Help a know-nothing formulate two meads

I came home from shopping yesterday with a couple interesting fermentables. A farmer was selling his sweet osmanthus (桂&#33457 honey at a reasonable price, so I brought home a couple kilos - 2.15 kg to be exact. It's light in color, somewhat floral, very sweet, and has a thinner consistency than most honey I've had. At my next stop, they had a big box full of German D'arbo brand honey packets - like the ones you'd see on a table at a breakfast diner filled with honey or jam. They were going to throw them out because they had "expired" (but honey doesn't really expire, does it?) with dates of 11/2013-11/2015. I got them for free. When I went through the box at home, I found that half of the contents were honey packets and half were marmalade with the same expiration dates as the honey. The honey tastes like the stuff you'd get in a squeezable plastic bottle shaped like a bear and is labeled "flower honey". The marmalade tastes like marmalade. There are roughly 3-3.5 kilograms of each.

I'd like to make something nice with the osmanthus honey because it's nice farm-fresh honey. I have osmanthus flowers (very fragrant - sweet and floral and almost like candy on the aroma) that could be used for synergy or character, and I'd be happy to seek out any other ingredients to make a nice drink out of this stuff.

As for the cheap honey, I could whip up a couple gallons of JAOM with pomelo instead of orange - my only experience making mead was three JAOM batches, and the pomelo batch was by far the best - but that seems boring. What else might I try with this stuff? Maybe a burnt mead?

And finally, is there any way I can integrate the marmalade (or use it in some other cooking/fermenting capacity)? I don't think there are any soup kitchen/pantry charities that could use it here, so if I don't ferment it or cook with it it'll be going into the trash, but that seems like such a waste.

I had to google ozmanthus, sounds like it makes for some awesome tea. Does the honey taste like the flowers smell, like with orange blossoms? I think I'd use that ozmanthus honey for an off-dry mead to showcase the honey flavor. As for the other honey, use that for a melomel or maybe mix it with the marmalade & ferment it, provided the marmalade has no preservatives. If you do the marmalade thing, you'll want to be sure to use pectic enzyme.
Regards, GF.

Funnily enough, although I was in the osmanthus capitol of China less than a year ago (the city's named after the flowers, so it's not just some meaningless distinction) and bought some dried flowers for making beer (namely saisons), I didn't buy any osmanthus tea. The tea definitely has some osmanthus flavor to it, but it's not as potent as the flowers, which are pretty in-your-face (in a good way).

Generally, what should I be doing to make an off-dry (semi-sweet?) mead with this honey? Would 5L be a good target volume for 2.15kg of honey or should I aim a bit higher? Presumably I would add osmanthus flowers as well - should that happen in primary or secondary?

For yeast, I have lots of dry beer and wine yeast options, but no liquid yeast - what would be a good yeast to use? My only mead experience is three concurrent gallon batches of JAOM so I know nothing about yeasts or nutrients for mead. Speaking of nutrients, I have DAP (LD Carlson "Yeast Nutrient") and a bit of LD Carlson "Yeast Energizer" (which also contains a lot of DAP), plus some campden tabs that might be useful for killing the yeast when it's done, but what else will I need to successfully make a decent mead out of this honey?

For the other stuff, it seems the small tabletop packets of D'arbo Orange Marmelade contain Potassium Sorbate. Holy crap was there a lot of hoop-jumping for me to find that fact; you'd think they would have nutrition information and ingredients listed on the package or their website, but no dice on either of them. I assume that means they can't be fermented? According to the source I found the honey is pure, so it should ferment alright. Would there be any value in trying something interesting like a bochet with honey-bear-style "flower" honey, or should I just JAOM it? At 3-3.5kg, I'd probably split it between a couple gallon jugs and forget about it until the spring like I did last time?

FatDragon said:

Funnily enough, although I was in the osmanthus capitol of China less than a year ago (the city's named after the flowers, so it's not just some meaningless distinction) and bought some dried flowers for making beer (namely saisons), I didn't buy any osmanthus tea. The tea definitely has some osmanthus flavor to it, but it's not as potent as the flowers, which are pretty in-your-face (in a good way).

Generally, what should I be doing to make an off-dry (semi-sweet?) mead with this honey? Would 5L be a good target volume for 2.15kg of honey or should I aim a bit higher? Presumably I would add osmanthus flowers as well - should that happen in primary or secondary?

