Imperial IPA, First time messing with water chemistry

Decided to finally dive into messing with water chemistry. I'll be making a Firestone Walker Double Jack IIPA clone and building my water profile from distilled water using Bru'n Water. I'm not entirely comfortable with water chemistry yet so I'm looking for feedback. My predicted mash pH is at 5.4 but my salt additions seem really high. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Grain Bill: (5.5g batch, 68% efficiency)
17lbs 2.7oz Pale Ale Malt
2lbs 6.7oz Munich 10L
5oz Bairds Carastan Malt

I would agree. I use Brewer's Friend for my water calculations. I don't know the source of the Pale Ale profile you're using, but 300 ppm sulfate is unnecessarily high. I'd max that out at 150. That'll cut back a lot on the gypsum. Calcium doesn't need to be higher than 50-70. Magnesium around 10 at most. If pH is still high at that point, considering tweaking with a bit of lactic acid instead to bring it down.

I'm sure that others will disagree with my assessment, but I'm just stating some guidelines that have worked for me. I don't really buy into the huge sulfate = great hops argument. In fact, when I've used 200 ppm SO4 or higher, the beer has had a harsh bitterness I don't enjoy. I also ameliorate distilled water, so it's the same deal as what you're working with, as far as I can tell.

I'd drop the epsom salt. You will get enough Mg from the grain and you dont need the extra sulfate that it would add. 300 is still oK though.
I would also up the CaCl a tad to decrease the SO4/Cl ratio a bit.

You seem pretty close though. Maybe start there and adjust based on our opinions on subsequent batches.

McKnuckle said:

II'm sure that others will disagree with my assessment, but I'm just stating some guidelines that have worked for me. I don't really buy into the huge sulfate = great hops argument. In fact, when I've used 200 ppm SO4 or higher, the beer has had a harsh bitterness I don't enjoy.

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I enthusiastically agree but point out that lots of people like their beer this way. A colleague gave me something commercial that he thought was just great to the point that he said he'd get back into brewing if he could make a beer like it. I couldn't even drink it and neither could my son. De gustibus non est disputandem.

Many brewers I like and respect use 300 ppm of sulfate in their IPAs. I've tried that, and I've tried a lot lower- and I have one recipe (out of dozens of IPA recipes) that I like with a sulfate of around 250 ppm; the others I like at 150 ppm.

I'd start with the 'less is more' approach myself. Leave out the epsom salts (it does have a flavor impact, in that magnesium has a slight 'sour' tart flavor at 26 ppm or so, but malt has plenty so it's not needed unless you want that), leave out the calcuim chloride, and add gypsum only so that your calcium is 50-70 ppm or so and the sulfate is 135-150. That would make a very nice beginning, and you can see if you'd like more later on simply by adding a tiny bit of gypsum to the glass.

You can always add more, but you can't take it out! The worst that can happen if that if more would be better you will think that- but if it's too much, it will be harsh and minerally and hard to drink. "Less is more", really, just like with cooking spices, until you know how the flavors play together.

The Pale Ale profile was published by Randy Mosher and was refined for ionic balance by me. It is a tried and true profile that accentuates hops and bittering by providing a nice dry finish to the beer. The inclusion of magnesium in the profile is an important component since it enables an extra dose of sulfate without increasing the calcium beyond its already high content (of course this assumes that Epsom salt is used to provide the Mg). Magnesium's taste contribution is exactly what we want in a smoothly dry and bitter PA or IPA. If you prefer fuller and maltier finish in your beer, feel free to reduce the Mg and SO4 content.

I haven't found that SO4 adds harshness to bittering. It adds dryness that enables the hops and their bittering to shine through the malt backbone. I like the 300 ppm SO4 level, but brewing is a subjective endeavor. Do experiment and find the level you and your drinkers enjoy. Many have found that 300 ppm sulfate produces a desirable result. I've also found that some push that a little higher, say 350 ppm. When AJ and I were helping with the Water book, Colin Kaminski told me that he has tried up to 600 ppm sulfate and HE liked it, but he also said his customers did not. To each, his own.

