Bottling bucket ( do I really need one)?

I am about to embark on my first brew. I have 10 years of wine making under my belt and all the equipment.
I have an old bottling bucket and filling wand, but since buyin a vacuum pump/AIO, the bucket had just sat in my basement.

My plan was to make an IPA, ferment in my primary bucket, rack to a carboy add priming sugar and bottle.

While at my LHBS shop I ran this plan by the proprietor and he would not hear my plan beyond "carboy".
"Nope, your over thinking, just use a bottling bucket" he said.
But In my mind a carboy with a vaccum pump/AIO is simpler an takes oxygen out of the equation. The vacuum pump has a throttle so I control the rate of filling a bottle.

I can use a bottling bucket, but do I need to?
Since my LHBS guy threw a wrench into the carboy/vacuum pump/brew my confidence for a first brew has been shot!

Any advice?

There is no reason it would not work as you planned. The LHBS rep is just set in his "this is how you do it" mentality. However, you also need to realize he likely gets lots of questions where folks come up with novel ideas and he has to help them figure out how to fix the result. He has a vested interest in things being easy so that he has customers who come back. If brewing was too hard, he'd lose customers. That being said, the bottling bucket is a very useful piece of equipment. It is a huge improvement over siphon bottling and can be used in many other ways throughout the brewing process. I keg now and still find uses for mine on brew day. The reality is, there are many ways to skin the brewing cat. As long as you are comfortable using the vacuum pump and can make it work with 12 oz bottles (or 22 oz bombers), I'd say go for it.

That would work if you can purge the air from the bottle you are filling. The beer splashing into the bottom of the bottle would be oxidized unless the bottle could be filled with CO2.

Totally agree with Foosier. A bottling bucket is simply a vessel from which you bottle that will have no trub (or sediment) that will be accidentally siphoned into your bottles or agitated when you prime with sugar. A sanitized carboy attached to a vacuum sounds as if it would do just as well as a plastic bucket with a a spigot (perhaps better since you neither have to hoist it or have to worry about cleaning the insides of the spigot). You bottle wines using this technique... Beer ain't in a higher class when it comes to bottling.

Beer isn't a "higher class" but it certainly tends to foam up a whole lot more. There is CO2 in suspension already from fermentation and that is going to escape when you put it under a vaccuum and start moving it. It might work fine, but foamy bottles are a possibility.

At the very least, you'll need to include that in your carbonation calculations since the online calculators all assume that CO2 will still be present in the beer.

But does the vacuum pump have a tube on it that goes to the bottom of the bottle? If yes then you certainly could. Otherwise, splashing into the bottom of the bottle is bad. The bottling bucket is easy & could be dedicated to beer, whereas the wine vacuum setup could have chemicals from the wine left in it as residue that could kill the yeast needed for carbonation.

I use a carboy for priming if am bottling. My bucket has a bunch of scratches in it so I figured instead of getting another bucket, just use the carboy. I don't have the vac pump, but a racking cane works just fine.

I've somehow managed to bottle some 250 batches without ever owning a bottling bucket.

On bottling day, I rack to an unused fermenter, add priming sugar, and then use a siphon tube with a bottle wand to bottle.

Calder said:

I've somehow managed to bottle some 250 batches without ever owning a bottling bucket.

On bottling day, I rack to an unused fermenter, add priming sugar, and then use a siphon tube with a bottle wand to bottle.

Click to expand...

Same here. Easy as pie.

flars said:

That would work if you can purge the air from the bottle you are filling. The beer splashing into the bottom of the bottle would be oxidized unless the bottle could be filled with CO2.

Click to expand...

There is no O2 in the bottle when fillng. The Vacuum pump sucks all the o2 out of the bottle and then pumps the liquid in. The only issue would be that any co2 that is released is also sucked out of the bottle as well.

unionrdr said:

But does the vacuum pump have a tube on it that goes to the bottom of the bottle? If yes then you certainly could. Otherwise, splashing into the bottom of the bottle is bad. The bottling bucket is easy & could be dedicated to beer, whereas the wine vacuum setup could have chemicals from the wine left in it as residue that could kill the yeast needed for carbonation.

Click to expand...

The attachment to fill a carboy could have a standard racking hose attached to it. This would allow the brew to NOT be splash racked and fill the carboy.

