Gelatin - Crystal clear beer in 2 days, really?

So I have been cold crashing at 32-33 degrees for 1 day now. It took a day to get to 32 so I'm on day two of the cold crash process. I have never used gelatin and usually will cold crash for 7 days if I can stand to wait that long. My ales will usually be very clear after 7 days of cold crash but this is my first lager in many years. I was reading that gelatin can clear a beer in 48 hours, which means I could keg by Friday versus next Wednesday.

So, those that have used gelatin, can you really get crystal clear beer in two days?

Thanks,

David

Not always crystal clear, but gelatin usually does it's thing for me within a couple days.

Usually crash and a day or two later gelatin in the FV, day or two later keg. I don't like gelatin in the keg.

1/2 tsp in a 5.5 gallon batch

Clears fast. No sure how fast. I like the results I get though

I fermenting 15 gallon snake kegs that I converted over to use cornelius keg lids with gas/liquid posts. I ferment, cold crash in the keg. I then drop gelatin in and let it sit. I'll get crystal clear results as fast as 24 hours even. Then I blow trub out until the line runs clear (few oz) then I force transfer to a clean keg. The results are always a keg filled with beer that looks filtered.

Silentdrinker said:

I fermenting 15 gallon snake kegs that I converted over to use cornelius keg lids with gas/liquid posts. I ferment, cold crash in the keg. I then drop gelatin in and let it sit. I'll get crystal clear results as fast as 24 hours even. Then I blow trub out until the line runs clear (few oz) then I force transfer to a clean keg. The results are always a keg filled with beer that looks filtered.

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You're not supposed to use lime Jello.

Silentdrinker said:

I fermenting 15 gallon snake kegs that I converted over to use cornelius keg lids with gas/liquid posts. I ferment, cold crash in the keg. I then drop gelatin in and let it sit. I'll get crystal clear results as fast as 24 hours even. Then I blow trub out until the line runs clear (few oz) then I force transfer to a clean keg. The results are always a keg filled with beer that looks filtered.

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Just in case you haven't noticed your beer has turned green

Do you all stir it up or just dump it in?

St. Patrick's day. The lady dropped green food coloring in it. The glass is covered in condensation, but you could read house addresses from across the street through the glass.

I fill a cup with water, drop the gelatin in and let it sit 20min to bloom. I then nuke it until it's 160f. Once that's done, I dump and seal. No need to stir.

Silentdrinker said:

St. Patrick's day. The lady dropped green food coloring in it. The glass is covered in condensation, but you could read house addresses from across the street through the glass.

I fill a cup with water, drop the gelatin in and let it sit 20min to bloom. I then nuke it until it's 160f. Once that's done, I dump and seal. No need to stir.

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Thanks, any idea why stirring is not necessary? I have read that its not necessary in many places but really curious why.. If I add gelatin to wine the directions say to stir it up.

Silentdrinker said:

St. Patrick's day. The lady dropped green food coloring in it. The glass is covered in condensation, but you could read house addresses from across the street through the glass.

I fill a cup with water, drop the gelatin in and let it sit 20min to bloom. I then nuke it until it's 160f. Once that's done, I dump and seal. No need to stir.

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This is exactly how I do it.

Normally gives crystal clear beer, but every now and then one doesn't clear quite as much as I'd like.

djonesax said:

Thanks, any idea why stirring is not necessary? I have read that its not necessary in many places but really curious why.. If I add gelatin to wine the directions say to stir it up.

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I believe the thought is that since you are adding the gelatin solution at around 150 degrees, the warm solution sits on top of the liquid surface and spreads out, then once it cools it sinks downwards.

i put it in the keg, i usually cold crash for 2-3 days, add the gelatin and hook the gas-up, shake like a motherf**ker and let it carb up over the next few days. ever had an issue with "gelatin Beer" in my glass. Just have to use the right Ratio is all.

I just did it, we'll see how it works.

wardens355 said:

I believe the thought is that since you are adding the gelatin solution at around 150 degrees, the warm solution sits on top of the liquid surface and spreads out, then once it cools it sinks downwards.

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This... Thanks. That was my assumption, thanks for "clarifying".

wardens355 said:

I believe the thought is that since you are adding the gelatin solution at around 150 degrees, the warm solution sits on top of the liquid surface and spreads out, then once it cools it sinks downwards.

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I don't think that's possible. The temperatures don't stratify like that. Once the hot gelatin solution is added it cools and the beer warms (tiny amount) almost immediately.

you don't get a hot gelatin layer on the top in the same way if you were to add 100ml of hot water to 5 gallons of cold water you will just have slighly less cold water.

