VFD Variable frequency drives ?

Who knows about these? Are VFD only made to control 3 phase motors? from what I have read there are some units that output single phase that could control a march pump, but they are less common. There are a lot of inexpensive single phase input, three phase output options but they would require a 3 phase motor.

Any one controlling a march pump with one of these?

I doubt you'll find any true VFDs that output single phase as virtually all industrial ac motors are 3 phase. If all you're wanting to do is control the speed of a small motor, a VFD is going to be overkill, anyway.

If your pump has a universal motor, there's a number of drill/router speed controllers that will work for manual control, like this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HQAVNI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you're looking for some kind of PLC control, you're probably SOL.

I assume you are trying to control the pump's flow rate.
A throttling valve may be the easiest way to control flow rate.

For automation on the flow rates we are looking to control. Look into getting a brush-less permanent magnet DC pump. You can control flow rate by controlling the voltage at the pump which is easily done with PWM and a smoothing circuit. As was suggested above, a throttling valve is your other option but then requires a servo to control if you are looking to automate.

You can hook a single phase motor to a three phase VFD. As long as it doesn't have phase imbalance protection. I've done this to make a 50 hertz motor from euorpe work here in the states. Keep in mind that when change the frequency on single phase motor it doesn't behave like a three phase motor does.

Also you have to over size the freq drive.

The Teco FM50 product line has a bunch of options to choose from including 1 phase in 1 phase out. I use one to drive a 3 phase dust collector that I picked up cheap from a cabinet shop that went out of business. Very popular unit in the hobby wood working world.

http://www.factorymation.com/Products/FM50/

EDIT - ok, looks like they have 1 single phase in single phase out option. It's 230 V as well and not that cheap.

http://www.factorymation.com/Products/FM50_230V/FM50-2P2-N4FS.html

Look at the Belimo control valves, in the 1/2" size (207-216 series) with floating (open-close) or proportional actuators. Low end cost for nickel plated brass valve with SS internals and TR actuator is under $90, for proportional actuator model ~$130. If planning on using a bcs 462 or brewtroller control platform, then floating control (2 on/off control points needed ) actuator is only choice. If building with a PLC that has 4-20ma / 0-10V outputs, proportional control actuator is what is needed.
I use 5 of the proportional control actuated Belimo valves in an automated brewing system for flow control of water and wort circuits. Sourced from Ebay for under $30 each in various auctions 6 years ago, total cost was not that bad.
VFD/PWM is a possible control method, but with small pumps it could be a nightmare to tune as small variations in RPM could make large changes in flow depending on system plumbing and back pressure.

hung,
We had small conveyors with DC motors and controllers at my prior job.

The controller was similar to this:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DART-CONTROLS-Variable-DC-Speed-Control-2M510?Pid=search

I think we used 0-10V as the input.

'da Kid

Next time I brew a batch I'll hook my single phase march pump up to a vfd and report back.

Another option.
I bought a March AC-5B-MD head and a three phase motor separately. I use an automation direct frequency drive for that motor. Works great and pumps really fast.

Thanks for all the info. This about confirms what I was thinking. Malador, what motor are you using to run the AC-5B-MD?

I'd like to get away from ball valves, and switch to butterfly valves but they are not good for controlling flow rates.

Bsquared said:

Thanks for all the info. This about confirms what I was thinking. Malador, what motor are you using to run the AC-5B-MD?

I'd like to get away from ball valves, and switch to butterfly valves but they are not good for controlling flow rates.

Click to expand...

I use a 1/8 hp(0.125) baldor motor. It has the same rating as the motor that pump head is sold with. I wouldn't be surprised if the march motors are rated a little high. If i need to get my whirlpool going a a little faster i run the motor at about 105%.

Be careful what motor you connect to a VFD. Not all motors are meant for that and you can damage the motor quite quickly. Stick to motors that expect inverter fed supply. Also, don't slow motors down too far with a VFD.

Realistically, your best option is to run a DC motor with is easy to control with voltage input.

Thanks for all the input. I ended up getting a sanitary diaphragm valve, now I have the control I need for my 10 gallon system. I think when i move up to 5-7bbl is when I'll be investing in a VFD.

Malador

digging up an old thread....I was looking to do a same setup as yours. Where did you get the pump head from and did it include all the mounting pieces that you needed. Also do you happen to have the motor shaft info ( dia/length, keyed, flat etc). I found some Automation direct VFDs on Craigslist for 50 bucks shipped but just want to make sure I've got the full package planned out before I buy.I've been having a hard time finding all the information I need on the March website. Thanks.

BigBlock said:

Malador

digging up an old thread....I was looking to do a same setup as yours. Where did you get the pump head from and did it include all the mounting pieces that you needed. Also do you happen to have the motor shaft info ( dia/length, keyed, flat etc). I found some Automation direct VFDs on Craigslist for 50 bucks shipped but just want to make sure I've got the full package planned out before I buy.I've been having a hard time finding all the information I need on the March website. Thanks.

