Cigar City maduro oatmeal brown clone attempt

Well ended up having to run to my lhbs, the wyeast 1968 I ordered from Northern Brewer wasn't viable, my starter did nothing. They were awesome and gave me a credit for it, but had to run out and get Wlp002 for it. Used the new pure pitch packets which wasn't bad. But so far it has the right color and consistency.

I've brewed this beer a few times now. Something is still off. Im contemplating taking out the Maris Otter and substituting in American 2-row. Thoughts? The MO adds a little too much sweetness and nuttiness that the Maduro doesn't really have.

Which recipe are you going off of?

TheOrlandoGuy said:

Which recipe are you going off of?

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The one they gave me when I messaged them on Facebook:

63% 2 row
13% Crystal 60L
3% Chocolate
5.5% Brown Malt
7% Victory
8.5% Rolled Oats

Wasn't it 63% 2 marris otter? That's the original recipe...which yeast have you been using?

infectedbrew said:

Wasn't it 63% 2 marris otter? That's the original recipe...which yeast have you been using?

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No, they never specified. I assumed Maris Otter since it is a Northern English brown. I use the Wyeast 1968.

On reddit a user posted this..don't know if this is you:

"I messaged them on Facebook and they were kind enough to send me a response.
Here it is:
63% Maris Otter - 2 row
13% Crystal 60L
3% Briess 6-row Chocolate
5.5% Brown Malt
7% Victory
8.5% Rolled Oats
They use Wyeast 1968 (London ESB - Fullers). They didn't send me the hops or hop schedule but one can assume its most likely noble hops. So, I am doing a 1 oz addition of East Kent Goldings at 60 and 1 0z of Fuggles at 10; that comes pretty close to the 25 IBUs they say it has. Cheers!"

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What I did since I did an extract recipe was I used 3.15 lbs of Maris Otter extract from Northern Brewer, and 3.15 of Amber Extract, since the grains would give the beer the darker tint.

Its in the bucket bubbling away as we speak, so here's to hoping it turns out great.

infectedbrew said:

On reddit a user posted this..don't know if this is you:



What I did since I did an extract recipe was I used 3.15 lbs of Maris Otter extract from Northern Brewer, and 3.15 of Amber Extract, since the grains would give the beer the darker tint.

Its in the bucket bubbling away as we speak, so here's to hoping it turns out great.

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Yep. That's my post. Extract will definitely be harder since the extracts are usually a blend of different malts. The other specialty malts have to be mashed, you cant steep them. Either way, a good brown is a good brown. Hope it turns out well.

Update. The brew day this past Saturday went really well. That might sound sarcastic considering what I'm about to write, but the brew day was very enjoyable! With that being said, we had three stuck sparges and a lower than normal evaporation rate resulting in an original gravity a few points shy of my predicted OG. The last 4 of my 16 batches have suffered stuck sparges (some even with mashing-out). I have not changed my process, so I'm thinking the local hb shop adjusted their mill. If not, I have no idea.

BG=1.047, 78% mash eff; OG=1.053; mashed at 151F (for 60min + stuck sparges and no mash-out)
Pitched decanted wlp 002 starter into 63F wort on Sunday morning, let self-rise to 66/67F wort temp where it stayed for the rest of fermentation. Wednesday night, 3.5 days after pitching, the krausen had fallen but there was still some yeast swirling around so I decided to take a hydrometer reading to document the progress: SG=1.012/1.013 at 60F. The sample tasted great and very promising!

After reading this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=221817 and deciding that 1.012 was as low as I wanted to go with this beer, I moved the carboy into my other refrigerator to cold-crash. I used aluminum foil instead of an airlock or blow-off tube for primary, and replaced the foil with a solid bung to cold-crash. (please don’t comment on the short primary until you read the thread. I normally ferment for at least 2 weeks)

This is a 10 gallon batch split with a friend who is fermenting at 66F ambient until at least Saturday. It will be neat to see how low the yeast will take his 5 gallons and any other perceivable differences. I will report back after kegging!

My update:

Brewday went fine, except for slightly fast sparge which limited my extraction rate. I shot for 85 and got mid 80s. OG ended at 1.056.
Using wy1335, fermenting at 60-63. Was going well until fermentation took off.
It rose to around 69 before I pulled it back down with ice.