Add milk to hot coffee or tea and things mix pretty rapidly even without stirring.

Maybe you're right I just don't see how it could work that way. But it does work

An excerpt;


"The secret behind gelatins function is in its chemistry. Gelatin is produced from collagen, a protein found in the bones & skin of animals. Most gelatin comes form pigs and cows, but one form found in commercial brewing (isinglass) comes from the swim bladders of fish.

Collagen's main biological function is to provide strength to tissues - it is what makes your skin elastic. The need for this protein to be both strong and elastic requires some unique chemistry. This unique chemistry helps 3 collagen molecules come together to form helical bundles (left). It is these bundles that provide collagen with both rigidity and flexibility. Not clear in this image are the "sticky ends" which allow these bundles to assemble into long chains - that's OK, since the sticky ends have little to do with brewing.

Its the long helical part of collagen that is important for gelatin. These helical sections are generally comprised of repeats of a few amino acids - specifically, -[glycine-proline-x]-, where x is an amino acid other than glycine/proline. This motif is repeated over 100 times in each helical portion of a collagen strand. Gelatin is produced by hydrolyzing (breaking) the collagen into shorter pieces - so instead of having this Gly-Pro-X repeated hundreds of times, you instead end up with small pieces in which it is repeated 2 to 5 times.

It is this breaking that is important - in collagen this triplet structure is key to forming the 3-protein helix: glycines and prolines are hydrophobic - meaning they don't like water, while the 'X's tend to be either polar or charged residues - meaning they like water. In collagen the water-hating parts of one collagen molecule binds to the water-hating bits of two other molecules, causing the collagen to wrap around the water-hating parts, thus producing a helix which has all of the water-hating bits in the middle and the water-loving parts on the outside (where they are exposed to the water-filled environment of our bodies).

Breaking the collagen into short bits prevents this from happening. When we bloom and heat the gelatin we solubilize the gelatin, meaning that we end up with single gelatin fragments (or small clusters) stably suspended in water. Heat too much and the molecules will condense forming jello. Heat too little and you don't solubilize the protein. But warming to just the right point will solubilize this normally poorly soluble protein.

But the gelatin doesn't like this - it is very unnatural for those water-hating bits to be exposed to water. So when you add this to beer, it likes to stick to stuff - the water-hating bits will seek out water-hating bits of other proteins. The water-loving bits (especially the charged bits) will seek out molecules of the opposite charge. The end effect is the gelatin links together a lot of the charged and water-hating stuff in the beer - i.e. proteins & yeasts - causing them to form flocks which then settle out of the beer.

Given that, you may wonder why it works better in cold beer. The reason here has little to do with the gelatin, and instead has to do with the proteins and yeasts in solution. At warmer temperatures, water will tend to form 'hydration shells' around solubilized structures - i.e. a stable "shell" of water will associate with proteins, helping to keep them in solution. Due to some of the odder aspects of protein chemistry, these shells are less stable at lower temperatures - meaning they do not shield the proteins from the gelatin. As such, the gelatin has better access to the proteins (and yeasts), and thus are more able to clear the beer. In fact, this is what happens with chill haze - cooling of the beer brings the proteins out of solution; a small degree of aggregation occurs, making the beer cloudy. Gelatin, added to this cloudy solution, will further link these clumps together allowing the aggregates to quickly fall out of solution."

from http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/01/brewing-science-gelatin-clearing-beer.html

Not entirely certain if 100% correct but is in line with other statements I've read about the chemistry of gelatin use for finning.

Gavin C said:

I don't think that's possible. The temperatures don't stratify like that. Once the hot gelatin solution is added it cools and the beer warms (tiny amount) almost immediately.

you don't get a hot gelatin layer on the top in the same way if you were to add 100ml of hot water to 5 gallons of cold water you will just have slighly less cold water.

Add milk to hot coffee or tea and things mix pretty rapidly even without stirring.

Maybe you're right I just don't see how it could work that way. But it does work

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I have never actually tested the beer to figure out where the gelatin ends up shortly after adding, just know the general idea. Hot water is slightly less dense than cold water, and sugar-free gelatin is generally less dense than water, so if you pour gently into the carboy, it should sit near the top longer than it would if it were pure water at the same temperature. Do you really think that when you pour a small amount of liquid gently on the surface of a large amount of liquid that the heat and liquid are immediately distributed throughout the entire volume? On that count you are definitely wrong, or we wouldn't need to stir the wort when chilling with a copper coil. The top layer of water will be much warmer for a while, unless you literally launch the hot liquid into the cold one, but no one does that with beer because they don't want to splash/introduce oxygen.