To the OP, if there will not be a simple sugar addition in that Double Jack recipe, I think you will find that the beer will need that extra drying from an elevated sulfate content. However, to allow yourself to decipher if you like that level or not, I suggest that you target a SO4 level of around 200 ppm to start with and then you can add gypsum in the glass after brewing to see if you find a higher sulfate level more to your taste.

I target between 250 and 300ppm for my SO4 and like to lean more towards the 300ppm side especially when I am brewing my black IPA's. Like yooper said i would eliminate the salts, both epsom and canning, and use gypsum. No need for much magnesium. Also I would target an SO4/Cl ratio of 5.5 to 6.0

Ok, so I brought my sulfate levels down to about 200ppm and got rid of all additions except gypsum. Why should I not worry about any Cl additions? With my current revision, my mash pH is at 5.4 which I'm happy with. Thanks for all the help. Any further instruction or feedback is more than welcome. Also, I plan on using this pH meter http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity®-Acc...=UTF8&qid=1422419012&sr=8-2&keywords=ph+meter Should I consider upgrading or will this meter be sufficient?

Personally I would bump up your sulfate to at least 250 and add some Cl as this will help accentuate bitterness and help with clarity of the beer. It is also provides a "salt" taste which can enhance the flavor of the beer and add fullness to it as well. The salt flavor is generally balanced/reduce with the additions of magnesium and calcium. I would just make sure you stay below 100ppm. For what its worth below is the water profile I used on my gold winning black IPA in the 2014 Michigan beer cup

Hello, I try to setup a water profile for an Imperial Black IPA.

I made a black IPA once, which tasted awsome. But I don't have the water profile for it now since I lost it.

This is my setup, which I don't know if its ok.



The pH is suppost to be 5.5.

Im not sure what to change or what to use for it to be as good as my last one.

Anyone can help? What can I change/Should change, what to add/remove?

alegi said:

Hello, I try to setup a water profile for an Imperial Black IPA.

I made a black IPA once, which tasted awsome. But I don't have the water profile for it now since I lost it.

This is my setup, which I don't know if its ok.



The pH is suppost to be 5.5.

Im not sure what to change or what to use for it to be as good as my last one.

Anyone can help? What can I change/Should change, what to add/remove?

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I can't open the picture. See my post above - that water profile is what I use for my Black IPA. Estimated Room temp pH is 5.4.

Just to note I don't know how much of your grain bill is roasted malt - mine is only 8% with the remaining of it being brewers, munich and cara pils. You may want to decrease your sulfate if you have more roasted grains in your grain bill.

Hmm okey, anyhow! I have this input:

Calcium: 130,6
Magnesium: 4
Sodium: 24,7
Sulfate: 79,7
Chloride: 99,9
Bicarbonate: 126,9

Total Hardness: 343
Alkalinity: 105
RA: 9

The total bill of the roasted grains: 6.3 %

rwing7486 said:

Just to note I don't know how much of your grain bill is roasted malt - mine is only 8% with the remaining of it being brewers, munich and cara pils. You may want to decrease your sulfate if you have more roasted grains in your grain bill.

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Interesting! I saw your previous note and was concerned with using 300 ppm sulfate with a black IPA. Thank you for clarifying. But I'm still curious, both sulfate and roast have the tendency to dry the palate. How dry was that beer? I am inclined to reduce the sulfate for that reason, but your result speaks volumes. And while a gold medal is nice, I still prefer to rely on the scores given by very experienced judges. Do you happen to recall the judge ranks and the final score received?

mabrungard said:

Interesting! I saw your previous note and was concerned with using 300 ppm sulfate with a black IPA. Thank you for clarifying. But I'm still curious, both sulfate and roast have the tendency to dry the palate. How dry was that beer? I am inclined to reduce the sulfate for that reason, but your result speaks volumes. And while a gold medal is nice, I still prefer to rely on the scores given by very experienced judges. Do you happen to recall the judge ranks and the final score received?

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Not that dry at all as the only roasted malt I used was de-husked CarafaIII. I looked at the judge sheets and there was a master and certified judge that reviewed the beer - comments include "Good IPA with some roastiness without astringency" "Great example of this style". The only knock I got was the aroma could have been stronger. I only used 2oz in the secondary. I since then made the beer again with 4oz and it came out even better than the first batch. I also remember during the award ceremony the announcer said the IPA category had around 80 entries ( I think it was 78).