When filling bottles the attachment does shoot the liquid at the side and cause splash racking. However there is a throttle that allows me to control the speed at which this occurs. I could slow it down to a crawl but it would avoid the side of the bottle and drop to the bottle of the bottle, still releasing CO2.

I could attach a small hose to bottling attachment that would allow the liquid to fill at the bottle. The only down side of this would be the hose would take up space not allowing me to fill to the desired level.

There is no left over wine chemicals in any of the tubes used in racking my wine.
After any racking, bottling or degassing I wash all my equipment and spritz with K-meta solution. Than before use I spritz everything down with K-meta solution.

I keep all my stuff clean and sanitized.
Of course the more I discuss this I find that I am coming up with more solutions.
This is a very good method of thinking it out and working it out without having to get my hands dirty.

The problem being that the bottling wand keeps oxygenating of the wort at bay by filling from the bottom up. When the wand is removed, the perfect head space for that size bottle is created by volume displacement when the wand is removed.

I just got an all in one vacuum pump for Christmas. Did some test runs with last night using water. I think your plan is perfect. Beer foams up when using a bottling wand as well when bottling. I think the convenience and time savings by using the aio pump will trump any issues with co2 coming out of suspension.

The bottling attachment for the aio has a little nozzle that makes it easy to fill bottles to the proper level.

The only way I ever got foam with a bottling wand was when it was attached to an auto siphon. When attached to the spigot on a bottling bucket, I get little or none. Auto siphons can suck air.

unionrdr said:

The problem being that the bottling wand keeps oxygenating of the wort at bay by filling from the bottom up. When the wand is removed, the perfect head space for that size bottle is created by volume displacement when the wand is removed.

Click to expand...

However an auto siphon can suck air
and when using a bottling bucket the top of the must gets exposed to air.
When in a carboy the air space is limited and a vacuum pump removed air from the bottle and replaces it with liquid.

I dont doubt that a vacuum pump may splash and cause more CO2 loss than a bottling bucket/wand set up, however I dont think there is any compassion in terms of oxygen exposure between the 2 methods.

However I think adding a length of hose (the size of wand) to the bottle attachment could be the best of both worlds.
This way I can fill under vacuum, but still fill from the bottom of the bottle up.

"I could attach a small hose to bottling attachment that would allow the liquid to fill at the bottle. The only down side of this would be the hose would take up space not allowing me to fill to the desired level."

Actually, you want some head space when bottling beer. A small tube going to the bottle of the bottle leaves the perfect amount of head space for a beer.

And just to clarify, you do not want to splash your beer around even in vacuum situation. We are using that word loosely here. Your pump is going to be rated to some fraction of an atmosphere at full output. Let's say 1/4 atmosphere for arguments sake. That means it pumped out 75% of the air, but 25% is still there. That is a whole lot better than just open air, but you still have O2 present and you don't want to splash.

As far as off flavors - cleaning and sanitizing is often not enough. eg rootbeer is notorious for contaminating beer lines. No matter how much you still get a residual taste.

My 2 cents - get yourself a 40oz bottle of the cheapest beer on the shelf. Pour it into an open container and let it sit there for an hour. Then try your method with a thin hose to fill a 12oz bottle with the pump. If it goes smoothly, great. If not, you've only wasted some $2 swill. It will also be a pretty flavorless test, so you should be able to detect any off tastes very easily.

Pyg said:

However an auto siphon can suck air
and when using a bottling bucket the top of the must gets exposed to air.
When in a carboy the air space is limited and a vacuum pump removed air from the bottle and replaces it with liquid.

I dont doubt that a vacuum pump may splash and cause more CO2 loss than a bottling bucket/wand set up, however I dont think there is any compassion in terms of oxygen exposure between the 2 methods.

However I think adding a length of hose (the size of wand) to the bottle attachment could be the best of both worlds.
This way I can fill under vacuum, but still fill from the bottom of the bottle up.

Click to expand...

