GFCI Panel Help

So it's going to be hard to tell wtf is going on here since a tangle of wires, but let's see.



Alright, so left side is power in. I have the two hots running to the large lug nuts on the side of the breaker. Neutral and grounds running to their bars.

Then I have the two hots and neutral coming off of the breaker to the correct spots on the outlet. Ground from bus -> outlet.

I don't really see what I could be doing wrong but it's not working. Any suggestions? How would I tell if the breaker is bad?

are those #12 awg conductors on the load side of the breaker? do you have a model number for the spa panel?

Never mind, ignore this.

itsnotrequired said:

are those #12 awg conductors on the load side of the breaker? do you have a model number for the spa panel?

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http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-BR-Type-Spa-Panel-BR50SPA/100206043

All wires are 10 gauge, just the power-in are a thicker insulation.

NoahBeach said:

Neutral from power feed needs to go to breaker, then breaker neutral (curly) goes to neutral bus, then a neutral from bus to outlet.

Hope this helps!

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While that might function, I don't believe that's quite correct. The breaker should not monitor current through the entire neutral bus bar, only the circuit neutral protected by the breaker.

Power IN Neutral to the neutral bus bar.
Breaker neutral pigtail to neutral bus bar.
Power Out (Load) neutral connects to neutral clamp connection on breaker.

It appears this is how you have it connected but I'm not sure from the photo.

Is it tripping with nothing connected to the load or only when a load is connected?

Have you checked voltages across hots and hots and neutral?

raouliii said:

While that might function, I don't believe that's quite correct. The breaker should not monitor current through the entire neutral bus bar, only the circuit neutral protected by the breaker.

Power IN Neutral to the neutral bus bar.
Breaker neutral pigtail to neutral bus bar.
Power Out (Load) neutral connects to neutral clamp connection on breaker.

It appears this is how you have it connected but I'm not sure from the photo.

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Yeah I realized right after submitting I was wrong.

raouliii said:

While that might function, I don't believe that's quite correct. The breaker should not monitor current through the entire neutral bus bar, only the circuit neutral protected by the breaker.

Power IN Neutral to the neutral bus bar.
Breaker neutral pigtail to neutral bus bar.
Power Out (Load) neutral connects to neutral clamp connection on breaker.

It appears this is how you have it connected but I'm not sure from the photo.

Is it tripping with nothing connected to the load or only when a load is connected?

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Oh right, I should have specified that -- not tripping, just no providing power to the outlet from it seems. I'm testing with my dryer and it wont turn on.

iijakii said:

Oh right, I should have specified that -- not tripping, just no providing power to the outlet from it seems. I'm testing with my dryer and it wont turn on.

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I assume you know that the breaker is in the OFF position, at least in the photo.

I would suggest a few voltage readings.

raouliii said:

I assume you know that the breaker is in the OFF positions.

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Nailed it! WTF iijakii, stretch those wires out. Give a guy something to work with. What a mess

Hah, I tried flipping it a few times! I'll have to bust out my multimeter. Don't tell anyone but I really have no idea what I'm doing with it most of the time

iijakii said:

Hah, I tried flipping it a few times! I'll have to bust out my multimeter. Don't tell anyone but I really have no idea what I'm doing with it most of the time

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Set it for AC Voltage. Should read about 240 between hots, 120 between each hot and neutral, 120 between each hot and ground, and 0 between neutral and ground. Check input feed at the lugs, at the outputs of the breaker, and at the receptacle.

raouliii said:

I assume you know that the breaker is in the OFF positions.

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lschiavo said:

Nailed it! ....

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Sometimes the simplest question still has to be asked. :smack:

my god, if this is a circuit breaker in the off position issue...

It will be a palm/face solution. I have been wiring a long time and I can't help by that photo. It hurts my brain.

lschiavo said:

It will be a palm/face solution. I have been wiring a long time and I can't help by that photo. It hurts my brain.

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wiring looks good, assuming correct at the breaker itself

raouliii said:

Set it for AC Voltage. Should read about 240 between hots, 120 between each hot and neutral, 120 between each hot and ground, and 0 between neutral and ground. Check input feed at the lugs, at the outputs of the breaker, and at the receptacle.

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Thanks for the lesson!

So everything reads fine at the lugs, but I'm getting nothing on the out-terminals. I guess the breaker is bad?

Edit: and no, it's not from the breaker being set to off, lol!

And yes, wiring in this is terrible, I know. Putting the outlet on the top (already had the conduit hole for power-in) really mucked the flow up.

iijakii said:

Thanks for the lesson!