Your coffee analogy isn't so hot either. Try gently adding a fraction of a teaspoon of half & half or milk to 12 ounces of coffee from just above the liquid surface and it will sit on top for a while unless you stir. If you pour from the carton normally (when not worried about mixing/splashing), you are introducing a lot of energy/mixing. Also, milk and half & half are more dense than water, plus you are adding cold (more dense) to hot (less dense), so it will sink more readily than hot gelatin in cold beer.

Gavin C said:

Usually crash and a day or two later gelatin in the FV, day or two later keg. I don't like gelatin in the keg.

1/2 tsp in a 5.5 gallon batch

Clears fast. No sure how fast. I like the results I get though

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I use the exact same process. Works like a champ.


Blond ale

Bock

Don't remember. Something yellow.

ESB

Gavin C said:

Usually crash and a day or two later gelatin in the FV, day or two later keg. I don't like gelatin in the keg.

1/2 tsp in a 5.5 gallon batch

Clears fast. No sure how fast. I like the results I get though

Click to expand...

Same here as well. I like adding the gelatin to cold beer. Cold crash first, then gelatin, then transfer to the keg. By the time its done force carbing, the beer is pretty transparent. After a week, crystal.

wardens355 said:

I have never actually tested the beer to figure out where the gelatin ends up shortly after adding, just know the general idea. Hot water is slightly less dense than cold water, and sugar-free gelatin is generally less dense than water, so if you pour gently into the carboy, it should sit near the top longer than it would if it were pure water at the same temperature. Do you really think that when you pour a small amount of liquid gently on the surface of a large amount of liquid that the heat and liquid are immediately distributed throughout the entire volume? On that count you are definitely wrong, or we wouldn't need to stir the wort when chilling with a copper coil. The top layer of water will be much warmer for a while, unless you literally launch the hot liquid into the cold one, but no one does that with beer because they don't want to splash/introduce oxygen.

Your coffee analogy isn't so hot either. Try gently adding a fraction of a teaspoon of half & half or milk to 12 ounces of coffee from just above the liquid surface and it will sit on top for a while unless you stir. If you pour from the carton normally (when not worried about mixing/splashing), you are introducing a lot of energy/mixing. Also, milk and half & half are more dense than water, plus you are adding cold (more dense) to hot (less dense), so it will sink more readily than hot gelatin in cold beer.

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It is hotter till the moment you add it. The tiny volume of gelatin solution will cool not quirte immediately but almost.

The gelatin solution will not immediately diffuse through the beer. Never suggested that. I visualise it like a slowly enlarging and sinking cloud of gelatin. More like an expanding fart than a slowly sinking evenly stratified layer.

Granted my milk in coffe analogy is crude but does mimic what's happening (granted cold added to hot, not hot added to cold)

Add a tiny amount of milk (1cc) and you would be hard pressed to measure temperature differential at any point in the coffee. It would take a little time to thoroughly diffuse but wont sit on the top in an even layer.

I suppose either way, it's just a matter of how we visualize things. From a practical standpoint it matters nt a jot.

I'll stick with my expanding fart image.

Just a couple of quick questions,
Is the gelatin added to the fermenting bucket before you cold crash or to the racked keg?
If it is added to the fermenting bucket will using gelatin to clear be a problem if I harvest the slurry for future beers?
thanks
jbrown

+1 to gelatin. I find it clears most beers in a matter of 3 to 4 days. It is best to cold crash the beer and then add the gelatin.

Gavin C said:

I suppose either way, it's just a matter of how we visualize things. From a practical standpoint it matters nt a jot.

I'll stick with my expanding fart image.

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We'll agree to disagree

I always fine in the keg. Burst carb at 40 psi for 24 hrs, hit with gelatin, turn down to serving pressure. 48 hrs is about right to damn-near crystal clear. And it only gets better.

This was a few days after gelatin:



This was ~2 weeks later:

wardens355 said:

We'll agree to disagree

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I couldn't aggree with that.

*storms off, red faced and in tears, tighly clutching a balled up sachet of "Knox Gelatine" in each white knuckled fist*

Jbrown57 said:

Just a couple of quick questions,
Is the gelatin added to the fermenting bucket before you cold crash or to the racked keg?
If it is added to the fermenting bucket will using gelatin to clear be a problem if I harvest the slurry for future beers?
thanks
jbrown

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It's best to add the gelatin to already cold beer, so add it after beer is below 50 degrees. In my case I added it at 32 degrees. I wouldn't add it to the primary if you are going to harvest the slurry so just add it to the keg if that's is the case.

