Aventinus weizenbock clone recipe

I found this on BYO: http://byo.com/recipe/714.html
Has anyone tried this or something similar like Papazian's Weizenbock? In terms of extract ingredients they both look similar except that this one recommends 45 to 50 F fermentation temps. Isn't that way too low for hefe yeast? I thought optimal was around 70 or so (even higher for pronounced banana flavors I think).

I made the Papazian weizenbock recipe for the 1st time (all grain version). Just put it on tap 2 days ago so it's not quite carbed up yet. I did sneak a taste last night and seems a bit sweet. Won't really critique it until it's been sitting for a week or more.

As for temp for fermenting, that 45-50 is if you opt for the lager yeast they mentioned. The german wheat would be your ale yeast at the 70 range.

I'm not too sure about the BYO recipe, particularly because it uses a lager yeast which Weizenbocks do not. Weizenbocks use a top fermenting Hefeweizen yeast. Here is one I did that came out quite well. I did a decoction mash, but that's up to you:

Schneider Aventinus Clone

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.38
Anticipated OG: 1.074 Plato: 18.06
Anticipated SRM: 11.1
Anticipated IBU: 15.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
58.5 9.00 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
14.6 2.25 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
16.3 2.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
10.6 1.63 lbs. CaraMunich 40 France 1.034 40

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
32.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 4.75 15.8 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan

My Adventius Doppelbock is inspired by the Aventius, but I may dump it out soon. It has way to much fusel alcohol which should be the result of letting the fermentation temps go into the low 70s. I also had the mash rest a long time at mash-out temp, due to a stuck sparge, and that created way to many fermentable sugars.

Kai

Okay...I did a ton of searching on here for a recipe....

I'm doing a weizenbock for SWMBO before she returns from the deployment.

I'm liking the recipe youposted BeeGee...did oyu ever brew this? What yeast would you use? I ran across another thread from a while back that you wouldn't actually use the german hefe strain, but a kolsch strain? I'd prefer that--I'm not a huge fan of the real strong german clove-banana thing. This might be the right time to blend two strains and see what happens.

Any input on a good aventinus like weizenbock would be appreciated.....

And NO, I am NOT decocting it! Protein rest, yes.....

EDIT: Is Aventinus a weizenbock or a wheat dopplebock? Or is that the same thing?

Dude said:

EDIT: Is Aventinus a weizenbock or a wheat dopplebock? Or is that the same thing?

Click to expand...

Interesting...the Schneider site says it is a wheat dopplebock. IIRC, that is a lager, no? Hmmm...

http://www.schneider-weisse.de/index.php?lang=en&sid={sid}&tpl=brauerei.spezialitaeten.aventinus

Could I get away with doing this with a hefe yeast?

Weizenbock/wheat Doppelbock, basically the same thing. And I have seen BYO erroneously spec a lager yeast for this style when it is traditionally only brewed with a Hefeweizen yeast according to all the literature I have seen. It may be bottle conditioned with a lager strain.

I did brew my recipe and used the 3068...I thought it was great. It's not as phenolic/estery as a regular Hefeweizen due to the increased maltiness, but it does have those characteristics.

I also recently had one of Kaiser's Doppelbocks which I thought was great (not surprisingly, he had some reservations... ).

In Germany, the designations Bock and Doppelbock are made based on the OG of the beer and are basically tax brackets. Bock is everything between 16 and 18 *P and Doppelbock is everything above 18 *P. It doesn't matter if its a lager or not. Most of these beers happen to be lagers though.

Baron von BeeGee said:

I also recently had one of Kaiser's Doppelbocks which I thought was great (not surprisingly, he had some reservations... ).

Click to expand...

I think the alcohols come though as to sharp. But I feel that I'm close with this one. One more iteration and paying more attention to yeast and fermentation and I'm there.

Dude, make sure you keep the fermentation temperatures in the mid 60s to minimize the amount of higher alcohols created. If you want you can use a non wheat yeast for this, but you won't get much of the wheat character. To get the big maltiness, use dark munich malt, some cara munich and also dark wheat malt if you can get that. If you use dark wheat as well, you may want to use 20% Pilsner as a conversion insurance since the Munich and dark wheat are borderline with their diastatic power. According to Weyermann they can be used to 100% in a mash.

Some Carafa or Carafa Special can be added to give it a touch of roast if you desire so.

Kai

I brewed this beer. It is quite yummy.

