First Time - Few questions

So, I've made beer before, but never hard cider. So I went up into the East TN mountains yesterday to an Apple place that I've been going to as a child (I'm 27 now) and my mom has been going to as a child. They have really really good (more sweet, but a hint of tartness) Apple Cider that I bought 5 gallons of yesterday. So now I am ready to make hard cider, but have a few questions.

I went to the local fermenting shop today and bought some yeast. I got the Lalvin K1-V1116 yeast. I would have gotten something different, but they didn't have a good selection. I figure, if I need to, I can add some applejuice before I bottle if it's not got a great taste (or let it ferment more and backsweeten.)

Here's one of my questions. I want to kill off the wild yeast. I didn't get any tablets today at the shop, so I am wondering if there are other ways to kill off the wild yeast tonight? The cider is probably about 3-4 days old and has been stored in a fridge around 40F. Would that temp be enough to keep the wild yeasts from doing anything? Also, could I heat up all 5 gallons to say, 140F, but not bring it to a boil? Would that kill the yeast without setting the pectin?

Another question is, should I add any sugar to my cider? I want a sweeter, crisp cider if possible. I figure I will let the yeast go until about 6% ABV and then cold crash it. Would it be wise to add some sugar, or just leave it as it.

Lastly, I want to bottle and carbonate it. Is there anything I need to consider? I know with beer I always have to add priming sugar, but that's because I let the beer ferment out. Is there a way to make sure I don't pop the caps or explode any bottles when I go for carbonation?


Matthew

First of all, I'd probably suggest using an ale yeast, and not a wine yeast, as that will be not only ready faster, but will leave a fruitier taste to your finished product.

Keep it in the fridge, and get some Camden tablets at the store, I wouldn't suggest heating the juice to that temp, it changes the flavor of the cider, and sets pectins, which are a pain in the tail to remove later.

Don't add any sugar, if anything it will dry out your cider, not leave it sweeter. Which brings me to my final point, and this should be stickied as a disclaimer somewhere, as it comes up quite often. If you cold-crash a cider to stop fermentation and leave it sweeter, you can not bottle carbonate without using a beer-gun setup, which requires the ability to keg

You know no one makes great cider like the English do and have been for centuries. If I were you I'd read the info linked below here and/or try and find his (Andrew Lea) book. You'll find his advice/instruction goes against nearly everything folks in this group will tell you or have written. http://www.cider.org.uk/content2.htm

Another great resource for making great cider and access pro cider makers is located here: http://www.talisman.com/cider/

I havent had much luck with 1116, but at least one other poster has got good results from it, so hopefully it will work for you. I'd leave the wild yeast alone, because with sweet cider and the 1116, the wild yeast may give you a better finish, provided that you balance it with enough residual sugar

If you are dead set on killing the wild yeast and starting tonight, you can search to find how long you would need to hold your juice at 140 to effectively pasteurize. If you dont go beyond 140 it will probably still taste OK, but is likely set the pectin - so it will just be a little cloudy

My advice - keep your juice in the fridge and go back tomorrow for some campden. Might as well get some S04 as it will be easier to control if you want it semi sweet cider. If you have room to keep this in the fridge, you might want to try S23.

Bottle carbonating sweet cider is difficult and I would not advise starting out trying to do this. Drink it flat or keg carbonate if you want a sweet cider. Post carbonation pasteuriation and nitrogen reduction appear promising. use the search function

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I actually went to the store today looking for Safale S-04, but I didn't see it. Of course, I think the guy may have pointed me to the wine yeasts and not the beer yeasts. I may go back tomorrow and see if I can't get a better yeast. As far as the wine yeasts they had, they were all the Lalvin brand.

I think I will try and slip over there before I go out of town this weekend and also get some of the campden tablets.

Is there any safe way to at least get a little carbonation in the bottles? Basically, is there any way to get just a little bit of yeast in when I got to bottle that will eat a little sugar, but not a ton?

Thanks,

Matthew

My answer is yes.

As long as the bottles stay cold and the bottles sealed the yeast will most likely remain dormant. I really doubt you see it as I haven't yet but if you notice some becoming overly carbonated in the fridge... Cool the fridge down or drink 'em up. Better have a beverage fridge in the garage though.

So basically, I could add just a wee bit of sugar and let them sit at 60F for a day or two and then put them all in the fridge? Is there some way to let them carb a little and then put them in the freezer for a few hours to chill them enough to kill the yeast. All I want to do is carb a little and then somehow force them to stop (if I could somehow kill the yeast while in the bottle, that'd be great.)

Matthew

You can do that if you dont mind a little risk. Instead of cold crashing them, just rack them one or maybe twice to slow the ferment down so that SG is only dropping a point or two a day, let them go a few more days in the bottle and then get them all in the fridge. You risk popping some bottles if someone takes them out of the fridge tho.

If you cant find S04, Nottingham or US05 are good. Bump it with a little sugar if you use US05.

Yeah, the UK cider page is very useful. Nitrogen reduction is your friend if you want a sweet carbonated cider that keeps a long time.

for "first time" I really don't recommend trying any of the methods for getting a sweet carbonated cider without force carbing. a freezer will decrease the viable cell count, but won't get rid of them, if you drink them fast enough, sure, I suppose you can get it in the sweet spot where it's perfectly carbed, but it will continue to carbonate until all the sugars are gone, which, seeing as how 0.002 is enough to carbonate a batch, you could be facing bottle bombs by waiting a few too many weeks.

