer to my mash tun just in case... But I added enough for the entire post boil wort in with the mash itself, not with the batch sparge water, as it was all added together in the BK..

I wonder how I could do that during a fresh water sparge?

Click to expand...

A pH meter won't tell you what your alkalinity is, and pH of the starting water is pretty much meaningless for brewing. The alkalinity determines who much the water can raise the pH of the mash, which is what does matter. High pH water with low alkalinity can't raise mash pH much. You need to get a water report from Ward labs, or get a "do it yourself" alkalinity test kit.

Also, the water experts on HBT tell us that 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Better off learning what is in your water, and adjusting as needed. It's not that difficult to do, and you don't have to understand the underlying chemistry in order to use the tools available.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

A pH meter won't tell you what your alkalinity is, and pH of the starting water is pretty much meaningless for brewing. The alkalinity determines who much the water can raise the pH of the mash, which is what does matter. High pH water with low alkalinity can't raise mash pH much. You need to get a water report from Ward labs, or get a "do it yourself" alkalinity test kit.

Also, the water experts on HBT tell us that 5.2 stabilizer is worthless. Better off learning what is in your water, and adjusting as needed. It's not that difficult to do, and you don't have to understand the underlying chemistry in order to use the tools available.

Brew on

Click to expand...

Reading an informative article on the subject, and 'this' might be why I never seem to be able to get the hop flavor I'm after... Everything always seems to be on the malty side... Could 'never' get decent aroma.. I have been going through all sorts of ideas in my head to try and increase hop flavor/aroma, because dry hopping in the keg wasn't really doing anything either.. I started using a hop randall in line between the keg and the faucet, but that clouded up the beer and made it more bitter, but still not the aroma...

probably also why the beer kits I would buy from B3, that used extract and crushed specialty grains always seemed better than my own...

WATER CHEMISTRY ARTICLE

So, I had always assumed that my water was good water because it was well water, and that whatever issues it might have would be fixed with the 5.2 stuff... 'Assuming' strikes again!

Anyways, $50 bucks for a water test is kinda steep for a one time deal...

I only see two kits available for brewing thus far, LaMotte brew lab basic at $110 and LaMotte brewlab plus (includes Digital PH meter) for $180...

Crap! More money!

Is there a less expensive alternative to those two kits, that would allow me to test regularly here at home?

I think Ward labs is less than $20 for the relevant brewing water tests.

$42

WARD LABS BREWERS TEST PRICES

That includes Shipping.. It's $27.50 if you get your own container, packaging, and ship yourself...

There is a local ag testing lab down in the valley.. I called them a bit ago and have to call back because the pricing lady was out to lunch..

But the problem with doing it that way, is you have no way to test after you've made adjustments.. or no way to test periodically to see if the water is consistent.. or is any of that important?

Well, the local lab is out.. They want $20 for each thing tested... That would cost a small fortune..

If I were to start with distilled water, would I be able to know what to add to it without any testing? Perhaps I could do that for a couple batches, and then get a home testing kit a couple months down the road?

I think a good plan of attack is to stay on course for now... I'm gonna order a book on water chemistry for brewers, and in the mean time I'm going to just keep going as I originally planned.. If feasible, I'll use distilled water and modify it as if it were a blank slate... I'll use a bucket to have modified water for the sparge, and come up with a way to switch out the drain of the keggle that is normally connected to the pump, to the bucket and have it feed the pump and on up to the lifted basket...

In the mean time, I'll plan on buying a test kit, and almost certainly get my water tested at Ward Labs....

So the first batch might just be straight from the tap and not worrying about it... Call it a test run where I can dial in things like recirculation speed, and see if I have any problems with flow or what not, and adjust what I can on the fly... The next batch I'll probably do the distilled water thing, and then hopefully, by the time I do the batch after that, I can have had the water tested and be thinking about getting a test kit...

I'll keep the yeast side of things simple and straightforward for now, focusing on getting the mash process and a new fermenter set up...

That's enough to deal with for now...

So, back to talking about the best sparging set up for me..

I'm in a similar situation. I've gone single vessel eBIAB, with full volume mash. But I'm not too happy with conversion time with such a thin mash. Clean up time savings is being lost to extended mash time.

Next batch I'll probably go with a thicker mash, and do a dunk sparge in treated cold water in a bucket, then add to kettle, and stop squeezing the stupid bag. Should be simple clean up from there.

