Ideas for big fermentation chamber

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mario_silent

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Hello everyone! Let me introduce my dilemma recently. For the past couple of months I've been brewing in the kitchen and fermenting on plastic buckets and now glass carboys all in swamp coolers with ice and a pump that runs cold water throughout the day.

Now I've built a small brewroom (7x3.5 mts) on the top of my house to take my activity somewhere else and not invade the kitchen and the house overall. I made a smaller room inside that room to keep my fermentors. At first I was thinking of a minisplit, the room is considerably small (2x2 mts) but I feel like I'm gonna go broke with the electric bill. Then I thought of a small portable evaporative cooler, but was kind of stuck trying to find a way to control the on/off activation of the device based on some temperature reading. These smaller coolers have no chance of being hooked to a thermostat without some DIY ability I think, and I'm a beginner in this after all.

Also, I've read that controlling the temperature of the room as opposed to every fermentor wouldn't work so well, especially because of the different stages of fermentation throught carboys so now I'm left thinking, what other way do I have to keep temperature under control with relatively few interaction from me. I'm away from home at work all day so I can't really keep an eye on it all the time.

Other thing is, I could build a classic son of fermentation chamber, but I''m planning to put more buckets in there, the 50 gal kind so I would need a big chamber. Not right away, but we might start selling some beer locally (Mexico City) and if it goes well, we might purchase up to 4 or 5 50 gal fermentors like these ones:

http://brewmasters.com.mx/shop/fermentador-de-polietileno-de-50-a-200-litros-linea-economica/

We're kinda' in a budget, so I'd really appreciate some neat ideas for these project. Seems like I'm a little stuck here and I've been reading a lot but with no luck.

Thanks everyone!
 
I don't have an answer to the cooling question, but I would point out the amount of weight you're talking about. One 50-gallon/190-liter drum full of liquid will weigh over 400 pounds/190 kg. Is the floor of your brewery strong enough for all the fermenters you're planning?
 
dkevinb said:
I don't have an answer to the cooling question, but I would point out the amount of weight you're talking about. One 50-gallon/190-liter drum full of liquid will weigh over 400 pounds/190 kg. Is the floor of your brewery strong enough for all the fermenters you're planning?
Click to expand...

No problem there, very thick floors and it's certain we can hold that much weight and even more. My concern right now is the cooling part really. Maybe someone here knows an average of kWH on the newer mini splits? I'm not ditching the AC unit idea just yet.

Thanks for your response!
 
Yeah you really need to think about energy efficiency there. Get your room heat stable then use cooling coils wrapped around the fermenter, or in the fermenter and pump cold water or better yet, glycol through them. Insulate the fermenter as well to help energy efficiency and maintain stability. You can build a cheap glycol chiller with an air conditioning unit, look for plans online. Control it with a PID or someithing like a BCS-460. Yes its involved; but, worth it when you consider how many small breweries open up and have no concept of ferm temp control and are selling stuff that should be dumped. People on show up once to those places.
 
They are really charging $600+ for those OH Drums? You can save a bunch of money by sourcing those yourself, then add the holes and valves.

You can get blue 55 gal OH drums from a drum supplier for $30... then a lid for around $15.

I actually have around 1,200 of these drums right in front of me, lol.
 
Gibberoni said:
They are really charging $600+ for those OH Drums? You can save a bunch of money by sourcing those yourself, then add the holes and valves.

You can get blue 55 gal OH drums from a drum supplier for $30... then a lid for around $15.

I actually have around 1,200 of these drums right in front of me, lol.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the exact same thing... so expensive!

+1 for cooling the individual barrels with either internal or external coils and insulation.
 
i'm guessing those prices are in pesos not dollars so like $40-80 bucks.

some stainless steel coils with cold water or glycol pumped thru them ive read will be most efficient. just figure out how to outfit those barrels for it.

I am in the process of building a Fermentation cold room. We are going to get a few of the food grade blue barrels like you mentioned above. We've found 35 and 55 gallon drums here.

