force carb or natural carb

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Nickyssix

Nickyssix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
72
Reaction score
12
Location
New Brighton
What are peoples thoughts on this ? Preferences ? A friend constantly tries to get me to force carb says its great.. I'm stuck in my old ways priming my beer. It intrigues me that its german law to carbonate naturally and I'm happy with my procedure. Should I try a switch ?
 
Natural carb is cheaper. Force carb (can be) faster. I always natural carb, cause I'm too skurred to waste my precious gas when sugar is so cheap. I'm sure I'll force carb at some point when I'm in a pinch for beer and I've got a full backup co2 tank. The idea of grain to glass in 10 days is tempting..
 
Last edited:
Taste beers using both methods - depending on the style, they can taste quite different. I force carb beers that I want a fresh, sharp taste to (especially hoppy American beers) and naturally carb if I want a smooth balanced taste.
 
I can't imagine force curbing being more expensive.
Personally, I think force curbing is one of my biggest beer improves under temp controlled fermenting
 
Nickyssix said:
What are peoples thoughts on this ? Preferences ? A friend constantly tries to get me to force carb says its great.. I'm stuck in my old ways priming my beer. It intrigues me that its german law to carbonate naturally and I'm happy with my procedure. Should I try a switch ?
Click to expand...

You keg your beer obviously. Otherwise your limited to bottle conditioning to carbonate.

Some german breweries do force carbonate using the CO2 captured during fermentation.

I think the German purity law is more of a guideline breweries have to follow if they want the mark on the beer. "brewed in accordance with the German purity law of 1516"

The Rheinheitsgebot

It's not as restrictive as the original anymore as yeast is allowed :)as are various stabilizing agents and as I've just discovered certain sugars (for top fermenting beers like Altbier and Kolsch).

The revised Vorläufiges Biergesetz (Provisional Beer Law) of 1993, which replaced the earlier regulations, is a slightly expanded version of the Reinheitsgebot, stipulating that only water, malted barley, hops and yeast be used for any bottom-fermented beer brewed in Germany. In addition, the law allows the use of powdered or ground hops and hops extracts, as well as stabilization and fining agents such as PVPP. Top fermented beer is subject to the same rules with the addition that a wider variety of malt can be used as well as pure sugars for flavor and coloring.

i say if your happy with your current process why change. A planned better can often be the enemy of good. I keg all my beers so force carb.
 
Last edited:
by "natural carb" do you mean carbonating a keg w/ sugar like you do when bottling? assuming you're talking about kegging here...if so, if you naturally carb w/ sugar, is there enough residual pressure in the keg to dispense 5 gallons of beer?

i keg and BOTH force carb (crank and shake method--25 psi and shake the keg for 90-120 seconds, degas, dial pressure down to 10 psi, re-pressurize and drink) and i also just hook the gas up and let the beer carbonate over the next 10-14 days under "normal" (8-10 psi) pressure on my system. depends on the beer and timeline to serve. there may be some debate on this, but both methods serve their own purpose and both work (in my world at least!). the longer the beer is able to carbonate though, the better it tastes (to a point...obviously).
 
pablosbrewing said:
Assuming carbonation on average = 2.4 vol

At $20 for a 5lb CO2 refill/exchange it will cost you about $0.73 to force carb - so it depends on the cost of priming sugar and what you pay for CO2.
Click to expand...

Sugar costs me $1 per kg. When I naturally carb in keg I use less than 100g, so less than $0.10.

I think most brewers would be happy to pay the extra $0.63 per keg if it gives them better beer. The cost is quite negligible.
 
Gavin C said:
You keg your beer obviously.
Click to expand...

No I bottle at the moment.. but have considered getting the full kegerator set up. Great info on the purity law btw very interesting. I lived in Berlin for a while and have a great love for german beer. (Amongst other beers hehe)
I am very happy with the taste of my beer but love investigating options.
 
Gnomebrewer said:
Taste beers using both methods - depending on the style, they can taste quite different. I force carb beers that I want a fresh, sharp taste to (especially hoppy American beers) and naturally carb if I want a smooth balanced taste.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Also my force carbing friend and I recently brewed the same recipe. He used a grain father and forced carbing.. I used traditional all grain method and natural carb. We both got similar efficiency. We are going to compare the 2. Should be interesting.
 