I mentioned auto siphons ability to suck air through the length of tubing involved. I gave up on it till I found a smaller diameter tubing that fit really tight. But my bottling bucket has a recess on the spigot's spout for 3/8" ID tubing to fit snugly over it, so no air gets in the line. I put a lid on top of the bucket loosely so it gets only what air is needed to displace the beer inside. Otherwise, a vacuum would slowly be created that slows & stops the flow. It's not so much about Co2 loss as getting it bottled & capped as quickly & efficiently as possible with minimal introduction of air. But the tubing (ie bottling wand) must also go to the bottom of the bottle to minimize splashing or other introduction of air.

unionrdr said:

When the wand is removed, the perfect head space for that size bottle is created by volume displacement when the wand is removed.

Click to expand...

Not everyone believes it leaves the 'perfect' head space. I think it leaves a too big of a head space. As I pull it out, I put the tip against the neck of the bottle to fill to about 3/4 inch from the top.

Pyg said:

I dont doubt that a vacuum pump may splash and cause more CO2 loss than a bottling bucket/wand set up, however I dont think there is any compassion in terms of oxygen exposure between the 2 methods.

Click to expand...

It is for wine, it should work fine for keeping O2 out. However, there is a lot of CO2 in unprimed beer. You might find half the bottle is full of foam. Make sure you have a back-up plan. You could just use a siphon hose and kink it to stop the flow - messy, but it works.

the guy who made my Vacuum pump just informed me that by keeping the red line exposed (in the picture above) caused the pump to not suck the CO2 out of bottle.

So I may not have to create a bottling wand hose after all.

Kinda hard to tell from the picture, but all you need is for the "out" line to be near the top and exposed. That has to stay above the fill level or else you would suck up beer/wine and not air. The "in" line could be at the bottom with any sort of extension. It's exactly like a keg setup but with the liquid being pulled by vaccum instead of pushed by CO2.

The head space it creates has worked fine for me since the beginning. I don't see why less would be preferable, unless it's a low carbonation style? But I do think there's some over-thinking going on here.

WI_Wino said:

I just got an all in one vacuum pump for Christmas. Did some test runs with last night using water. I think your plan is perfect. Beer foams up when using a bottling wand as well when bottling. I think the convenience and time savings by using the aio pump will trump any issues with co2 coming out of suspension.

The bottling attachment for the aio has a little nozzle that makes it easy to fill bottles to the proper level.

Click to expand...

I used my aio to bottle for the first time last night. When I racked from primary to a carboy with the priming sugar, an absolute ton of co2 came out of solution and foamed up in the carboy. When I bottled, not much co2 was released that I could see.

I primed as normal (3.3 oz of sucrose for 5.5 gallons of esb). I'll see if carbonation is screwed in a couple of weeks.

Next batch I bottle I'm going to siphon manually to a bucket with priming sugar mixture. Then bottle using the pump. The pump fills bottles so much faster than the bottling wand, especially at the end of the batch.

WI_Wino said:

I used my aio to bottle for the first time last night. When I racked from primary to a carboy with the priming sugar, an absolute ton of co2 came out of solution and foamed up in the carboy. When I bottled, not much co2 was released that I could see.

I primed as normal (3.3 oz of sucrose for 5.5 gallons of esb). I'll see if carbonation is screwed in a couple of weeks.

Next batch I bottle I'm going to siphon manually to a bucket with priming sugar mixture. Then bottle using the pump. The pump fills bottles so much faster than the bottling wand, especially at the end of the batch.

Click to expand...

There is about 1 volume of CO2 entrained in the beer before you add priming sugar. If that came out due to the pump, your carbonation level will be low. Looks like you aimed for about 2.5 volumes - You might end up with 1.5 volumes (or not much more than drinking flat beer).

If you rack normally to the priming vessel, and use the pump in the bottle, wont the CO2 foam out in the bottle? Report back on your results.

Pyg said:

I am about to embark on my first brew. I have 10 years of wine making under my belt and all the equipment.
I have an old bottling bucket and filling wand, but since buyin a vacuum pump/AIO, the bucket had just sat in my basement.

My plan was to make an IPA, ferment in my primary bucket, rack to a carboy add priming sugar and bottle.

While at my LHBS shop I ran this plan by the proprietor and he would not hear my plan beyond "carboy".
"Nope, your over thinking, just use a bottling bucket" he said.
But In my mind a carboy with a vaccum pump/AIO is simpler an takes oxygen out of the equation. The vacuum pump has a throttle so I control the rate of filling a bottle.