Jbrown57 said:

Just a couple of quick questions,
Is the gelatin added to the fermenting bucket before you cold crash or to the racked keg?
If it is added to the fermenting bucket will using gelatin to clear be a problem if I harvest the slurry for future beers?
thanks
jbrown

Click to expand...

There seems a split camp when it comes to adding gelatin before/after coldcrashing. I have done it both ways, and I prefer the gelatin addition after cold crashing. I saw beers with gelatin added when the beer was warm clear at a slower rate than gelatin added to beer that was already chilled for a few days. Both beer in the end cleared to a brilliant clarity. So both ways work, but in my experience, you will get faster results from adding it to beer that has already been crashed.

I've done it both ways and I did find better results with the cold crash first then gelatin approach.

Just did it the other way once so not the strongest of "evidence"

So.... I tried this for 3 days and my beer is very cloudy still... I wish I had stuck to my typical coldcrash for 7-10 days but its in the keg now. I guess I could try the gelatin again but now in the keg but I have never had good luck with beer clearing once its kegged. Not sure why but I always thought maybe the pickup tube was picking up sediment.

What kind of gelatin are you guys using because I tried a second gelatin addition to my oktoberfest in the second keg and after two days its not much more clear. I just have a bag of gelatin I bought from my LHBS.

djonesax said:

What kind of gelatin are you guys using because I tried a second gelatin addition to my oktoberfest in the second keg and after two days its not much more clear. I just have a bag of gelatin I bought from my LHBS.

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Knox gelation. Sometimes gelatin is not effective. Did you follow a procedure similar to this:

How to clear with gelatin

wardens355 said:

Knox gelation. Sometimes gelatin is not effective. Did you follow a procedure similar to this:

How to clear with gelatin

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I followed a process exactly like that.

djonesax said:

I followed a process exactly like that.

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Not sure exactly why, but sometimes it just does not work. A while back I added gelatin to one of my beers and it didn't improve the clarity that much. Some beers just seem destined to poor clarity, maybe related to hot/cold break, mash issues and/or hops.

wardens355 said:

Some beers just seem destined to poor clarity, maybe related to hot/cold break, mash issues and/or hops.

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I added Gelatin to the primary and it didn't do anything in 3 days. 3 days later I added more Gelatin to the unserved keg and it does seem a little bit clearer but NOT as clear as the keg I have been drinking from for 6 days

So it seems that the beer IS clearing but at the same rate as my Ales with out the gelatin. This is my first lager so maybe it is clearing faster than normal, I have nothing to compare it to.

David

If you're not able to cold-crash the beer while it's still in the carboy (primary or secondary), what happens if you add gelatin at bottling time? Will the beer clear when the bottles are eventually refrigerated? Or maybe they'll clear (slowly) while the beer is carbing at cellar temperature?

Finings added after cold crashing minimizes the chance of getting chill haze later, or so I have been told

Gavin C said:

Usually crash and a day or two later gelatin in the FV, day or two later keg. I don't like gelatin in the keg.

1/2 tsp in a 5.5 gallon batch

Clears fast. No sure how fast. I like the results I get though

Click to expand...

Do you use the same process (with 1/3 c of water as opposed to 2/3 cup) as the previously linked article?

Did you collect and discard the first pint two days after putting the gelatin in the keg? After doing the job of clearing the beer, the gelatin with its payload of particles settles on the bottom of the keg. Yes, the pickup tube will pick all that lovely stuff up first. You should see a clear pour pretty quickly after that.

EtchyLives said:

Do you use the same process (with 1/3 c of water as opposed to 2/3 cup) as the previously linked article?

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I use about 125cc of water. Don't know what that is in cups I'm afraid.

I like metric

My process is outlined with some pictures here. Nothing revolutionary.

Gavin C said:

I use about 125cc of water. Don't know what that is in cups I'm afraid.

I like metric

My process is outlined with some pictures here. Nothing revolutionary.

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Thanks much. I'm clearing with gelatin for the first time in a couple days and want to get it "exactly perfectly right". And since your picture of your beer is right now sitting as example #1 of "exactly perfectly right" in my head I figured I'd ask.

I like metric, too, but my kitchen is stocked with 'Murican stuff.