FG is sitting at 1.014. 5.5%. Now I need the yeast to settle and clear, otherwise I have an infection (hopefully not.) Beer has great brown malt aroma.
Will keg this weekend and then 2-3 weeks from now we'll see.

slsBrewing said:

After reading this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=221817 and deciding that 1.012 was as low as I wanted to go with this beer, I moved the carboy into my other refrigerator to cold-crash. I used aluminum foil instead of an airlock or blow-off tube for primary, and replaced the foil with a solid bung to cold-crash. (please don’t comment on the short primary until you read the thread. I normally ferment for at least 2 weeks)

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Gee thanks...I was trying to be productive at work, but now I'm reading that monster thread!

Clone on the left, Maduro Brown from can on the right.

The clone is only slightly lighter in color than the original; but the difference is there. The pictures are in direct evening sunlight and I believe the color difference is slightly exaggerated, esp in pic 3, as Maduro is not black. Also, mine is not filtered.

Nice pics slsbrewing. How did they compare with aroma, taste, mouthfeel (if you want to get all fancy)?

Recap: I used the recipe in post #77 and brew-day update is post #89.

The short answer: I say it is 95-98% cloned. With that being said, I will probably not change a thing the next time I brew this (except to try some EKG for bittering to see what happens). It will be brewed again, it is amazing!

As discussed in #89 this is a split batch with my friend Tommy. We each fermented at 66F. I pitched lower, at 63F, and let self rise to 66F wort temp. I used quasi open fermentation with just aluminum foil on the carboy (no airlock or blowoff tube) until fermentation was complete at 3.5 days at 1.013. At this time time I switched the alum foil for a solid bung and cold-crashed it. Next time I will use an airlock vs. the bung to cold-crash: I had some CO2 pressure build up, and this caused solid 3-5 inch chunks of Fullers yeast cake to float to the top like icebergs while racking to keg after the pressure was relieved. Tommy used and airlock and let his primary for a full week and then racked to keg. His finished at 1.012/1.013.

Tasting notes between mine and Tommy's: There was a difference, not huge but definitely noticeable. Tommy's seemed thinner and less characterful on the palate, and less aromatic/ester-y on the nose. We both preferred mine. This difference is probably due to the quasi open fermentation or the shorter primary or both.

Tasting notes between my clone and the original: Besides the usual homebrew freshness vs commercial difference, they are so close! The original is a little thinner bodied and the taste does not linger as long as the clone. There is a little something at the end of the original that was missing in the clone and I can not put my finger on it. Just checked the website, maybe its the "roasted peanut expression in the finish" they mention but I would have to drink another and look for it.

Ending thought, this is my dad's favorite FL beer (he's from VA and just rode his Harley down for a visit). As soon as he got in, I showed him my beer fridge and poured him a glass. He loved it. We went to dinner and order some Maduro Brown on tap. After his first big pull from the pint, he looked at me and said, "You ruined it!" This beer was enjoyed by all who drank it and loved by those who enjoy the style.

Prost!

Brewday Monday went great! My sparge was a little too fast as well, but overall I think it's looking good so far.

My OG was 1.049 and pitched at 68. Vigorous fermentation for about 2 days and just checked it and it's bubbling once per second now.
I'm fermenting at 68. I'll be out of town until Monday so I'll cold crash this Monday (week in primary) if gravity is around 1.01

SLS : I will be kegging my beer after cold-crashing so was wondering how long until you cracked your first beer?

Thanks again everyone for all your info and hopefully mine comes out great like yours. If so I'll post pics.

gishua said:

SLS : I will be kegging my beer after cold-crashing so was wondering how long until you cracked your first beer?

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I kegged mine as well. I did the slow carb method of setting it and forgetting it; did not fast carb at a higher psi and shake. I waited about a week+ before I tasted the first pull. I felt like it slowly changed in taste over the first few weeks.

I used 2.0vol of CO2 and think that is the right amount. I tried higher vol (i think 2.2) but found it had some bite that was not flattering.

Just saw this pic, post #71 in this thread and it appears the vol used in Maduro is 2.45-2.?? so idk. I did like mine at 2.0 tho

Hey SLS

Just tried my first beer from the keg and man is it good! I think I may have done a little something different in my process than yours b/c it's not exactly the same as Maduro but still freaking good! Thanks for the information!

Notes:
1. The color is slightly lighter than Maduro
2. The taste is a bit nuttier maybe? Not sure that taste
3. It seems lighter in body than a maduro - fine with me

I will take some pictures next to a maduro and post here - definitely brewing this one again!

Thanks all and happy brewing

gishua said:

1. The color is slightly lighter than Maduro
2. The taste is a bit nuttier maybe? Not sure that taste
3. It seems lighter in body than a maduro - fine with me

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Definitely a good beer! Looking forward to the pics. Mine was a little lighter in color too but just barely. The last time I had Maduro from tap and can, the can seemed darker but that could have just been the lighting.