I can use a bottling bucket, but do I need to?
Since my LHBS guy threw a wrench into the carboy/vacuum pump/brew my confidence for a first brew has been shot!

Any advice?

Click to expand...

i use a bucket simply because it's easier to clean than a carboy.

for bottling the container doesn't actually matter

and, your technique is fine... anything that fills the tube with fluid, so that the siphon works, is fine.

WI_Wino said:

I used my aio to bottle for the first time last night. When I racked from primary to a carboy with the priming sugar, an absolute ton of co2 came out of solution and foamed up in the carboy. When I bottled, not much co2 was released that I could see.

I primed as normal (3.3 oz of sucrose for 5.5 gallons of esb). I'll see if carbonation is screwed in a couple of weeks.

Next batch I bottle I'm going to siphon manually to a bucket with priming sugar mixture. Then bottle using the pump. The pump fills bottles so much faster than the bottling wand, especially at the end of the batch.

Click to expand...

Did you splash rack from primary?

I am cutting extra hose to reach the bottom of the carboy, hoping to avoid splash rack

Pyg said:

Did you splash rack from primary?

I am cutting extra hose to reach the bottom of the carboy, hoping to avoid splash rack

Click to expand...

No, I had a racking cane in each carboy. Both were basically touching the bottom of the carboy.

WI_Wino said:

I used my aio to bottle for the first time last night. When I racked from primary to a carboy with the priming sugar, an absolute ton of co2 came out of solution and foamed up in the carboy. When I bottled, not much co2 was released that I could see.


Next batch I bottle I'm going to siphon manually to a bucket with priming sugar mixture. Then bottle using the pump. The pump fills bottles so much faster than the bottling wand, especially at the end of the batch.

Click to expand...

It occurred to me that when using a vacuum pump co2 is vacuumed out secondary container.

I may attempt to keep the must above the secondary container, turn the pump on to get a flow going and then turn the pump off to stop the vacuum.

I know that the AIO has a small hole on the bottle filling attachment, if you keep that hole exposed while filling bottles it cuts down on the vacuum and won't suck out as much Co2

Yes, overthinking indeed.

unionrdr said:

But I do think there's some over-thinking going on here.

Click to expand...

Not uncommon

Rack to bucket, stir in primer, hook up wand, bottle, cap, wait, drink ,then make more. The keep it simple method seems fine for me and my beers.

As one who has bottled a thousand beers, you guys are making me snicker with how complicated you are making the simple act of bottling a beer.
Oh and that you kinda want that little bit of foam from the co2 coming out of solution. It forces the oxygen out of the head space.

The pump reduces the time to fill bottles. I was filling them faster than my wife could cap them. In my experience the last third of the bottling bucket takes forever. I agree using a bottling bucket is easy. But it's slow.

So I cracked my first couple of bottles of the ESB I racked with the vacuum pump. Carbonation appears to be lower than I was shooting for. My beer has been conditioning in my 60 F basement since 1/2/15 so I may get a little more carb over the next several weeks.

I did bottle another beer using the pump but racked onto the priming sugar solution using an auto siphon. That was about a week ago so I'll report back on that one in another week.

WI_Wino said:

So I cracked my first couple of bottles of the ESB I racked with the vacuum pump. Carbonation appears to be lower than I was shooting for. My beer has been conditioning in my 60 F basement since 1/2/15 so I may get a little more carb over the next several weeks.

I did bottle another beer using the pump but racked onto the priming sugar solution using an auto siphon. That was about a week ago so I'll report back on that one in another week.

Click to expand...

I used the pump to rack twice (once out of primary, and again from carboy to carboy).
However each time I cut a length of tube which ran to the bottom of the carboy and prevented splash racking.
I turned on the pump until I got a draw and then turned it off.

When bottling I put some holes in the second hose, which disabled the vacuuming porting of the pump. I did get some bubbles so it remains to be seen how much carb I get.
I did purposly use 5oz for less than 5 gallons in hopes that a little more carb would balance out any gas I lost!

but filling with the vacuum pump made everything so much easier!

I have come to the conclusion that anyone who told me "you dont need a vacuum pump" or "your over thinking it"
has either never used a vacuum pump or (like my LHBS people) have no clue what one is!