Force Carbing frustration

[griffr311]

Hey all- I’ve just recently gotten into beer brewing and decided to do a small extract lager for my first time. I did a five-gallon batch and since I had been gifted some kegging (corny) equipment from a friend, I decided to keg it instead of bottling and bottle conditioning.

Being a little impatient, I tried to force carb it from a method I saw by H4L where the keg is filled, pressurized to 25-30 PSI, and shaken (while the gas is still running) for three and a half minutes. I took it off the gas, did not purge it, and then put the keg in my fridge for an hour. I don’t have a fancy draft set up, just a faucet attached to my “out” post on the keg, and I chilled that in the fridge as well.

I put the keg on 10 PSI and released pressure until it got down, and it served nothing but foam. Let it sit for 24 hours with no gas, still foam. I tried to fix it by removing all the CO2 and keeping it overnight at 30 PSI, but now it is not only all foam but also has lost all of its flavor.

How screwed am I, and is there any way I can save this? If there’s bad news, I would prefer to hear it so I can learn from this for next time.

 

[khannon]

There are some methods out there to attach a gas line to the liquid out post, purge the keg and "bubble" gas through the beer post. While doing this, keep the prv open, You'll get some foaming, but it's a pretty quick way to get CO2 out of solution. Works best at warmer temps, but can be done cold as well.
Of course you may have to re-carb the beer afterwards.

 

[camonick]

How long is your beer line and what is the inside diameter of it?

 

[Bassman2003]

Kegging is better with patience! Yes, tell us about your serving line. If you want to pursue the hobby for many years to come, I would strongly suggest getting a flow control disconnect and use the 8mm EVA Barrier tubing with about 5-7 feet. This a bullet proof setup that will give you options for many different levels of carbonation as well as being oxygen safe. Morebeer has all of this stuff and it is not very expensive. Just do it right from the start.

As far as carbonation, set and forget is your friend as it is predictable. It takes more time but it is not volatile like cramming a bunch of CO2 in and hoping it will be at the right level. Remember, carbonation is a function of temperature and pressure. Your temperature is constant in the fridge but you set the pressure.

Serving is a function of having the carbonation at a known level (see above) then providing enough resistance so the beer flows but the CO2 does not come out of solution. Any imbalance, higher or lower will result in foam. It is tricky and takes some practice which is why it is better to start with the 'set and forget' method. Hook the keg up at 10 PSI and come back in a week. Then everything will be balanced when you pour.

 

[griffr311]

As I said, there is no beer line, but off your information, I’m sure that is a contributing factor.

From where the beer is at now, are there any steps I should take to neutralize it before setting and forgetting? Or just leave it as it is?

 

[Bassman2003]

Sorry, missed that. I was suggesting to get some beer line... Or use a tap that has a flow restrictor. A tap on the side of a keg is basically a 'seltzer bottle" often used in comedy skits. No restriction just shooting it out. You need to get the CO2 out of the beer first. The PRV is the easiest option but it only lets the gas area escape. So you pull it, let the gas out then wait for the new equilibrium to form when the CO2 comes out of the liquid into the headspace. Then repeat. It might take a while depending upon how much gas you put in and how cold your fridge is. The colder the temp the more CO2 that goes into solution.

 

[camonick]

I don’t have a fancy draft set up, just a faucet attached to my “out” post on the keg, and I chilled that in the fridge as well.

How long is your beer line and what is the inside diameter of it?

Didn’t pay attention and see that detail when I skimmed the original post.
@Bassman2003 is offering solid advice.

 

[griffr311]

Sorry, missed that. I was suggesting to get some beer line... Or use a tap that has a flow restrictor. A tap on the side of a keg is basically a 'seltzer bottle" often used in comedy skits. No restriction just shooting it out. You need to get the CO2 out of the beer first. The PRV is the easiest option but it only lets the gas area escape. So you pull it, let the gas out then wait for the new equilibrium to form when the CO2 comes out of the liquid into the headspace. Then repeat. It might take a while depending upon how much gas you put in and how cold your fridge is. The colder the temp the more CO2 that goes into solution.

That makes sense. Thank you. I’m assuming keeping it out of the fridge will be fine seeing as the CO2 will come out of solution quicker, and the keg is basically a sealed bottle. No oxygen or light?

 

[Bassman2003]

Depends on how much you need to get out. Yes, warming it up will release more gas out of solution but the beer might not like it. Hot cold cycles are not the best for finished beers. A way to check the pressure in the keg is to take the gas disconnect off, roll the pressure down to 5 or 10 psi on the regulator, press the button inside the disconnect to release the pressure in the line then close the valve on your regulator. Now hook the disconnect back on the keg and open the regulator valve. The gauge should now read the keg pressure as it will be greater than the setting for the CO2 tank (5-10 psi).

 

[Broken Crow]

Maybe this is a good place to post the popular carbonation chart. Look up your desired carbonation level and set it to the pressure indcated for the temperature you have it at, and leave it a while. The high-pressure and shaking can often lead to over-carbing, but without a balanced system and knowing the temperatures, you're flying in the dark and it takes some practice to get the hang of. Stick with with it!

 

[SFC Rudy]

Everybody's setup is different. What works for me will probably not work as well for you unless you have the exact same setup that I do. Same for everyone else on here.