I also entered it into the local bockfest contest where I won first place in the weizenbock category so I can safely say its a solid recipe. :rockin:

I used the recommended 3068. I have brewed quite a few hefe style beers now. I have used

white labs klosch
white labs hefeweizen
wyeast labs 3068

Supposedly 3068 and wl300 are the same strain. I can tell you though that 3068 produces virtually no banana flavor or aroma and the fruity/clove are much more subdued. Side by side comparisons with all controllable variables the same.

The klosch is a very clean yeast similar to 1056/cal ale/s05 but it seems to leave a bit of bready flavor which I like. Its awesome in beers which are simple. I have used it in american wheat as well as a vanilla caramel cream ale.

I did a triangle test with this brew vs adventitius. They had a very similar profile however mine was a bit weaker on the ester/phenolic profile compared to the original. Going forward if I were trying to make a closer clone. I would use the white labs 300 instead of 3068 or switch to wyeast forbidden fruit which is even more phenolic.

I got the tasting notes back from the judges on this beer. This is my first contest so I don't have any idea what a good score is versus a bad score. I know it places #1 so here is the summary of the score breakdowns.

The overall score was 39 out of 50.

* Aroma 8.3/12
* Appearance 3/3
* Flavor 15.3/20
* Mouth feel 4.3/5
* Overall 7.7/10

@dracus
was your award winner the BYO recipe from the OP?
- all grain or extract? (byo site lists both all grain and extract versions.)
- what temp did you ferment at?

brewed the byo extract recipe with a few adjustments due to ingredient limitations at my lhbs
5 gal batch
7 lbs of briess wiezen - (per their website 65% wheat 35% barley(undefined variety))
3.3lbs briess wiezen dme
.5 lbs choc 350L
1oz us hallertau 4.3 alpha at 60
1oz imported bavarian spalt 2.5alpha at 30
wyeast 3068

I bought my first two packs of wyeast to pitch and made a starter when I realized they were 3yrs old they didnt take off until the day I actually brewed by then I had gone back and the owner gave me three newer packs that I used to make a half gallon starter instead.

brewed last night and pitched at 7pm by 6am today it was already blowing off like crazy

Any thoughts on this recipe (all grain version) including the yeast used?

80% wheat is a lot. You want more than 50%, maybe 60%. I used 60% in my Aventinus brew.
I like the Munich. Can't go wrong with 10% Munich.

My recipe was from a Craft Beer & Brewing article and recipe. It turned out delicious. Would brew again, but would add some Munich or Dark Munich. Maybe dark wheat also. Mmm...

Special B, Crystal 40, pale chocolate... dealer's choice. Personally I went with carafa. I avoid crystal malts whenever I can.

When I brewed this with WLP300, it was a wildly vigorous fermentation. I left the lid off, and even after a week if I tried to put the lid on it foamed everywhere. This photo was from day 7 of fermentation when I thought I was safe to put the lid on.

I would push back on 3 packs of yeast. This is a style that actually benefits from underpitching because it develops more yeasty esters-- that characteristic banana and clove. And you'll be overflowing airlocks enough as is. For mine, I used harvested yeast from a weissbier, and it was a significant overpitch. Would cut it in half next time.

Good luck!

Jack Arandir said:

80% wheat is a lot. You want more than 50%, maybe 60%. I used 60% in my Aventinus brew.
I like the Munich. Can't go wrong with 10% Munich.

My recipe was from a Craft Beer & Brewing article and recipe. It turned out delicious. Would brew again, but would add some Munich or Dark Munich. Maybe dark wheat also. Mmm...

Special B, Crystal 40, pale chocolate... dealer's choice. Personally I went with carafa. I avoid crystal malts whenever I can.

When I brewed this with WLP300, it was a wildly vigorous fermentation. I left the lid off, and even after a week if I tried to put the lid on it foamed everywhere. This photo was from day 7 of fermentation when I thought I was safe to put the lid on.

I would push back on 3 packs of yeast. This is a style that actually benefits from underpitching because it develops more yeasty esters-- that characteristic banana and clove. And you'll be overflowing airlocks enough as is. For mine, I used harvested yeast from a weissbier, and it was a significant overpitch. Would cut it in half next time.

Good luck!
View attachment 810168View attachment 810167

Click to expand...

You're looking at the extract recipe %. The last paragraph has the substitutesfor the LME.
Doing that, you end up wIth:
5 lbs pilsner 27%
10 lbs dark wheat 55%
2 lbs Munich 11%
.5 lb special B 3%
.5 lb crystal 40l 3%
.25 lb pale chocolate 1%
Total grain 18.25 lbs 100%

Could you post your recipe?
Thanks

My grandmother was from Wurttemberg and my grandfather from Schwedelbach.

dmaxweb said:

Could you post your recipe?
Thanks

Click to expand...