Nickyssix said:
What are peoples thoughts on this ? Preferences ? A friend constantly tries to get me to force carb says its great.. I'm stuck in my old ways priming my beer. It intrigues me that its german law to carbonate naturally and I'm happy with my procedure. Should I try a switch ?
Click to expand...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

;)
 
drgoodbrew said:
by "natural carb" do you mean carbonating a keg w/ sugar like you do when bottling? assuming you're talking about kegging here...if so, if you naturally carb w/ sugar, is there enough residual pressure in the keg to dispense 5 gallons of beer?

i keg and BOTH force carb (crank and shake method--25 psi and shake the keg for 90-120 seconds, degas, dial pressure down to 10 psi, re-pressurize and drink) and i also just hook the gas up and let the beer carbonate over the next 10-14 days under "normal" (8-10 psi) pressure on my system. depends on the beer and timeline to serve. there may be some debate on this, but both methods serve their own purpose and both work (in my world at least!). the longer the beer is able to carbonate though, the better it tastes (to a point...obviously).
Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks for your reply. I am still bottling but would consider buying a keg and co2 set up. The wife wants a bar in the garage with 'proper taps'. Shes a definate keeper :)
 
Nickyssix said:
No I bottle at the moment.. but have considered getting the full kegerator set up. Great info on the purity law btw very interesting. I lived in Berlin for a while and have a great love for german beer. (Amongst other beers hehe)
I am very happy with the taste of my beer but love investigating options.
Click to expand...

Sorry if that came across wrong. What I meant was that if you are in the process of debating one method over the other I assumed you were carbonating your kegged beer with priming sugar solution and not force carbonating it.

Nothing wrong with that IMO and I didn't intend to infer one method of packaging and carbonating beer to be superior than another. Pros and cons to each. We all have our preferences.

I'm a big fan of German beers too. The Rheinheitsgebot is a bizarre historical oddity really that the Germans have held onto over the centuries. Can't say I can blame them given their beer heritage. I love Germanic style beers. Got a Munich Helles, an Altbier and a Vienna lager on tap at the moment, and a Munich Dunkel fermenting away as I type. Never get tired of drinking them.:drunk:

FWIW I really enjoy having the facility to keg my beers. My guess is, if you do make the switch you won't regret it. The Germans will never know. sssshhh.:D
 
Gavin C said:
Sorry if that came across wrong. What I meant was that if you are in the process of debating one method over the other I assumed you were carbonating your kegged beer with priming sugar solution and not force carbonating it.

Nothing wrong with that IMO and I didn't intend to infer one method of packaging and carbonating beer to be superior than another. Pros and cons to each. We all have our preferences.

I'm a big fan of German beers too. The Rheinheitsgebot is a bizarre historical oddity really that the Germans have held onto over the centuries. Can't say I can blame them given their beer heritage. I love Germanic style beers. Got a Munich Helles, an Altbier and a Vienna lager on tap at the moment, and a Munich Dunkel fermenting away as I type. Never get tired of drinking them.:drunk:
Click to expand...

You would enjoy the Augustiner brau (helles)- i lived on that beer for about a year (along with a bit of bread and cheese)
Yum i like the sound of your brewhouse at the moment !
Just looking at your Helles Recipe - what is acid malt? I wonder if it's called something different here in NZ?
Looks delicious . I have An Oktoberfest in the bottle - just as the Vienna was finished great timing!
Ive gone east in the fermenter with a Saaz hopped Czech pils..
 
Nickyssix said:
You would enjoy the Augustiner brau (helles)- i lived on that beer for about a year (along with a bit of bread and cheese)
Yum i like the sound of your brewhouse at the moment !
Just looking at your Helles Recipe - what is acid malt? I wonder if it's called something different here in NZ?
Looks delicious . I have An Oktoberfest in the bottle - just as the Vienna was finished great timing!
Ive gone east in the fermenter with a Saaz hopped Czech pils..
Click to expand...

Thanks man.

Acidulated malt aka acid malt aka sauermalz is usually 2 row malt or pilsner malt that has been sprayed with a lactic acid, coating its surface. (Probably a lot more to it than that). I use it to control mash pH in my beers where insufficient acids form crystal or roast malts are present.

Using 88% lactic acid is also effective.

Great timing on the Vienna, Marzen transition. Pils sounds good.
 
I have been told (and it makes sense from the chemistry/biology perspective) that carbing with sugar will let the yeast remove any residual dissolved oxygen that got into the beer while transfering.