Read this article and pick a carbonation method. 3 Ways to Carbonate Your Keg - Brew Your Own

Then read this article, do the math, and set up your system. Dialing In - Kegerator Tube Lengths

Homebrewing is a hobby of patience. Be patient and you will be rewarded. Rush things and, as you are experiencing, you'll have problems.

 

[TomSellers]

After having this problem at 10psi or less, I bought a Kegland flow restrictor for my corny keg. (Curiously the same problem does not seem to over-foam when I dispense direct out of the All Rounder when it has 10 PSI.) The flow restrictor does limit the flow rate, but the foam remains a problem no matter where I set the dial, but there is only about 16" of line on it. From what I read above, sounds like I should have 5 or 6' of line?

I've also wondered if removing the long dip tube in the keg and replacing it with a floating pick-up would help with this problem?

 

[Bassman2003]

It is all pretty complicated. I tried the plastic and the stainless steel Kegland flow restrictors and kept the stainless steel parts. The plastic ones were nothing but foam for me. Others' have not had this issue so they must have some variance in their manufacturing. When they are working properly, they are great. I can pour my hefeweizen at 20+ PSI with very slow output from the tap. This is with 11ft of EVA Barrier and the SS flow restrictor, but that is what realistically takes to pour higher volume beers. Overall, yes, I would recommend 5-6' of line even with a flow restrictor.

 

[mac_1103]

I like the Picnic Tap 2.1 and I'm not alone.

 

[Cayuga-Brewer]

I have had good success with this when I am in a hurry to carbonate.

 

[doug293cz]

Then read this article, do the math, and set up your system. Dialing In - Kegerator Tube Lengths

The table of line resistance in this article is wrong! 3/16" ID beer line only has a resistance of a little more than 1 psi/ft, not 2.7. If you use 2.7 psi/ft to calculate line length, you will end up with a line that is too short, and probably lots of foam. Fortunately, the calculator at the same link does not appear to use this incorrect line resistance value, and does give reasonable line length results.

Brew on

 

[Bassman2003]

I am a big fan of the EVA Barrier tubing as it really behaves well in terms of resistance. It is one of the best bang for the bucks in the homebrewing world.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

I like the Picnic Tap 2.1 and I'm not alone.

I can second this. I have 2 of these and I can pour kegged Belgians at 3+ volumes with minimal foam. Good temporary fix while you are rebalancing your system

 

[Bobby_M]

You have both a completely unknown level of carbonation as well as a no-back-pressure dispensing path. It's a recipe for disaster, if not at least a lot of frustration.

 

[BrocTree]

A spunding valve could be handy if the beer is overcarbed--you could set the spunding valve to the appropriate pressure (based on the carb chart and storage temperature) and let it sit for a few days until it re-equilibrates. Might be easier than pulling the prv continuously.

 

[JPA]

Hey all- I’ve just recently gotten into beer brewing and decided to do a small extract lager for my first time. I did a five-gallon batch and since I had been gifted some kegging (corny) equipment from a friend, I decided to keg it instead of bottling and bottle conditioning.

Being a little impatient, I tried to force carb it from a method I saw by H4L where the keg is filled, pressurized to 25-30 PSI, and shaken (while the gas is still running) for three and a half minutes. I took it off the gas, did not purge it, and then put the keg in my fridge for an hour. I don’t have a fancy draft set up, just a faucet attached to my “out” post on the keg, and I chilled that in the fridge as well.

I put the keg on 10 PSI and released pressure until it got down, and it served nothing but foam. Let it sit for 24 hours with no gas, still foam. I tried to fix it by removing all the CO2 and keeping it overnight at 30 PSI, but now it is not only all foam but also has lost all of its flavor.

How screwed am I, and is there any way I can save this? If there’s bad news, I would prefer to hear it so I can learn from this for next time.

In my fridge I use 10' of line. Temp at 38°. If you don't want to drill a hole in your fridge buy a shank and put it on a short piece of 2x6 or buy a party tap if drilling a hole will never happen. when I force carbed I would leave 30 or 40 psi on it for several days testing daily until it got to where I wanted it. I wouldn't bleed the CO2 completely off the beer . Relieve the pressure some then pour a beer. Keep doing that until the keg pressure doesn't excede 10psi

 

[OleBrewing]

straight off the keg would require some sort of restriction with high carbonation longer hose or adjustable flow as others have stated. I have used the adapter for faucets for pin lock kegs with a flow controlled faucet that seemed to work with ales the pour is very slow but does pour a nice beer.

dealing with over carbed beer, in the past i take it off gas, and vent it several days in a row then pour one see how it is. when all said and done the time it takes to get it back to the right levels should have set it and forget for a week.

generally when i keg a room temp beer i will blast it with 30-35psi to set the seals... in the fridge for not quite a day set at 30-35 since knowing the beer will take some time to get to 35degrees the absorption will be slower. then release the excess gas and set it to serving psi (only reason to release the gas is to see what my gauge reads when set to serving psi, and you will need to keep tabs on that until every thing equalizes).

and remember longer lines are your friend. it may pour slower but the standard six feet they sell with kits is not long enough in my experience. 10-15 works for me.