For yeast, I have lots of dry beer and wine yeast options, but no liquid yeast - what would be a good yeast to use? My only mead experience is three concurrent gallon batches of JAOM so I know nothing about yeasts or nutrients for mead. Speaking of nutrients, I have DAP (LD Carlson "Yeast Nutrient") and a bit of LD Carlson "Yeast Energizer" (which also contains a lot of DAP), plus some campden tabs that might be useful for killing the yeast when it's done, but what else will I need to successfully make a decent mead out of this honey?

For the other stuff, it seems the small tabletop packets of D'arbo Orange Marmelade contain Potassium Sorbate. Holy crap was there a lot of hoop-jumping for me to find that fact; you'd think they would have nutrition information and ingredients listed on the package or their website, but no dice on either of them. I assume that means they can't be fermented? According to the source I found the honey is pure, so it should ferment alright. Would there be any value in trying something interesting like a bochet with honey-bear-style "flower" honey, or should I just JAOM it? At 3-3.5kg, I'd probably split it between a couple gallon jugs and forget about it until the spring like I did last time?

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Depending on the yeast strain, I think I'd go with 1.4 kilos osmanthus honey & water to 3.8 liters; it works out to 3 lbs honey & water to 1 US gallon. Adjust volumes/weights as required for you fermentation vessel. I try to match the yeast strain to the desired FG. If I want a 14% ABV mead, I determine how much honey to make the required OG, match a yeast that peters out at 14% & go from there. Making sure to use yeast nutrient/energizer for a good, healthy fermentation will help the yeast to do their job. As for a particular strain to use, I think I'd go with Montrachet, 71-B or QA23.

As for adding flowers, I'd say you'll get better result by adding to secondary or tertiary; this will help to retain most of the delicate aromatics. Use those campden tabs to sanitize the must, NOT to "kill" the yeast. You'll want to use them when you add the flowers to kill any nasties that might be hitching a ride on them. I use campden tabs to sanitize the must prior to yeast pitch. Even though the equipment is sanitized, the water is not, so it's a good idea to use campden then. Just wait 12hrs & be sure to aerate well, then pitch your yeast. This is SOP for me.

As for your bochet idea, sounds good to me. I always steer clear of sorbate. I don't add it & I don't bother with anything that contains it (as far as fermentation goes) and I try to avoid it in prepared foods too. I'd just save that marmalade for toast.
Regards, GF.

Alright, bear with me here. I'll be using 4.5 liter spring water jugs as fermenters, I'll probably buy four of them, use one for Osmanthus mead, two for cheap honey bochet, and one as my racking vessel (I'll rack to it, clean and sanitize the just-emptied jug, and repeat with the next batch). I could look into glass containers as an alternative, but I'd prefer not to buy a bunch of extra glass if it's not necessary - the wife wouldn't be too happy...

Osmanthus Mead:

-1.66 kg Osmanthus honey, filled up to 4.5L with spring water and shaken to kingdom come for a while.
-Rehydrate 71b and pitch.
-Next morning (roughly 12 hours), give a vigorous stirring and add 1/4 tsp each of DAP and Yeast Energizer.
-Stir or swirl vigorously once or twice a day for the next few days.
-Do nutrient additions around day 3 and day 7 (approximating 1/3 and 2/3 sugar break, or should I be floating my hydro in this stuff daily to find those sugar breaks?).
-After ~14 days (reading gravity to see if it's finished), rack to secondary and add 1g each of yellow and red osmanthus flowers (each color has different flavors/aromas) and a crushed campden tablet (right?).
-Rack again as necessary (is multiple racking purely for clarity?), adding flowers if desired.
-Bottle when I'm satisfied with clarity and let it age for as long as necessary.

Am I on the right track here? I'm probably missing some important stuff, any advice?

Bochet (recipe in progress)

-Add honey (weight still uncertain, probably around 3.2-3.5kg) to brew kettle and slowly boil until it's got a nice mahogany color (or should I go even darker?).
-Add cold spring water (carefully) to cool and dissolve hot honey, split between two 4.5 liter jugs and top off with cold spring water.
-Rehydrate yeast and pitch (maybe using 71b in one and Montrachet in the other for experimentation purposes?).
-From this point, follow roughly the same schedule/methodology as the osmanthus mead.