The easiest thing for you to do is use RO (reverse osmosis) or distilled water, and build up a suitable water profile. Both RO and distilled are close enough to blank slates that you can assume that's what they are. Use Bru'nWater, EZWater, or BrewersFriend to calculate your water additions (I prefer Bru'n.) Put in your grain bill and adjust the additions for a predicted 5.45 pH. The calculators are not perfect, but if you are anywhere near 5.4 - 5.5 you should get good results. However, there is an on-going cost of about $0.35 - $1.00/gal for purchased water.

The mineral content and alkalinity from wells can vary throughout the year, depending on how your aquifer is fed. One strategy would be to get a test just past the end of the local dry season, and again just past the end of the local wet season. This should hopefully give you a good idea of the range that you can experience from your well. If the range is tight enough, you may be able to work from an "average" profile and be ok. If the range thru the year is high, then sticking with RO or distilled may be your best bet. If you are going to use RO long term, it may be cost effective to install your own RO system.

I don't have any experience or particular expertise in water testing kits, so can't offer any suggestions there. Head over to the Brew Science Forum to ask about water testing and adjustment.

Brew on

sketchykg said:

I'm in a similar situation. I've gone single vessel eBIAB, with full volume mash. But I'm not too happy with conversion time with such a thin mash. Clean up time savings is being lost to extended mash time.

Next batch I'll probably go with a thicker mash, and do a dunk sparge in treated cold water in a bucket, then add to kettle, and stop squeezing the stupid bag. Should be simple clean up from there.

Click to expand...

Thinner mashes actually convert faster than thicker mashes (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Mash_thickness.) If your mashes are taking too long to convert, it is more likely that your crush is too coarse. How are you determining that your mash conversion has gotten worse for a given mash time?

Brew on

doug293cz said:

The easiest thing for you to do is use RO (reverse osmosis) or distilled water, and build up a suitable water profile.

Click to expand...

I'll second @doug293cz advice here. I only use RO water. It's $0.30/gallon at the Kroger down the street. Average batch of beer takes about 8 gallons, so it only costs me about $2.40 per batch. I buy 20-25 gallons at a time so I only need to run to the store every 3 batches or so. This is no big deal for me as there's always something else I need to buy at the grocery store.

Using RO water is important to me because I want repeatable results.

r8rphan said:

The basket is 12.5" diameter, and the keggle is 15" diameter.. So there is a 1.25" space all around the basket... Is that a problem?

Click to expand...

Not sure it is a problem, I am just concerned with how much volume you have outside the basket as compared to inside the basket, from your pics it looks like there is 4 to 4 1/2 gallons of dead space below the basket, and given the dimensions, the basket is only 68% of the cross sectional area of the pot. So with 10 gallons of strike water in the pot, only (10 - 4) X 0.68 = 4 gallons of strike water is available inside the basket for the mash, and with a 12 lb grain bill your at 1 qt/lb mash thickness....I just find it gets odd if the basket is considerably smaller than the vessel, plus dead space below the basket. For large beers you may be short of liquor inside the basket to mash effectively, and be limited on sparge volume if any at all?

A five gallon batch may not be possible, not sure if that is your goal.

wilserbrewer said:

Not sure it is a problem, I am just concerned with how much volume you have outside the basket as compared to inside the basket, from your pics it looks like there is 4 to 4 1/2 gallons of dead space below the basket, and given the dimensions, the basket is only 68% of the cross sectional area of the pot. So with 10 gallons of strike water in the pot, only (10 - 4) X 0.68 = 4 gallons of strike water is available inside the basket for the mash, and with a 12 lb grain bill your at 1 qt/lb mash thickness....I just find it gets odd if the basket is considerably smaller than the vessel, plus dead space below the basket. For large beers you may be short of liquor inside the basket to mash effectively, and be limited on sparge volume if any at all?

A five gallon batch may not be possible, not sure if that is your goal.

Click to expand...

Generally, I do IPAs and Pale Ales.. 11+ gallon batches... Pre boil is typically about 12.5-13 gallons... With my prior efficiency of 80% that means 24-25 pounds of grain for the IPAs, and under 20 for the Pale Ales.... I'd like to get to a point where that efficiency goes up...

