Are there degrees of sanitation?

Can improper or incomplete sanitation impart weird or bad flavors? Or is it more of an, infected or not kinda thing?

Just trying to clean up my beers that all seem to have a slightly raw flavor in them.

THis is my second post of the day and I still have one more question!

Dan

danweasel said:

Can improper or incomplete sanitation impart weird or bad flavors?

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Absolutely. If it isn't clean & sanitary then you are playing Russian Roulette with your beer. When you brew beer you are essentially producing a culture medium which is then inoculated with yeast. Any stray microbes or spores that find their way in can cause all sorts of flavor problems.

Note there are no "degrees" of sanitation. Sanitation is removing 99.9% of bacteria, mold, wild yeast, etc.

Weird and bad flavors can come from MANY different variables. To help identify the problem, list your recipe and any notes you have on your brew. How long in primary, secondary (if done), bottled, ect. Weird flavors can range from infection from lack of cleaning (which you hint at) to too high of fermenting temp, to yeast eating themselves.

I guess what I was saying with the "degrees of sanitation" is: Is it possible to get 90% sanitation and get off flavors from that?

Oh and for the beers with the off flavor: They are all extract, with specialty grains. I have used nottingham and coopers ale yeast. I have started fermenting at 68F in a water bath controlled by an aquarium heater. I dry hopped the last 2 batches for a week and have cold crashed them in an ice bath for 3 days or so.The taste has been less and less but will not seem to go completely away. It is an odd taste that seems to be centered around the rear edges/sides of my tongue. Almost a "dirt" taste or something. Maybe yeast? I also just learned that I should whirlpool and siphon from the kettle instead of just dumping it in. Maybe the break is the cause?

I appreciate any help for sure,

Dan

danweasel said:

Is it possible to get 90% sanitation and get off flavors from that?

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It's either sanitized, meaning you have killed almost all wild yeast or bacteria, or you left left some behind and it's unsanitized. I think you're confusing sanitizing with cleaning.

Well yeah, I am. So, say I use star san or iodine or whatever. But then I am careless and I get a little bacteria in there. Can this cause slight off flavors? Or does it cause a full on infection or nothing?

danweasel said:

I guess what I was saying with the "degrees of sanitation" is: Is it possible to get 90% sanitation and get off flavors from that?

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YES. Cleaning & sanitation are not optional when brewing. If you want quality and consistent results. Brewing is 50% science and 50% art and if you don't do the science then the art is wasted.

Spending an extra ten or fifteen minutes to sanitize after cleaning can mean the difference between enjoying a great brew after two months of labor or dumping two months of labor down the drain.

danweasel said:

Well yeah, I am. So, say I use star san or iodine or whatever. But then I am careless and I get a little bacteria in there. Can this cause slight off flavors? Or does it cause a full on infection or nothing?

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Sanitizers, like StarSan or Iodophor, only work on clean surfaces, so you need to clean first. Oxiclean Free works very well as a cleaner. The two aforementioned sanitizers are wet-contact sanitizers, so if the surface is still wet with the sanitizer, it will kill most bacteria and spores on contact.

You can certainly make beer without adequate sanitation, but it is indeed a crap shoot, so why take the chance?

There are a number of things that can cause "off" flavors...what kind of control do you have over fermentation temperature and how much yeast do you typically pitch? Those are two big ones.

Explain your "raw flavors"

OK here goes nothing.

The taste is kind of "dirt" like. I notice that is is concentrated around the outside edge of the rear of my tongue. It is definitely a lingering flavor and is "seperate" from the original favor. I mean the beer tastes great but there is an almost immediate aftertaste of this raw flavor. It is a grainy gritty taste maybe...

I have my beer fermenting at a solid 68F in a water bath and I pitch the right amount of dry yeast (notty or muntons ale) per Mr Malty. All of my beers have had this taste but it is getting less and less. I really would love to eliminate it!