As you are probably aware, oxygen is *bad* after fermentation has completed. This is supposed to be extra important with hop-forward beers (APA, IPA, etc), as oxygen not only causes the oxidized-beer flavor, but also reduces the shelf-stability of the hop flavors/aromas.
 
Both methods have their merits, but it comes down to how much work you're willing to put up with? Cleaning a bunch of bottles, or cleaning a bunch of keg parts, lines, taps, etc. Having a spare Co2 Cylinder to swap in when one empties. Cost of Co2 versus buying some sugar every now & then.
But bottling has it's downside as well. You have to keep a lot of bottles stashed to bottle up at least 3 or 4- 5 gallon batches, about 54-12oz bottles per batch. So that's 216- 12oz bottles to keep around for four five gallon batches. Versus 4 five gallon kegs for the same amount of beer. 3 in the kegerator & one in reserve. In my case, the kegerator would take the space my stack of empties does now. That'd also get rid of the stacks of bottled beers boxed up under the bottling table & the boxed spares under the table on the other side of the room where the HD screen will go. Basically would get rid of a lot of clutter. Another consideration...
 
Gnomebrewer said:
Taste beers using both methods - depending on the style, they can taste quite different. I force carb beers that I want a fresh, sharp taste to (especially hoppy American beers) and naturally carb if I want a smooth balanced taste.
Click to expand...

Do you think this has more to do with timeline and aging at room temp though? I do like to keg and force carb hoppy beers because as soon as they are packaged they can be chilled, and they are carbed up for drinking sooner. For other recipes I have not noticed a taste difference between a keg that has been naturally carbed vs. force carbed. I do let some beers - for example big stouts - sit at warmer temps for a while before chilling to carb and drink, but in my case it's the aging process itself that smooths it out not the natural carbing.
 
Nickyssix said:
This is interesting. Also my force carbing friend and I recently brewed the same recipe. He used a grain father and forced carbing.. I used traditional all grain method and natural carb. We both got similar efficiency. We are going to compare the 2. Should be interesting.
Click to expand...

Will be an interesting comparison, just realize there are more variables here than just natural vs. force carbing. The act of bottling itself could introduce differences, also brewing different systems. To really check the difference you'd want to brew one batch, one fermenter, both transferred to kegs with same process but one naturally carbed and one force carbed - this is what I have done on the past and where I could not tell any difference between the two.
 
For me it is how long I plan to have the beer around. I like bottling bigger beers/ones that need a little age. Then I'll keg ones that drink better young.
 
Gavin C said:
Thanks man.

Acidulated malt aka acid malt aka sauermalz is usually 2 row malt or pilsner malt that has been sprayed with a lactic acid, coating its surface. (Probably a lot more to it than that). I use it to control mash pH in my beers where insufficient acids form crystal or roast malts are present.

Using 88% lactic acid is also effective.

Great timing on the Vienna, Marzen transition. Pils sounds good.
Click to expand...

Thanks Gavin i'm going to look into it
 
unionrdr said:
Both methods have their merits, but it comes down to how much work you're willing to put up with? Cleaning a bunch of bottles, or cleaning a bunch of keg parts, lines, taps, etc. Having a spare Co2 Cylinder to swap in when one empties. Cost of Co2 versus buying some sugar every now & then.
But bottling has it's downside as well. You have to keep a lot of bottles stashed to bottle up at least 3 or 4- 5 gallon batches, about 54-12oz bottles per batch. So that's 216- 12oz bottles to keep around for four five gallon batches. Versus 4 five gallon kegs for the same amount of beer. 3 in the kegerator & one in reserve. In my case, the kegerator would take the space my stack of empties does now. That'd also get rid of the stacks of bottled beers boxed up under the bottling table & the boxed spares under the table on the other side of the room where the HD screen will go. Basically would get rid of a lot of clutter. Another consideration...
Click to expand...

Great points there - my kegged up friend is often limited when it comes to brewing, he often has to get me round to finish off kegs so he can move on. (I'm a good friend) .. but he has a tidy man cave.
But my garage is half full of 740ml brown bombers. At the moment i have i think 5 brews in the bottle either ready or conditioning - that would be a pricey jump to kegs.
 
From what I read, bottle carbonation produces a smoother carbonation. Kegging introduces carbonic acid which creates a harsher feeling.
 
Resonator said:
From what I read, bottle carbonation produces a smoother carbonation. Kegging introduces carbonic acid which creates a harsher feeling.
Click to expand...