I can't see the recipe on the link. Could you post it here?
Thanks

Sure thing:
60% Weyermann Wheat malt
37% Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner
3% Carafa I
0.75 oz Warrior at 60 min (18 IBU)
WLP300 Hefeweizen Yeast

Step mash with double decoction:
95F Mash in
113 Ferulic acid rest 15 min
122 Protein rest 10 min
147 Beta amylase rest 25 min
Remove 1/3 for decoction, pause at 158 for 10 mins, then boil
158 Recombine decoction, hold 20 min
Remove 1/3 for decoction and boil
170 Recombine decoction for mash out

You could simplify this to a 152F single infusion. The ferulic acid rest helps bring out the banana aroma, and the decoction helps bulk up the body and build malt complexity.

The final beer was dangerously drinkable, with rich malty chocolate flavors and balanced banana esters with a hint of spicy clove. Mildly sweet with a full body body and a dry finish. All-around delicious and even works on a hot day.

When I brew this again, I plan to substitute some of the Pilsner for Munich malt, maybe 50:50.

Jack Arandir said:

Sure thing:
60% Weyermann Wheat malt
37% Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner
3% Carafa I
0.75 oz Warrior at 60 min (18 IBU)
WLP300 Hefeweizen Yeast

Step mash with double decoction:
95F Mash in
113 Ferulic acid rest 15 min
122 Protein rest 10 min
147 Beta amylase rest 25 min
Remove 1/3 for decoction, pause at 158 for 10 mins, then boil
158 Recombine decoction, hold 20 min
Remove 1/3 for decoction and boil
170 Recombine decoction for mash out

You could simplify this to a 152F single infusion. The ferulic acid rest helps bring out the banana aroma, and the decoction helps bulk up the body and build malt complexity.

The final beer was dangerously drinkable, with rich malty chocolate flavors and balanced banana esters with a hint of spicy clove. Mildly sweet with a full body body and a dry finish. All-around delicious and even works on a hot day.

When I brew this again, I plan to substitute some of the Pilsner for Munich malt, maybe 50:50.

View attachment 810329

Click to expand...

Thanks!
I have a temperature controlled direct fired mash tun with recirculation. I'll probably do a step mash rather than the decoctions.

If I build a starter from the dregs of bottle(s) of Aventinus, should I use wheat DME?

Jack Arandir said:

Sure thing:
60% Weyermann Wheat malt
37% Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner
3% Carafa I
0.75 oz Warrior at 60 min (18 IBU)
WLP300 Hefeweizen Yeast

Step mash with double decoction:
95F Mash in
113 Ferulic acid rest 15 min
122 Protein rest 10 min
147 Beta amylase rest 25 min
Remove 1/3 for decoction, pause at 158 for 10 mins, then boil
158 Recombine decoction, hold 20 min
Remove 1/3 for decoction and boil
170 Recombine decoction for mash out

You could simplify this to a 152F single infusion. The ferulic acid rest helps bring out the banana aroma, and the decoction helps bulk up the body and build malt complexity.

The final beer was dangerously drinkable, with rich malty chocolate flavors and balanced banana esters with a hint of spicy clove. Mildly sweet with a full body body and a dry finish. All-around delicious and even works on a hot day.

When I brew this again, I plan to substitute some of the Pilsner for Munich malt, maybe 50:50.

View attachment 810329

Click to expand...

What was your water profile?

dmaxweb said:

If I build a starter from the dregs of bottle(s) of Aventinus, should I use wheat DME?

Click to expand...

If you have it, sure. Regular DME would also be fine. I buy whichever DME is cheaper at the time. Last time I bought some it was wheat, and I'll use it in starters whether I'm brewing a wheat beer or not.

dmaxweb said:

What was your water profile?

Click to expand...

My water is pretty close to RO water. Most of the minerals in the teens. I didn't adjust it this batch. Although I've heard that weissbiers, especially with dark malts, like water with higher minerality and hardness.

Any comments or suggestions on this recipe / water profile?

Mash pH 5.6

Looks good to me. I like the idea of dark wheat and dark Munich. No idea what it'll taste like, so let us know. I did use a single decoction in my recipe for some extra melanoidin goodness, but your recipe may not need it. This beer is made in the fermentation -- keep those yeast happy. Good luck!