Thanks so much guys,

Dan

Grainy gritty like having sand in your mouth?

Dirt like earthy? Maybe kind of close to 'musty'?

I'm kind of new to all this, but how are you brewing? Extracts? If its LME, maybe it's past its prime?

Clean - nothing visible or noticeable to the touch
Sanitized - nothing actively alive, spores and viruses survive
Sterilized - all spores, viruses, etc dead

Well it is DME. But it might be not be not so fresh. It is kinda earthy musty tasting. Not actually gritty but the taste gives the impression that it is.

Obviously I suck at describing things...

NorCalAngler said:

It's either sanitized, meaning you have killed almost all wild yeast or bacteria, or you left left some behind and it's unsanitized. I think you're confusing sanitizing with cleaning.

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Well, sanitizing kills most wild yeast or bacteria. Sterilizing kills everything and we usually don't do that.

I think every beer, from the time you put the wort in the fermentor, has wild bugs in it. Usually it turns out OK because we add a carefully engineered, very aggressive yeast to the wort that out-competes all the other bugs vying for that sugar, protein and oxygen. But that doesn't mean that the other bugs are dead - it just means that you ended up with way more of the organisms you wanted than organisms you don't want. Sanitizing just tips the balance a little more in favor of the yeast.

billvon said:

Well, sanitizing kills most wild yeast or bacteria. Sterilizing kills everything and we usually don't do that.

I think every beer, from the time you put the wort in the fermentor, has wild bugs in it. Usually it turns out OK because we add a carefully engineered, very aggressive yeast to the wort that out-competes all the other bugs vying for that sugar, protein and oxygen. But that doesn't mean that the other bugs are dead - it just means that you ended up with way more of the organisms you wanted than organisms you don't want. Sanitizing just tips the balance a little more in favor of the yeast.

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Right - if your off flavor is due to an unintended organism growing in your beer (and there are many other causes for off flavor) then the DEGREE of sanitation does matter. If you introduce one viable organism at pitch in a low gravity beer then there is some chance that by the time the beer is bottled this little beasty may have grown enough daughters that it will cause a perceptible change in characteristics. However, lets say the beer is high gravity (more osmotic to start and higher alcohol to finish) or lets say the organism is introduced at bottling (there are fewer select beasts that can live in an alcoholic beer rather than in tasty wort) - then the chance of trouble is less. Also storage effects matter - if you have a mildly infected Weizen that is all consumed within a month then you may not have any perceptible problems. Come back to that beer a year later and you may have to pour it down the sink. Dosage of beasts matter: depends on if you introduce one bug or 10 000 at that start of the infection (that's the difference between 99% sanitized and 99.99%) - think pitching rate.

given all that I still think you would be best to look up a list of off flavors:

http://www.kroc.org/Links/TroubleshootingGuide.htm

Right - if your off flavor is due to an unintended organism growing in your beer (and there are many other causes for off flavor) then the DEGREE of sanitation does matter. If you introduce one viable organism at pitch in a low gravity beer then there is some chance that by the time the beer is bottled this little beasty may have grown enough daughters that it will cause a perceptible change in characteristics. However, lets say the beer is high gravity (more osmotic to start and higher alcohol to finish) or lets say the organism is introduced at bottling (there are fewer select beasts that can live in an alcoholic beer rather than in tasty wort) - then the chance of trouble is less. Also storage effects matter - if you have a mildly infected Weizen that is all consumed within a month then you may not have any perceptible problems. Come back to that beer a year later and you may have to pour it down the sink. Dosage of beasts matter: depends on if you introduce one bug or 10 000 at that start of the infection (that's the difference between 99% sanitized and 99.99%) - think pitching rate.

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This is exactly what I wanted to know (and always suspected). And thanks for the link. You rule, giligson!

Yes. Bachelors and Masters in Sanitation Engineering.

Earthy flavor that fades could be from hops used. I find some varieties have a sort of raw earthy flavor.