I just went out and held the basket against the sight glass at where it will probably be and there is just over 4 gallons below the basket, with 13 gallons about an inch below the top, so that allows 9 gallons x .6904 = 6.21 gallons... is that enough for the type of beers I'm trying to do?

I would like to try a couple of bigger beers at some point, like Arrogant Bastard or Vinnie's Blind Pig clones.. But my basket is probably not big enough to hold all that grain for a 10-11G brew of those, while still allowing for an inch or two of liquid on top of the grain bed.. I figured on those, I'd do an 8 gallon batch or so.....

I hope it's big enough, as custom baskets are not cheap...

I just pulled up some of my old recipes and it appears I was mashing with anywhere from 5.3G strike water for the lighter stuff, to 7.8G for the bigger stuff.. But in general, most of the IPAs were right at 7G and most of the Pale Ales were right at about 6G... That was in a mash tun cooler with no recirculation...

So, as long as I can get the flow going good, I still have an inch of headroom on the basket and can maybe add a little more water.. or if I go with 10G batches instead, I should be getting close to what I had before in regards to strike volume on the IPAs, otherwise, I'll be using about 12-13% less strike water than I was then......

The only time I would be doing a 5 gallon batch is if I bought a beer kit, and that would likely be with malt extract + specialty grains...

While we're on the subject of water, what are the chemical/minerals I will need to have on hand to bring distilled water to where it needs to be, and generally speaking how much will I need per batch (I guess figuring 15-20 gallons of water per batch?)...

From that information, I can decide how much to buy of each to have enough for what I might expect to brew over an extended period of time..

Also, where can I buy all this stuff? Is it something I'd find at the grocery store, garden store, brew store? On line?

r8rphan said:

While we're on the subject of water, what are the chemical/minerals I will need to have on hand to bring distilled water to where it needs to be, and generally speaking how much will I need per batch (I guess figuring 15-20 gallons of water per batch?)...

From that information, I can decide how much to buy of each to have enough for what I might expect to brew over an extended period of time..

Also, where can I buy all this stuff? Is it something I'd find at the grocery store, garden store, brew store? On line?

Click to expand...

For light colored beers you will need Calcium Chloride, Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate), Lactic Acid (or Phosphoric Acid or acidulated malt), and maybe a little Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate.) For dark beers you may also need to have Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate.) You can get baking soda at the grocery store, Epsom salt at the drug store (cause you want USP grade, not foot soaking grade.) The rest you can get at your LHBS or on-line. (You could also get gypsum by carving some out of your dry wall, but I don't think that's food grade )

My water is pretty low mineral content (not quite RO grade), and I typically use around 2.5 - 5 g of gypsum, 2.5 - 5 g of calcium chloride, 0.5 - 1 g of Epsom salt, and 2 - 4 ml of 88% lactic acid in a five gal batch. So you would need to double those quantities plus a little more since your water will be totally blank.

Brew on

creating shopping list ipe:

doug293cz said:

Thinner mashes actually convert faster than thicker mashes (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Mash_thickness.) If your mashes are taking too long to convert, it is more likely that your crush is too coarse. How are you determining that your mash conversion has gotten worse for a given mash time?

Brew on

Click to expand...

Iodine tests. I couldn't get a really good conversion test that i was fully happy with, after my planned 90 minute mash for another 30 minutes. I forget what my mill gap is, but I did double crush my malt.

That link seems to conflict, with John Palmer here, where he wrote:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars.

But my extenuating circumstances in this case were:

• Brewing a light lager with 20% of the grist consisting of corn malt, and no six row to up the enzyme content. I did add some "Amylase Enzyme", but I think that is all alpha, and not the greatest help here.
• Mashing at a lower temperature - 148 degrees for a more fermentable wort, which is beta amylase dominant, but is beta is less stable in thin mashes. (mash PH was measured at 5.17)
• Since I was doing a 90 minute boil, expecting a large amount of boil off and had a relatively small grain bill, my grist to water ratio was especially high. 3.4 qt/lb.

I'm guessing that when I get to a smaller grist/water ratio, my conversion times should be less extreme, but I think I need to explore introducing some sparge steps in cases like my last recipe.

sketchykg said:

Iodine tests. I couldn't get a really good conversion test that i was fully happy with, after my planned 90 minute mash for another 30 minutes. I forget what my mill gap is, but I did double crush my malt.

That link seems to conflict, with John Palmer here, where he wrote:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars.

