Bringing out the Crystals - a simple recipe

I want to do a simple recipe to get a feeling for crytal malts - in this case Crystal 40 which I'm substituting with CaramunichII or Another option would be Special B for some stronger Crystal instead.

Here's the recipe, please let me know what you think.
I know that it probably would be better to have a neutral hop like magnum for the crystal to come through better but I also want to try out Citra

10L batch
OG 1,052
36 IBU

2,3kg Pilsner Malt (87%)
350g CaramunichII / Special B (13%)
Citra (13,4%) 5g at 60, 5g at 20, 15g at 10 and 10g at 0

yeast: Denny's favourite

I once did an experiment where I steeped multiple 1 gallon batches with only crystal malts and used a common bittering only hop.
I fermented them all with the same yeast at the same temperature.

It was enlightening. Not something I'd repeat but enlightening.

Cara- malts are screamingly obvious in simple pale ales at low percentages (4-6%).

13% is a bit much for what seems to be an APA utilizing Citra hops. This amount can yield reduced drinkability, high caramel sweetness & body, high undesired FG.

bobbrews said:

Cara- malts are screamingly obvious in simple pale ales at low percentages (4-6%).

13% is a bit much for what seems to be an APA utilizing Citra hops. This amount can yield reduced drinkability, high caramel sweetness & body, high undesired FG.

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Yes, I know that the % is high but I thought I'd really want to bring it out. On second thought though maybe your right and I'll use less. Maybe 'only' 8-10%

BEcause of the sweetness I was also thinking about using the higher crystal (i.e. Special B) instead. Or would the high percentage here make it to 'burnt'?

And I'm very intrigued about the high undesired FG you mention (Happened to me before). Could you expand a bit on that, please!

Thank you!

8% would be fine for an APA where you really want to experience that cara- malt profile. If you enjoy that nutty, malty, caramel sweetness and richness that caramel malts offer, you might want to try using British Crystal. It is similar to American versions, but deeper/richer/nuttier. A good choice for accentuating those flavors is to use an English yeast like WLP002 and choose more subtle, noble European hops like East Kent Goldings or Fuggles.

Special B will impart a heavy caramel taste and is often credited with the pruny, woody, burnt, raisin-like flavors. A little bit goes a long way for the right style. I don't think an APA would be the right style to use it in.

Regarding how cara-malts/dextrin malts affect higher FG:

1 - carapils a.k.a. dextrin malt - helps add...wait for it...dextrins to the beer. Dextrins are long chained sugars. The longer chained the sugar is, the less sweet it is. That is why lactose is much less sweet than fructose. We don't pick dextrins up as sweet. They do add body in the sense that they make the solution "thicker". Think of the body of heavy cream vs reduced-fat milk. Although we are talking about fat in this case, heavy cream has more "stuff" in solution, therefore it is fuller bodied. Same thing with dextrins.

2 - cara/crystal malts - add caramel flavors (depending on how dark). C60 will be more caramel while C120 will add darker raisin, and plum flavors. Crystal malts also add a degree of dextrins and some sweetness.

3 - Mash at higher temp - Temperatures above 155°F favor alpha-amalayse. Alpha-amalayse or the "debranching" enzyme breaks down starches into smaller chunks from the middle. These chunks tend to be larger dextrins instead of a small sweet sugars. Therefore, mashing at a higher temp will give a more dextrinous wort.

13% doesn't need to be much, it depends on at what temperature and for how long it is mashed. If the cara goes in with the base malt, the enzymes will chew on the sugars in the cara, making it more fermentable.

In my session-apa's I use up to 40% cara, but with caution. The darker the higher FG, unless you mash longer. I usually mash my sessions for 40 minutes with 35-40% cara, if mashed at 149F I get about 65% attenuation with my house strain, which can easily go close to 90% if I want to, by making a very fermentable wort.

40% is astronomical. I think 25% is the extreme upper guideline for those styles that call for a lot of crystal malt.

My point was that if you're using anything over say 8-10% for an American Pale Ale w/American Hops, that the APA will be dominated by the crystal character. Much of the desired hop bitterness/flavor/aroma will be greater affected. You will have a higher FG, reduced drinkability, and a great amount of caramel sweetness.

Mash this batch at 148 for 20 min and then step up to 152 for 60 min and you won't have an issue with "thickness " and it will still have enough "drinkability " yet you will still get those flavors you're looking for. I plan on doin this with special b

bobbrews said:

40% is astronomical. I think 25% is the extreme upper guideline for those styles that call for a lot of crystal malt.