Kegging introduces pure CO2 which gets absorbed by the beer. Natural carbing has a reaction where CO2 is produced by the sugars and then absorbed into the beer. If one methods makes carbonic acid then shouldn't they both?
 
Any method of carbonation will add carbonic acid. It's co2 dissolved in solution. Co2 is co2 is co2.
 
Iseneye said:
Kegging introduces pure CO2 which gets absorbed by the beer. Natural carbing has a reaction where CO2 is produced by the sugars and then absorbed into the beer. If one methods makes carbonic acid then shouldn't they both?
Click to expand...

StonesBally said:
Any method of carbonation will add carbonic acid. It's co2 dissolved in solution. Co2 is co2 is co2.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. If someone can explain the science behind this please explain or point me in the right direction.

CO2+H2O↔H2CO3↔ H++HCO3-

The molecule of CO2 is no different regardless of its source.
 
drgoodbrew said:
... i keg and BOTH force carb (crank and shake method--25 psi and shake the keg for 90-120 seconds, degas, dial pressure down to 10 psi, re-pressurize and drink) and i also just hook the gas up and let the beer carbonate over the next 10-14 days under "normal" (8-10 psi) pressure on my system.
Click to expand...

FYI - Using CO2 at the target carbing pressure to carbonate a beer is "force carbing". Using the crank and shake method as you describe is referred to as "burst carbing".

Just a terminology thing but thought I would pass it along...
 
noggins said:
Natural carb is cheaper. Force carb (can be) faster. I always natural carb, cause I'm too skurred to waste my precious gas when sugar is so cheap. I'm sure I'll force carb at some point when I'm in a pinch for beer and I've got a full backup co2 tank. The idea of grain to glass in 10 days is tempting..
Click to expand...

10 days? Chill the keg in the day, roll it on it's side with gas on 25 for 1 - 2 minutes depending on carb level preference. Next morning bleed gas and set at serving pressure. I'll never do any other way. You can fix an over-carbed beer in a couple days by just releasing the pressure every so often.
 
JDFlow said:
10 days? Chill the keg in the day, roll it on it's side with gas on 25 for 1 - 2 minutes depending on carb level preference. Next morning bleed gas and set at serving pressure. I'll never do any other way. You can fix an over-carbed beer in a couple days by just releasing the pressure every so often.
Click to expand...

Yeh I've seen that method plenty of times by kids on the youtubes, I've also seen enough posts by Yooper and others on here I respect enough to know it's probably not worth the couple of days it might save me. 10 days = TOO SOON! IT'S JUST A BABY! YOU CAN'T DRINK A BABY!!


Relax, don't whine, have a homebrew
 
Gavin C said:
:off:

Here's a bit more about it.

And two of my recipes to give you an idea on how much is used.

A Helles

An Alt

I use a higher percentage than brewers using thicker mashes. There are no concerns about taste as far as I can tell. The Braukaiser looked into this in more detail.
Click to expand...

Ok i like it - am going to ask at the LHBS and i'll try your recipe -
Only problem is we dont get German hallertau in New Zealand - Any ideas on what i could replace it with ? Crystal? Mt Hood?
 
Nickyssix said:
Ok i like it - am going to ask at the LHBS and i'll try your recipe -
Only problem is we dont get German hallertau in New Zealand - Any ideas on what i could replace it with ? Crystal? Mt Hood?
Click to expand...

On your previous question, a kiwi version of acid malt is Gladfield 'sour grapes'.

Wakatu is a NZ version of hallertau and is reportedly interchangeable with the German hallertau.
 
Nickyssix said:
Ok i like it - am going to ask at the LHBS and i'll try your recipe -
Only problem is we dont get German hallertau in New Zealand - Any ideas on what i could replace it with ? Crystal? Mt Hood?
Click to expand...

That gladfield malt sounds exactly the same. Just a domestic version which will make it a lot cheaper in New Brighton or Christchurch I reckon.

http://www.gladfieldmalt.co.nz/the-malt/

I think any noble hop would work as a substitute for the Hallertauer. German if you can get them but domestic varieties should work fine. At least I'd imagine they would.

Here's a useful page about subbing hops.

Let me know if you brew it.
 
Gnomebrewer said:
On your previous question, a kiwi version of acid malt is Gladfield 'sour grapes'.

Wakatu is a NZ version of hallertau and is reportedly interchangeable with the German hallertau.
Click to expand...