But my extenuating circumstances in this case were:

• Brewing a light lager with 20% of the grist consisting of corn malt, and no six row to up the enzyme content. I did add some "Amylase Enzyme", but I think that is all alpha, and not the greatest help here.
• Mashing at a lower temperature - 148 degrees for a more fermentable wort, which is beta amylase dominant, but is beta is less stable in thin mashes. (mash PH was measured at 5.17)
• Since I was doing a 90 minute boil, expecting a large amount of boil off and had a relatively small grain bill, my grist to water ratio was especially high. 3.4 qt/lb.

I'm guessing that when I get to a smaller grist/water ratio, my conversion times should be less extreme, but I think I need to explore introducing some sparge steps in cases like my last recipe.

Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of the iodine test. I believe the method of measuring the SG of the wort in the mash is much less ambiguous, as well as being quantitative.

There is a problem with the Palmer quote in that the second clause of the sentence is in direct conflict with the first. How can the wort from a thinner mash be more fermentable unless there was more total enzyme action in the same amount of time in the thinner mash, which means the enzyme action had to be faster? It's true that for chemical reactions with simple kinetics (where the reaction of the components is the rate limiting step) that higher reactant concentrations lead to higher reaction rates. However in a mash, the rate limiting step is usually the gelatinization of the starch, which is favored by having a higher water to grain ratio. Thick mashes are also subject to what is known as "substrate inhibition" which basically means the high concentration of starch inhibits the mobility of the enzymes, thus slowing reaction rates.

I doubt your slow mash completion was due to low diastatic power with only 20% corn. Most 2 row malts have enough diastatic power to convert 2 - 4 times their own weight. Unless you used flaked corn, your problem was likely the higher gelatinization temp required for corn (70˚ - 75˚C, 158˚ - 167˚F, ref: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/GelTemps_RL0796.html.) Especially since you mashed at a low temp (148˚F.)

Brew on

doug293cz said:

I'm not a fan of the iodine test. I believe the method of measuring the SG of the wort in the mash is much less ambiguous, as well as being quantitative.

There is a problem with the Palmer quote in that the second clause of the sentence is in direct conflict with the first. How can the wort from a thinner mash be more fermentable unless there was more total enzyme action in the same amount of time in the thinner mash, which means the enzyme action had to be faster? It's true that for chemical reactions with simple kinetics (where the reaction of the components is the rate limiting step) that higher reactant concentrations lead to higher reaction rates. However in a mash, the rate limiting step is usually the gelatinization of the starch, which is favored by having a higher water to grain ratio. Thick mashes are also subject to what is known as "substrate inhibition" which basically means the high concentration of starch inhibits the mobility of the enzymes, thus slowing reaction rates.

I doubt your slow mash completion was due to low diastatic power with only 20% corn. Most 2 row malts have enough diastatic power to convert 2 - 4 times their own weight. Unless you used flaked corn, your problem was likely the higher gelatinization temp required for corn (70˚ - 75˚C, 158˚ - 167˚F, ref: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/GelTemps_RL0796.html.) Especially since you mashed at a low temp (148˚F.)

Brew on

Click to expand...

What is the concern with the iodine test? EDIT: nevermind, you addressed that. Currently I don't take a mash gravity measurement until the iodine test is to my liking.

The corn was "corn malt" from a small local maltster. They claim it "can be used in place of flaked corn." I debated cooking it anyway, but just went with chopping it up in a blender before running through my mill with the malt.

Gravity numbers wise after using it for the first time, it seems like a flaked corn was a good approximation. In the Beersmith recipe I just used the "flaked corn" for recipe. But I can't discount that it may have influenced the mash behavior here.

The gravity estimates versus my measurements:
Pre-boil gravity: Estimated: 1.035, Measured: 1.036
Original Gravity: Estimated: 1.047, Measured: 1.050 (boil-off slightly off.)
Final Gravity: Estimated: 1.008, Current: 1.011 (took measurement a couple days ago, before starting a diacetyl rest, so not sure if fermentation was fully complete at that time.)

Thanks for taking the time to pick at my assumptions. Learning a lot!

sketchykg said:

What is the concern with the iodine test? EDIT: nevermind, you addressed that. Currently I don't take a mash gravity measurement until the iodine test is to my liking.