Ours will be about a 8ft x 6ft wood framed/plywood room with insulation foam boards. then cut out a spot for a small 5000 btu window AC unit and keep it on the coldest setting which is usually 62F. Power flickers and outages are issues for us so we are going to use a mechanical control unit or one with an auto-restart function. and get a small generator incase its out for more than a few hours.
were going to start with 25 gallons in the 35 gallon drums and see how temp swings go with that. if no issues then we'll try 40-45 gallons in a 55 gallon drum.
should be easy enough to build a small stand and rollers to move fermenters around and id suggest doing it high enough to gravity feed the beer into your kegs/bottle bucket.

I've read people using cold rooms with an ac unit with good results. And yeast strains/styles will be a big factor too if you do a cold room.
For us its just easier to get these materials and AC unit as a start-up where we live.

we currently just use a bunch of 5 gallon jugs and a nearby restaurant lets us use their walk-in cold room (set at 62F), we let them ferment for about 7-10 days, then take them out to dry hop and finish at room temp for another week. we found bottling right out of the cold room and then sitting the bottles in 80+ degree air temps, they will drop a few more gravity points and we were getting super carbed beers. letting it go to room temp for a few days solved that.
 
hopbrad said:
i'm guessing those prices are in pesos not dollars so like $40-80 bucks.

some stainless steel coils with cold water or glycol pumped thru them ive read will be most efficient. just figure out how to outfit those barrels for it.

I am in the process of building a Fermentation cold room. We are going to get a few of the food grade blue barrels like you mentioned above. We've found 35 and 55 gallon drums here.

Ours will be about a 8ft x 6ft wood framed/plywood room with insulation foam boards. then cut out a spot for a small 5000 btu window AC unit and keep it on the coldest setting which is usually 62F. Power flickers and outages are issues for us so we are going to use a mechanical control unit or one with an auto-restart function. and get a small generator incase its out for more than a few hours.
were going to start with 25 gallons in the 35 gallon drums and see how temp swings go with that. if no issues then we'll try 40-45 gallons in a 55 gallon drum.
should be easy enough to build a small stand and rollers to move fermenters around and id suggest doing it high enough to gravity feed the beer into your kegs/bottle bucket.

I've read people using cold rooms with an ac unit with good results. And yeast strains/styles will be a big factor too if you do a cold room.
For us its just easier to get these materials and AC unit as a start-up where we live.

we currently just use a bunch of 5 gallon jugs and a nearby restaurant lets us use their walk-in cold room (set at 62F), we let them ferment for about 7-10 days, then take them out to dry hop and finish at room temp for another week. we found bottling right out of the cold room and then sitting the bottles in 80+ degree air temps, they will drop a few more gravity points and we were getting super carbed beers. letting it go to room temp for a few days solved that.
Click to expand...

Actually yeah, they're in pesos so it's 30 bucks really haha, don't panic.
Awesome idea, good luck with the cold room. I'm trying to figure out the samen but never really thought of using glycol, first time I hear about it.

My biggest concern of course is the bill with the ac. I'm looking for a small unit, maybe 9000 BTUS (Seems I can't find anything smaller than 12000 around here though). Do you have any idea how many kWH I'll spend by running the aire at 66 approx all the time and the room temperature being 73-75 normally (I've been making some readings throughout these days)?

Our power bill is already high enough (thanks Mexican government) so I wouldn't want to double it or worse :S

So nice of the restaurant to let you in! wish I had someone like that and good thinking with those blue barrels, those are my choice for budget fermentors right now ;)
 
mario_silent said:
Actually yeah, they're in pesos so it's 30 bucks really haha, don't panic.
Click to expand...

HAHA, good lord I was about to think they were insane. Didnt even see that it was a .mx site! Good catch.

Did you not want to build a glycol system? Use an old A/C and cooler? Some PVC lines and stainless coils and your rockin.
 
I can't help you with an estimate on electrical costs, but I would imaging if you insulate your fermenting chamber well enough and don't open the door often, it will stay cool so the AC won't have to turn on often. I built a small fermentation chamber for my 5 gallon batches and cool it with frozen water bottles. One half liter ice bottle keeps it cool for 12 hours. Good luck with your plans.:eek:
 
Gibberoni said:
HAHA, good lord I was about to think they were insane. Didnt even see that it was a .mx site! Good catch.