Or should I go a bit more primitive with the Bochet? Am I right in understanding that a few all-natural raisins will do the same job as the nutrients? Is there a better yeast to use for a bochet? Any other spices or additions that would go well in a bochet? Star anise? Cassia or cinnamon bark? Cloves? Cardamom? Orange peel? Sichuan Peppercorns? Figs? Dates? I could go full-on experimental and use different spices in each batch (or leave one batch unspiced for potential blending), but since I've never had a bochet some guidance would be good before I started. I guess another alternative would be to split these into one-liter secondaries and try different spices in each one, but that's borderline mad scientist behavior...

FatDragon said:

Or should I go a bit more primitive with the Bochet? Am I right in understanding that a few all-natural raisins will do the same job as the nutrients? Is there a better yeast to use for a bochet? Any other spices or additions that would go well in a bochet? Star anise? Cassia or cinnamon bark? Cloves? Cardamom? Orange peel? Sichuan Peppercorns? Figs? Dates? I could go full-on experimental and use different spices in each batch (or leave one batch unspiced for potential blending), but since I've never had a bochet some guidance would be good before I started. I guess another alternative would be to split these into one-liter secondaries and try different spices in each one, but that's borderline mad scientist behavior...

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Whoa there! Lots o'questions. Mashed up raisins or dates will work as nutrients. I like Red Star Montchalet and have gotten good results from it. If what you have works, don't sweat it. Hell, JOAM uses bread yeast and it works. Any of the herb and spices you mentioned will work in a bouchet or Methelgin. I like what you're doing and you're off to a great start, but keep it simple. You know the expression: too many cooks spoil the broth? Same applies here. One or two ingredients is really all it takes. Cinnamon and Orange peel, cloves and anise. Pineapple and ginger. You get the idea.
You're just starting off on this brewing expedition (Aren't we all?) Make a batch with one or two items. When it comes time to sample your creation, think to yourself: 'This is good, but what it really needs is...' Add whatever that is to your next batch. Never forget: this is where art and science meet. It will be good and it will be open to interpretation. It can also be subject to change and refining.

I wonder if those "expired" honey packets are a blend of honey and high fructose corn syrup (or other sweeteners). As you say, honey shouldn't really expire in its natural state.

I like your choice of 71b for the osmamthus. That's my go to yeast for most of my meads.

I'd give it more than ~14 days before you add the flowers though. I'd add those roughly 2-3 weeks before you bottle. I'd hate to lose any of the presumed delicate nature of those flowers by adding so early in the process.

You could consider using a crock pot to "cook" your honey for the bochet. I haven't done that, but know people that have. I'd also consider d47 yeast. But that's just because I personally despise Montrachet (almost as much as EC-1118).

Good luck!

Deafmeadmaker said:

Whoa there! Lots o'questions. Mashed up raisins or dates will work as nutrients. I like Red Star Montchalet and have gotten good results from it. If what you have works, don't sweat it. Hell, JOAM uses bread yeast and it works. Any of the herb and spices you mentioned will work in a bouchet or Methelgin. I like what you're doing and you're off to a great start, but keep it simple. You know the expression: too many cooks spoil the broth? Same applies here. One or two ingredients is really all it takes. Cinnamon and Orange peel, cloves and anise. Pineapple and ginger. You get the idea.
You're just starting off on this brewing expedition (Aren't we all?) Make a batch with one or two items. When it comes time to sample your creation, think to yourself: 'This is good, but what it really needs is...' Add whatever that is to your next batch. Never forget: this is where art and science meet. It will be good and it will be open to interpretation. It can also be subject to change and refining.

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Yeah, I tend to ask a lot of questions and get out of control when considering adjuncts. I wouldn't plan on using so many different spices, but I like to list off everything that comes to mind as a possibility in case something really strikes a respondent as a good idea. Since I'm more of a beer guy than a mazer, I'm not sure if I'm planning on tweaking and repeating - these will probably be one-offs unless I'm really blown away. I'll probably make the bochet unspiced and if I feel like it needs something down the line, I can try spicing a few little jars and see what's good.

AZ_IPA said:

I wonder if those "expired" honey packets are a blend of honey and high fructose corn syrup (or other sweeteners). As you say, honey shouldn't really expire in its natural state.

I like your choice of 71b for the osmamthus. That's my go to yeast for most of my meads.

I'd give it more than ~14 days before you add the flowers though. I'd add those roughly 2-3 weeks before you bottle. I'd hate to lose any of the presumed delicate nature of those flowers by adding so early in the process.

You could consider using a crock pot to "cook" your honey for the bochet. I haven't done that, but know people that have. I'd also consider d47 yeast. But that's just because I personally despise Montrachet (almost as much as EC-1118).