My point was that if you're using anything over say 8-10% for an American Pale Ale w/American Hops, that the APA will be dominated by the crystal character. Much of the desired hop bitterness/flavor/aroma will be greater affected. You will have higher FG, reduced drinkability, and a great amount of caramel sweetness.

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Yeah. It's a lot. But it works to my intention.

Like you say, for an APA, I'd go 5-10%.

bobbrews said:

Regarding how cara-malts/dextrin malts affect higher FG:

1 - carapils a.k.a. dextrin malt - helps add...wait for it...dextrins to the beer. Dextrins are long chained sugars. The longer chained the sugar is, the less sweet it is. That is why lactose is much less sweet than fructose. We don't pick dextrins up as sweet. They do add body in the sense that they make the solution "thicker". Think of the body of heavy cream vs reduced-fat milk. Although we are talking about fat in this case, heavy cream has more "stuff" in solution, therefore it is fuller bodied. Same thing with dextrins.

2 - cara/crystal malts - add caramel flavors (depending on how dark). C60 will be more caramel while C120 will add darker raisin, and plum flavors. Crystal malts also add a degree of dextrins and some sweetness.

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Thanks for the nice explanation.
I had a few beers that finished even 10+points to high on gravity and I was surprised they didn't taste too sweet. So I guess it's because of the residuals being long chained sugars.

But when you say crystal malts only add a degree of dextrins, would that already be enough to make the 10% in my beer too sweet?

TastyAdventure said:

Mash this batch at 148 for 20 min and then step up to 152 for 60 min and you won't have an issue with "thickness " and it will still have enough "drinkability " yet you will still get those flavors you're looking for. I plan on doin this with special b

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That sounds like an interesting idea. It's to get the wort fermentable and then add some longer chain sugars from the rest of the mash time, right?

So I've brewed this recipe yesterday with some slight modifications and I'll tell you my thoughts behind what I did and would love to hear whether that makes sense:

I wanted to make a pale ale on the hoppy side to test out Citra hops and at the same time add a good amount of crystal to bring out that flavour as well. Since I have a high percentage of Crystal (10%) and also added some CaraPils (6%) for head retention (probably too much?) I didn't want the beer to have too much body or finish too high so I mashed it low at 65C/149F.

Does that make sense? Do you think it's too bitter to actually let the crystal malt come through?
My fear is that it will finish too high anyway because of the Crystal and Carapils....

10L/2.5Gallons
OG 1.053
IBU 43 (all Citra)

84% Pilsner malt
10% CaramunichII/ Crystal 60
6%Cara Pils

Citra (13,4%): 5g @60, 10g @ 20, 15g @ 10, 10g at flameout

Yeast: Denny's favourite

I personally think you should have lowered your IBUs to 35.
And I think many people will say the carapils was a bad idea. I hope you gave it plenty of oxygen (it's not too late to go stir it up and get some more in there) and yeast nutrient would haVe been ideal for this situation

TastyAdventure said:

I personally think you should have lowered your IBUs to 35.
And I think many people will say the carapils was a bad idea. I hope you gave it plenty of oxygen (it's not too late to go stir it up and get some more in there) and yeast nutrient would haVe been ideal for this situation

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Could you expand a bit on why you think the Carapils is a bad idea? And what does it have to do with oxygen (yes, I did give it a very good shake!)?

Thanks!

Carapils gives a beer more unfermentable sugars and head retention. So does Crystal malts. You already have plenty of Crystal. So adding 6% carapils on top of that will just more likely give you a beer that is too heavy. But you know, it's all opinion...
I suggested plenty of oxygen so the yeast can perform well and get your FG down, since this will be a tougher than usual wort for them

Well, hope it has enough oxygen. I'll treasure a reading in a few days and post it

84% base malt in a pale is imo not to bad. With an OG of 53 it will be nice and round if your yeast performs.

Anyhow, it seems like people are afraid of crystal/cara. As I said earlier, if added during dough-in a lot of those sugars will be converted in the mash by the alphas first, and then betas to something that is fermentable. Its not like cara/crystals are totally unfermentable either. Mashing at 65 was a good call, thats at least where I mash most of my beers and it gives good conversion towards simple sugars.

FYI... the yeast has done well on this beer; looks like the low mash temp and enough base malt paid off. it fermented out almost completely (est FG 1,010 measured 1,012). The 10% of crystal are of course very noticeable in the beer but they are not too overpowering. Depends on ones taste though, i gues.
All in all a nice and refreshing beer but there is something missing there... have to tweak something for next time... maybe it's also that so much of the crystal and the citra don't go well together. Will have the guys at the HBC have a taste.

Thanks for all of your help!