Click to expand...

I'm using a Baldor CNM20132 for the motor. The frame didn't match the pump face, so I just made an adapter plate with some 1/4" aluminum and a jig saw. If you don't allready have a motor, you might be able to find one with frame that matches the pump. The baldor is a 42c frame motor, you can get the dimensions of the face and shaft here:

http://www.grainger.com/tps/motors_nema_motor_dimensional_chart.pdf

As for the pump you can buy the wet end from Tesco pumps below. There is also an upgrade drive magnet available, which I bought but I don’t thing its necessary.

http://www.tescopumps.com/servlet/the-HOME-BREWING-PUMPS-cln-Repair-Parts-cln-AC-dsh-5B/Categories

Walter From March pumps is on this forum and he is an extremely helpful guy, a great resources for information.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/questions-about-march-pumps-answered-factory-210199/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/members/walteratmarchpump

Let me know if I can give you anymore information.

Thanks! Looks like I'll pick up that automation direct VFD off of ebay and keep searching for a good deal on a compatible motor. my automation set up is becoming quite a monster of different actuators and sensors. Picked up some pneumatic actuated ball valves, Electric immersion heater for recirc, and solenoids on the gas line for the propane burner.

BigBlock said:

Thanks! Looks like I'll pick up that automation direct VFD off of ebay and keep searching for a good deal on a compatible motor. my automation set up is becoming quite a monster of different actuators and sensors. Picked up some pneumatic actuated ball valves, Electric immersion heater for recirc, and solenoids on the gas line for the propane burner.

Click to expand...

You will have to post pictures, I enjoy seeing other peoples systems.

As for finding the right motor, I wouldn't worry about it being inverter rated. Modern VFDs are a little more gentle than VFD's of the past. I've put quite a few motors that are not inverter rated on VFDs, and the insualtion still test fine years later.

For useless info I've been told by Baldor engineers that they put paper slips between the windings of thier inverter motors. They have also told me not to worry about inverter ratings in most small applications.

Thanks for the info, it keeps me from having to reinvent the wheel. Its also been about a decade since I worked as a mech eng and had to size motors/couplings/etc so I'm slightly rusty. Most of what I do now is controls for thermo/fluid systems.

my build right now is still all parts, pieces, and a good amount of code completed. I should be picking up some steel in a couple weeks so that I can start on the frame. Once it gets built then things should move quick. I did pick up a DL 05 PLC the other day off of Craigslist for a steal ($40) that came with an analog expsnsion card, 12x12 panel, term blocks, and an optimate1500 text hmi. That got me sidetracked as I'm using it to control my boiler smarter than the basic aquastat that is on it and also provide some extra diagnostics.
Will definately post pics once I make some progress.

There many types of VFD of single phase and three phase. You may ask help from the technical support from this variable frequency drive supplier.

Automation direct has several single phase drives that will drive single or three phase motors (see GS1 and GS2 drives).

I am currently building a brewing system using 0.25hp 3 phase motors with peristaltic pump heads (masterflex i/p head connected with a 56C frame adapter) controlled by GS1/GS2 drives. I got all of the parts on ebay and it was still a bit more expensive than just buying march pumps (brand new would definitely be cost prohibitive), but these pumps provide many advantages (i.e. they do not need to be primed, the can run in forward and backward, they are by design very sanitary, you can control the speed with the VFD and you can have 2 pump heads to get double the flow rate).

pretender_2002 said:

Automation direct has several single phase drives that will drive single or three phase motors (see GS1 and GS2 drives).

Click to expand...

A single phase capacitor start induction run motor is built to be run at one speed only, a VFD can't control the speed of a single phase motor.

Their are VFDs that will accept single phase input voltage and output 3 phase voltage to a 3 phase motor. I have one of those on my drillpress, it plugs into a 120v outlet and the VFD outputs 208v 3 phase power.

As far as "inverted rated" motors, that would be great to have, but I have been running 50-80 year old 3 phase woodworking tools on VFDs for over 10 years without any issues.

Chris

-CHRIS- said:

A single phase capacitor start induction run motor is built to be run at one speed only, a VFD can't control the speed of a single phase motor.

Their are VFDs that will accept single phase input voltage and output 3 phase voltage to a 3 phase motor. I have one of those on my drillpress, it plugs into a 120v outlet and the VFD outputs 208v 3 phase power.

As far as "inverted rated" motors, that would be great to have, but I have been running 50-80 year old 3 phase woodworking tools on VFDs for over 10 years without any issues.

Chris

Click to expand...

Yes you are correct. Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that (I think I meant to say it will take single phase or three phase input not output).

A VFD and a 3-phase motor can be had for pretty cheap on ebay (I got three 1/4hp single phase VFDs for $100 and a motor shipped for $40).

One big thing for non inverter duty rated motors being ran on VFDs is cooling capacity. Since when you slow it down you slow down the cooling fans as well, if you try doing that to a pump that's running hot wort through it you very well might have some heating issues.