Okay, so here's where I am at. The store didn't have Safeale-04, so I got Nottingham yeast. I figure that's fine. I did 4 gallons in my ale pail and 1 gallon with wild yeast in a pickle jar that I put a gas release do-hicky in. Now here's where I am at. I put them in Monday night. It's now Wednesday night and I am seeing pretty much -zero- activity. My satellite ferment samples seem to be doing nothing either. So what's wrong? I waited a few hours from putting the campden tablets into the cider until I added the yeast. I have the cider right now at 65-68F in a decently dark place. Shouldn't it be starting to ferment by now? The only thing I think I could have done wrong was I added the yeast before I kinda shook up the ale pail to add some oxygen. But that would be pretty sad if a little sloshing could kill the yeast. Is it just because of the temp that it's not going?

Also, my starting grav. was 1.50, so I am wondering if I shouldn't just let it eat all the sugar and then I can add just a touch of priming sugar if I want to carb it since it won't be that strong and all the sugar will be gone anyway.

Matthew

macville said:

Okay, so here's where I am at. The store didn't have Safeale-04, so I got Nottingham yeast. I figure that's fine. I did 4 gallons in my ale pail and 1 gallon with wild yeast in a pickle jar that I put a gas release do-hicky in. Now here's where I am at. I put them in Monday night. It's now Wednesday night and I am seeing pretty much -zero- activity. My satellite ferment samples seem to be doing nothing either. So what's wrong? I waited a few hours from putting the campden tablets into the cider until I added the yeast. I have the cider right now at 65-68F in a decently dark place. Shouldn't it be starting to ferment by now? The only thing I think I could have done wrong was I added the yeast before I kinda shook up the ale pail to add some oxygen. But that would be pretty sad if a little sloshing could kill the yeast. Is it just because of the temp that it's not going?

Also, my starting grav. was 1.50, so I am wondering if I shouldn't just let it eat all the sugar and then I can add just a touch of priming sugar if I want to carb it since it won't be that strong and all the sugar will be gone anyway.

Matthew

Click to expand...

A few hours after the campden? Like 24 hours? Usually, if you add campden, you need to wait a full 24 hours before adding the yeast. Wine yeast is pretty tolerant to sulfites, though, I'm not sure how sulfite tolerant ale yeasts are. Stir it well, really well, to make sure the sulfites can disipate. I would think you mean your OG is 1.050. If you don't want a sweet cider, you can just add a bit of priming sugar to carb. That would work fine.

Are you certain that your cider doesn't have any preservatives added at the cider mill?

YooperBrew said:

A few hours after the campden? Like 24 hours? Usually, if you add campden, you need to wait a full 24 hours before adding the yeast. Wine yeast is pretty tolerant to sulfites, though, I'm not sure how sulfite tolerant ale yeasts are. Stir it well, really well, to make sure the sulfites can disipate. I would think you mean your OG is 1.050. If you don't want a sweet cider, you can just add a bit of priming sugar to carb. That would work fine.

Click to expand...

No, I probably waited around 4-5 hours. Did I probably kill my yeast already? Should I go get another packet of yeast and add it since it's been 3 days with pretty much no activity. If I do that, will it change the flavor of my cider since I've already added one packet.

Are you certain that your cider doesn't have any preservatives added at the cider mill?

Click to expand...

I am 100% sure that is pure 100% cider. It's from an apple place up up in the mountains of east TN. Now, you can get stuff from them that's been pasteurized, but this is the good, raw stuff.

Matthew

Nottingham is pretty resiliant and tends to start slow. If you dont see activity by tomorrow, then yes, pitch some more yeast.

CvilleKevin said:

Nottingham is pretty resiliant and tends to start slow. If you dont see activity by tomorrow, then yes, pitch some more yeast.

Click to expand...

Would it be bad to just throw another packet in tomorrow any which way? Would it change the taste in any way?

Matthew

No - you cant overpitch - they will multiply on their own anyway.

But dont just throw it in - you need to let the yeast rehyrdrate evenly. Sprinkle about a third of the packet on top of the cider, so it makes a thin film on the top of the cider. You can tap on the side of the carboy a little to get the yeast to spread out. Then when the first round sinks, pitch another third and when that sinks, pitch the rest of the packet.

Or you can make a starter - but just dont dump it in, you'll lose a lot of yeast cells that way

Good news. Got back from my weekend trip and checked the the cider and it has dropped from 1.50 to 1.45! So now, I just have to wait for it to get to 1.0! The wild cider hasn't seemed to do anything. I may wait another week before I either add some wild yeast off apples I have, or just pitch the gallon.

Matthew

Okay, so next question. My cider has reached 1.000. Does that mean all the sugar is gone, or does it need to go to .990 before I can bottle it? I would cold crash it, but since I want to store the 40 bottles it will take (really need to) outside the fridge, I want to make sure the yeast just stops and dies.

Matthew

Yeah, Notty usually doesnt go much lower than 1.000, and the sugar is mostly gone at this point.

If anyone else has got Notty to go lower than this, feel free to chime in. Your probably OK just bottling with priming sugar if you want to get bottle conditioning, as the Notty is going to be just about done at this point

CvilleKevin said:

Yeah, Notty usually doesnt go much lower than 1.000, and the sugar is mostly gone at this point.

If anyone else has got Notty to go lower than this, feel free to chime in. Your probably OK just bottling with priming sugar if you want to get bottle conditioning, as the Notty is going to be just about done at this point

Click to expand...

Thanks. I think I'll just let it sit for another day to see if it drops any lower. If it doesn't, I'll bottle it and add just a wee bit of priming sugar.

Thanks,

Matthew