Brilliant thanks ! Gladfields are really good maltsters.
But no, Wakatu is the Hallertau strain but when grown here its nothing like it - bitterness around 7-8 -and doesnt have the noble thing going on at all. just doesn't do the job. I use Crystal hops to substitute german beers but we do get Saaz imported which is a Noble but ive always wanted hallertau mittelfrüh or hersbrucker.
We do have some amazing local hops (Riwaka, Motueka, Nelson Sauvin) so i shouldnt complain but...
 
JDFlow said:
10 days? Chill the keg in the day, roll it on it's side with gas on 25 for 1 - 2 minutes depending on carb level preference. Next morning bleed gas and set at serving pressure. I'll never do any other way. You can fix an over-carbed beer in a couple days by just releasing the pressure every so often.
Click to expand...

Im a little confused on the different ways to carb so can someone lay it out.
Say once you transfer the wort to keg,Do i want to chill it first and hit it with C02 then relieve pressure then fridge it?. how much in this case?leave it for 24-36hrs relieve pressure or just hit with 25psi, roll,leave gas left on or off then bleed?,then chill and set to serve temp?.
Maybe im making it way harder then it is!.
Thanks
 
andrewmaixner said:
I have been told (and it makes sense from the chemistry/biology perspective) that carbing with sugar will let the yeast remove any residual dissolved oxygen that got into the beer while transfering.

As you are probably aware, oxygen is *bad* after fermentation has completed. This is supposed to be extra important with hop-forward beers (APA, IPA, etc), as oxygen not only causes the oxidized-beer flavor, but also reduces the shelf-stability of the hop flavors/aromas.
Click to expand...

That isn't correct, because yeast will indeed uptake some oxygen if present during the carbonation- but you can't "erase" the affect of already bound oxygen by yeast activity. It might mitigate any damage from oxygen in the headspace of the bottle, but it won't 'erase' oxidation from being transferred before that.

Winemakers will use sulfites when transferring, since sulfite will bind to the wine so that oxygen can't. Of course, most home winemakers will rack several times over the course of the wine's life so it's extra important to prevent oxidation from the first racking.
 
andrewmaixner said:
I have been told (and it makes sense from the chemistry/biology perspective) that carbing with sugar will let the yeast remove any residual dissolved oxygen that got into the beer while transfering.

As you are probably aware, oxygen is *bad* after fermentation has completed. This is supposed to be extra important with hop-forward beers (APA, IPA, etc), as oxygen not only causes the oxidized-beer flavor, but also reduces the shelf-stability of the hop flavors/aromas.
Click to expand...

Yooper said:
That isn't correct, because yeast will indeed uptake some oxygen if present during the carbonation- but you can't "erase" the affect of already bound oxygen by yeast activity. It might mitigate any damage from oxygen in the headspace of the bottle, but it won't 'erase' oxidation from being transferred before that.
...
Click to expand...

I didn't think I implied anything about erasure or rolling-back of oxidation. In any case, yes, you definitely can't undo oxidation once it has happened. Technically, I guess, oxidation by DO is a process over time, and so some is almost inevitable, and yeast can't uptake O2 until it is dissolved, and it will dissolve from headspace after bottling unless purged.
 
I've used all methods of carbing and I can say that I don't prefer any one of them over the others in general.

I usually set and forget if I am not in a hurry to pour that beer.

I usually burst carb when I'm in a hurry.

I've primed with sugar in the keg when my kegerator doesn't have have room for that keg and I can let it sit at room temp and carb.

About the only differences between them is amount of stirred up gunk that makes the beer cloudy, and there are ways around that if you have kegging equipment and the time to do it. And personally I am not pro-Reinheitsgebot in this day and age. It was a political and financial law that was made to look like a purity law. I CAN, however, appreciate German brewing methods and their beer nonetheless.

Bottom line, "It's all good, baby!"
 

Similar threads

S
Force carbing mini kegs in series
Replies
11
Views
562
mac_1103
mac_1103
rivendaleoakwood
hello there..
Replies
5
Views
318
redrocker652002
R
T
Another "beer didnt carb" thread
Replies
16
Views
791
balrog
balrog
griffr311
Force Carbing frustration
Replies
21
Views
2K
OleBrewing
OleBrewing
RatBait
Canning Question
Replies
4
Views
575
OLBrews
OLBrews
Brewer's Friend 300

Latest posts

Back
Top