Did you not want to build a glycol system? Use an old A/C and cooler? Some PVC lines and stainless coils and your rockin.
Click to expand...

Haha yeah, nothing to be surprised with about the prices.
I'm still not sure about what route to go. I just found out about the glycol so I kinda have some new ideas. I have no old A/C, never used it at home because temp never goes that high and that's why I have no idea of the pricing.
But using some coils and a cooler sounds pretty good. I'd just need some pumps and the little system could grow. My question is, can you cool the glycol with maybe plastic iced bottles? I wouldn't like to spend a lot on an A/C unit.

Also (Forgive my ignorance), why glycol? does it transfer heat better? does it keep cool for longer?
 
wsmith1625 said:
I can't help you with an estimate on electrical costs, but I would imaging if you insulate your fermenting chamber well enough and don't open the door often, it will stay cool so the AC won't have to turn on often. I built a small fermentation chamber for my 5 gallon batches and cool it with frozen water bottles. One half liter ice bottle keeps it cool for 12 hours. Good luck with your plans.:eek:
Click to expand...

Excellent, I thought it wouldn't cost thaaat much but considering buying the equipment, installation and maintenance, I'd rather go with something more clever if not more elaborate.

So how do you cool your small fermentation chamber? a vent with cool water or what's the frozen water bottles for?

Thanks for the good wishes!
 
I think you're going to have a difficult time controlling fermentation temp in a 50 gallon drum by cooling the surrounding air. That much fermenting beer will generate a lot of heat. You probably want jacketed fermenters at that volume.

Someone with experience might be able to chime in, but that would be my concern.
 
mario_silent said:
Also (Forgive my ignorance), why glycol? does it transfer heat better? does it keep cool for longer?
Click to expand...

Glycol is great for transferring thermal energy, its dirt cheap and doesn't "vanish" in pipes like water does sometimes. Glycol has been used for a long time in industrial settings for cooling reactors. It is excellent for running in a stainless coil down in the fermenter.

There are a lot of glycol builds in the DIY section of the forums. I do plan on building a system once we have a house and room... and once the fiance/soon to be wife agrees, haha.
 
Gibberoni said:
Glycol is great for transferring thermal energy, its dirt cheap and doesn't "vanish" in pipes like water does sometimes. Glycol has been used for a long time in industrial settings for cooling reactors. It is excellent for running in a stainless coil down in the fermenter.

There are a lot of glycol builds in the DIY section of the forums. I do plan on building a system once we have a house and room... and once the fiance/soon to be wife agrees, haha.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Haha hope she agrees with that, and good luck with that! congrats.
 
mario_silent said:
Haha yeah, nothing to be surprised with about the prices.

I'm still not sure about what route to go. I just found out about the glycol so I kinda have some new ideas. I have no old A/C, never used it at home because temp never goes that high and that's why I have no idea of the pricing.

But using some coils and a cooler sounds pretty good. I'd just need some pumps and the little system could grow. My question is, can you cool the glycol with maybe plastic iced bottles? I wouldn't like to spend a lot on an A/C unit.



Also (Forgive my ignorance), why glycol? does it transfer heat better? does it keep cool for longer?
Click to expand...


No you really wouldn't want to use ice bottles for cooling glycol. Those are great for swamp coolers but for what you are talking about it isn't practical.

Make sure to get a pump that can handle cold water temps.

In the states you can pick up a 5000 btu air conditioner for around $130. You want the most basic analogue type (the ones with a few dials and no digital display) as they are the easiest to modify. Check Amazon out, they probably have something that would work for you.

Glycol is an antifreeze that also has lubricating properties. That is particularly important in commercial cooling systems and as such you need to use glycol that is extremely expensive to ($50-$75 a gallon). You also need to make sure to use the proper type of glycol that is good grade. For a homemade system you could get away with a cheaper glycol. Most folks use the glycol sold for winterizing RV potable water systems. This is food grade glycol so it works well enough for the type of system we are discussing.

Here is an excellent article written by an industry expert:

http://www.probrewer.com/library/refrigeration/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-glycol/
 

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