So everything reads fine at the lugs, but I'm getting nothing on the out-terminals. I guess the breaker is bad?

Edit: and no, it's not from the breaker being set to off, lol!

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If that's the case, and if the breaker is holding in the ON position without tripping, then I would guess a bad breaker.

Does anything happen when pressing the TEST button on the breaker while in the ON position?

lschiavo said:

It will be a palm/face solution. I have been wiring a long time and I can't help by that photo. It hurts my brain.

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Oddly enough, I can follow each conductor if I concentrate real hard.

itsnotrequired said:

wiring looks good, assuming correct at the breaker itself

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I cant tell where most of those wires are terminating. You must have better eyes.

raouliii said:

Oddly enough, I can follow each conductor if I concentrate real hard.

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Really? I am lost at the power in. If I cant follow that, I quit.

photo is...not good but they can be followed

Images courtesy PJ

raouliii said:

If that's the case, and if the breaker is holding in the ON position without tripping, then I would guess a bad breaker.

Does anything happen when pressing the TEST button on the breaker while in the ON position?

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Test does nothing.

Is that neutral bus bar grounded to the frame? Can't tell by pic but of course shouldn't be.

-BD

Alright, tried to move some wires and get cleaner pics:





One thing I noticed is when running my multimeter on one power-in and one load I get 120v instead of 240v. Any idea what that's aboot?

BrunDog said:

Is that neutral bus bar grounded to the frame? Can't tell by pic but of course shouldn't be.

-BD

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Nope, it's good.

Your line in neutral has to go to the breaker. The load side is a seperate neutral FROM the breaker so it can monitor for faults. They cannot be tied together on the same bar.

Your line-in neutral should be connected (wirenutted) to the pigtail on the breaker and the neutral bar (load neutral) should be tied to the neutral terminal on the breaker.

With breaker on, check the voltage across the line side to the load side of the breaker. Pretty rare a new breaker is bad, but can happen. Maybe a neutral is rubbed raw and touching the panel. What type and size breaker is feeding that panel? Multiple gfci' son the same circuit can cause nuisance tripping. #10 is only rated for 30 amps, hopefully the breaker feeding the panel is 30 amps or less.

lschiavo said:

Your line in neutral has to go to the breaker. The load side is a seperate neutral from the breaker so it can monitor for faults.

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How do I do that? I couldn't figure out how to remove that pig-tail so I just ran it and the power-in to the bus.

lschiavo said:

Your line in neutral has to go to the breaker. The load side is a seperate neutral FROM the breaker so it can monitor for faults. They cannot be tied together on the same bar. Your line-in neutral should be connected (wirenutted) to the pigtail on the breaker and the neutral bar (load neutral) should be tied to the neutral terminal on the breaker.

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Good catch. That is it. I missed it through the wiring, but see it now that you mention it.

Explained better by Ischiavo.

iijakii said:

How do I do that? I couldn't figure out how to remove that pig-tail so I just ran it and the power-in to the bus.

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Tie the pigtail from the breaker to the incoming neutral only. Tie the outgoing neutrals to the neutral terminal on the breaker.

The line comes in on the pigtail. The load goes out on the terminal. Getting confusing...

Alright, tried Mxstar's version pre-edit and it didnt work :cross:

Don't have any 10ga nuts and I dont feel like soldering them so I'll have to try it again tomorrow. Thanks for the help everyone, hopefully it's an easy fix tomorrow. Who would have thought that posting a clearer picture would help find the solution? Magic.

lschiavo said:

Tie the pigtail from the breaker to the incoming neutral only. Tie the outgoing neutrals to the neutral terminal on the breaker.

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Although, isn't this what I had done originally? The power in and pigtail went to the bus, the load neutral went to the outlet. Is there something special about these that require direct routing and the bus wont work?

It's hard to to tell, but I think you have 1 too many neutrals on the breaker. The pigtail built into the breaker should run to the neutral bus, the incoming neutral should run to the neutral bus, and the neutral on the outlet should run to the neutral bus not the breaker. Is the gfci tripping? Gfci' work by sensing an imbalance in current flow. Hard to say, but I think if you remove the neutral wire attached to the breaker/outlet and attach outlet/neutral bus it will work.

I'm not getting power at the outlet, not tripping issues.

Sorry, I am not very clear tonight, just switched to night shift. I am out of it, and having hard time explaining things. I think this picture should help explain what we are trying to say.

iijakii said:

I'm not getting power at the outlet, not tripping issues.

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That is probably gfci neutral issue then.