The corn was "corn malt" from a small local maltster. They claim it "can be used in place of flaked corn." I debated cooking it anyway, but just went with chopping it up in a blender before running through my mill with the malt.

Gravity numbers wise after using it for the first time, it seems like a flaked corn was a good approximation. In the Beersmith recipe I just used the "flaked corn" for recipe. But I can't discount that it influenced the mash behavior here.

The gravity estimates versus my measurements:
Pre-boil gravity: Estimated: 1.035, Measured: 1.036
Original Gravity: Estimated: 1.047, Measured: 1.050 (boil-off slightly off.)
Final Gravity: Estimated: 1.008, Current: 1.011 (took measurement a couple days ago, before starting a diacetyl rest, so not sure if fermentation was fully complete at that time.)

Thanks for taking the time to pick at my assumptions. Learning a lot!

Click to expand...

Flaked grains are pre-gelatinized, so they don't need a cereal mash. Malting by itself does not provide any gelatinization. Thus I doubt that corn malt is transparent w.r.t. mash process compared to flaked corn (i.e. the corn malt still needs a cereal mash.)

The iodine test usually gives different results if you include or exclude grits in the test. It's easier to get a clean "complete" indication if you exclude the grits, but under normal conditions, the unconverted starch is contained in the grits. This is a result of gelatinization being the rate limiting step. There is very little unconverted starch in the liquid wort after the first few minutes of the mash, but there can still be lots of starch in the grits.

Brew on

Ordered a book on water for brewing yesterday along with all the 1/2" line I need to transfer wort to fermenter... Also ordered a loc line setup for the mash...

Picked up enough cam lock fittings today to replace everything with those, I also got the tap and drill and hardware to create the adjustable tensioner doo hickey on top of the crane swivel.. Bought a 60L Speidel fermenter and a couple SS accessories for it... Also had a 1/2" bung welded into the bottom of the bowl on the bottom I cut off of my keggle, which once I make a little stand for it, will be 'perfect' to set the grain basket on, and squeeze out whatever wort I can from it.. Should just run out the bottom of the new dish dealie through a hose into a collection container as I squeeze...

Almost there!

Also asked and found out that they carry all the chemicals/minerals I might need for water treatment at the local HBS....

Within a week or two, I might actually be ready to think about brewing a batch of beer! I sure hope so, because the money thing is starting to get out of hand....

r8rphan said:

That's pretty much what I'm talking about doing.. As stated in the original post, the hottest I can get to will be about 135 degrees or so for the sparge water.. Is this an issue, or would it be better to use cold water?

I understand that just below 170 is ideal, but isn't that mainly to just release as much remaining sugar as possible without creating tanins? I'm wondering how much having a lower temp sparge water affects that?

Also, how do you have it set up for the sprage? What method are you using to actually deposit the sparge water in or on the grain? Picture?

What kind of efficiencies are you getting?

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My brewing system consistently yields 70-75% efficiency. Sparging with water temperatures that are higher than 168F shouldn't present any problems with tannin extraction either, that reasoning seems to becoming more and more of a homebrewing myth lately.

doug293cz said:

Flaked grains are pre-gelatinized, so they don't need a cereal mash. Malting by itself does not provide any gelatinization. Thus I doubt that corn malt is transparent w.r.t. mash process compared to flaked corn (i.e. the corn malt still needs a cereal mash.)

The iodine test usually gives different results if you include or exclude grits in the test. It's easier to get a clean "complete" indication if you exclude the grits, but under normal conditions, the unconverted starch is contained in the grits. This is a result of gelatinization being the rate limiting step. There is very little unconverted starch in the liquid wort after the first few minutes of the mash, but there can still be lots of starch in the grits.

Brew on

Click to expand...

Sorry to keep hijacking the thread, but for anyone following along, just confirming doug's comments, and what I did to address it. After taking some more reading on this "american lager" I have in the fridge, the gravity was relatively unchanged. There was still kind of a haze to the beer that I would assume would be a "starch haze" after reading a little bit about it - it just didn't look like a "normal" fermented beer. It didn't taste bad, but didn't look right.

I dosed the carboy with a teaspoon of Amylase Enzyme, and I have some light fermentation activity since this morning, and the beer looks different, and more "normal" and a slight "milkiness" is gone. I'll give it another week or two,or until the activity ends, and then will continue my cold crash.

Thanks doug293cz!