Good luck!

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The expired honey is pure honey - it took some digging, but I found the nutrition information and ingredients list online - the expiration date is surely due to government regulations.

What do you think about using 71b for both meads? I don't know what company makes d47, but I can't seem to find it domestically. Lalvin and Red Star stuff is here to be had, but unless I wanted to take a risk on a domestically-produced Angel wine yeast (though to be fair, their rice leaven for rice wine is excellent), I'll be using something from one of those companies.

My thinking for adding the flowers fairly early in the osmanthus mead is that it gives me the flexibility to add more to taste as the mead ages. I might change the schedule to start around 2-3 weeks before I plan to bottle like you suggest and then just put off bottling if I decide I need another round of flowers.

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Thanks to everyone who's helped out so far - keep it coming if there's anything else I should know!

I went ahead and got everything started the night before last.

I had 2.15 kg of osmanthus honey and 3.5 kg of "flower" honey. I bought four 4L jugs of spring water with the intention of doing one jug of osmanthus mead, two of bochet, and having a fourth jug for racking purposes. I bought one packet of Lallemand 71b (D47 not being available in China, as far as I could find).

Tuesday night I tossed the 3.5 kg of "flower" honey into our new stainless 11 qt. heavy-bottomed Ikea pot and started the heat. As it got to a boil, I was suprised by just how liquid the honey became (for some reason I expected it to remain viscous) and more so by the sock-in-the-mouth aroma of pollen. I see why outdoor bochet makers are so worried about bees - the smell is so strong a single whiff sticks in your nose for several minutes and even with heavy use of the ventilation fan over the stove our kitchen smelled like pollen 24 hours after cooking the honey.

While that was all cooking, I filled my 1.7 L electric kettle with spring water from one of the jugs and then measured 1.5 kg of osmanthus honey into said jug, along with a quarter teaspoon each of yeast energizer and nutrient, topped it off about halfway up the shoulder and shook the everloving crap out of it.

The honey cooked for about an hour and a half with the occasional stir or temperature adjustment if it threatened to boil over - 11 qt was just big enough for 3.5 kg of honey, I think, as it never went beyond the point of threatening. At that point a drop of honey on a white plate was a rich mahogany color and I figured it was ready. I slowly and carefully poured the (still very hot) boiled spring water into the pot - it bubbled and spit but not nearly like using cold water to cool boiling sugar - and then filled up to about the 9 liter mark with cold spring water (why 9L? more in a moment).

At that point, the honey was still very hot so I decided to put the pot in my 'big shallow tub of water with an aquarium heater (set to 22C)' temp control to cool overnight. I had decided that 3.5 kg of honey was going to be too much for 8L of bochet, so I made the last-minute decision to make a hybrid with 2L spring water, the last 630 g of osmanthus honey, and the last ~1.25 L of bochet must. The osmanthus and spring water got shaken to hell with a nutrient dose, and then everything sat overnight while I slept and the bochet must cooled.

I got up at 6 AM yesterday morning (after waking up an hour earlier becasue I had set my internal clock to wake up earlier than usual - apparently I also sleepwalked since my wife woke up in the middle of the night and I wasn't in bed - probably went into the beer room subconsciously checking on the mead), grabbed my sanitized funnel out of the bucket of peracetic acid solution, and proceeded to fill the two bochet jugs and top off the hybrid. The yeast went with some boiled spring water mixed with cool spring water to ~40C to rehydrate while the bochets got their nutrients and had the hell shaken out of them and I Leatherman Micra'd the lids of the jugs for sanitized grommets and airlocks, and then I stirred up the yeast slurry one more time and poured roughly a quarter in each jug, put them in the temp control water bath, and got their lids and airlocks fitted.

Got home after work yesterday to amazing smells in the beer room (though I think that's from the IPA that's putting a bubble every 1-2 seconds through its blowoff tube) and little puberty-mustache kraeusens on all four mead jugs. Success!

So what now? Should I be stirring them regularly (and what's the purpose - am I trying to add oxygen so they would need some vigorous stirring for a couple minutes or just keep the yeast in suspension so a couple swirls would be alright) or tossing a sanitized hydrometer in them daily to check for sugar breaks so I know when to ad more nutrients? Should I just do what I do with beer and forget them for a few weeks? Should I be covering them up to protect them from light? I feel like we're off to a good start, so what do I need to know to ensure a good middle and end?