As for the body, which yeast did you pitch? I see your OG was 1.049, what was your FG? This will def have an effect on body. For comparison, I used Fuller's 002, OG 53, FG 13

slsBrewing said:

Definitely a good beer! Looking forward to the pics. Mine was a little lighter in color too but just barely. The last time I had Maduro from tap and can, the can seemed darker but that could have just been the lighting.

As for the body, which yeast did you pitch? I see your OG was 1.049, what was your FG? This will def have an effect on body. For comparison, I used Fuller's 002, OG 53, FG 13

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Hey SLS,

Thanks for the info and sorry for the long wait for the reply. I have some photos below of Maduro next to the "Improved" version. (ha ha) For some reason I can't seem to get the beer as clear as I would like it as you will see in the photos.

I pitched Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale Yeast since I read in a few different threads Cigar City uses this. I wonder what the differences are with Fullers and the 1968.

The FG on that brew did not go down enough (1.015). I think I had too much volume to start the brew so the entire brew was diluted a little.

I was able to brew this again the other night and my OG was much better than last time. The latest brew had a 1.054 OG. I'll let you know the final gravity of the latest. The wort tasted great again and the fermenter is bubbling vigorously already.

Looking forward to another great beer!

gishua said:

Hey SLS,I pitched Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale Yeast since I read in a few different threads Cigar City uses this. I wonder what the differences are with Fullers and the 1968.

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Both white labs 002 and wyeast 1968 are the Fullers yeast. They are just banked and produced by two different companies. Because of this, they can drift and develop slightly different characteristics (like the chico strain wlp001 and wyeast 1056).

gishua said:

The FG on that brew did not go down enough (1.015). I think I had too much volume to start the brew so the entire brew was diluted a little.

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Per Cigar City's website the abv is 5.5% with an og of 14 (1.057), that would give you a final gravity of 1.015. I'd say you are spot on! Also, their website is now saying SRM = 32. I have it down as 24 (and I believe this forum does too) so I think they recently darkened this beer! idk?

gishua said:

I was able to brew this again the other night

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I need to brew this again too!

Good info! Thanks for the recipe!

How would we make it darker without effecting the taste? I actually don't mind it lighter and I think you are right about them darkening it. I noticed it last time I poured it, but who knows...maybe I'm just seeing mine as the new & improved Maduro SLS!

Ok I don't even remember what the original tastes like but I found a clone recipe online with some interesting notes that I thought I would share with you guys. Maybe just maybe I'll do another attempt later this year but for now here's the link for the more adventurous ones:

http://bxbeerdepot.blogspot.jp/2012/09/operation-clone-maduro.html?m=1

Hey HK - thanks for the post.

Just a quick note - I tried this a while back when I was a super newb to brewing. I may have fubbed something up during brewing, but I didn't think it tasted as close to what you have come up with, but that's just my 2 cents. If anyone tries it out let me know so I can take a shot at it 1 more time.

gishua said:

Hey HK - thanks for the post.

Just a quick note - I tried this a while back when I was a super newb to brewing. I may have fubbed something up during brewing, but I didn't think it tasted as close to what you have come up with, but that's just my 2 cents. If anyone tries it out let me know so I can take a shot at it 1 more time.

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Ahh shoot. I'll put over a small batch next month I think. But will aim for a more appealing mouthfeel. Also I recall it's roasty tones were too astringent (even after 1 month in the keg). Lack of nutty flavours too. Basically blame it all on my chocolate malt which I think tastes like burned ash and charcoal to be normal. Going to dump that and resupply.

Brewing up the recipe from this thread tomorrow and adding in Simpsons Coffee Kiln Malt. Never had the opportunity to have Maduro, but i was looking for a solid brown ale recipe and this one looked too good to pass on.

Did anyone try doing this again with 2-row instead of MO?

Well, after drinking a bottle of wine (that I made) with dinner, and reading all 11 pages. I think this beer sounds great. Now I just need to get to my lhbs to get some supplies. Oh yeah, that's only 150 miles away. But it will be first up as soon as I get the grains. Thanks for a wonderful recipe.

That Maduro is a fantastic beer. I am very lucky to be able to get all CCB's offerings, as they are only about an hour away from me. They also sell their "Maduro", "Invasion" pale ale, and "Jai Alai" IPA beers at Publix (which is a supermarket chain everywhere here in Florida)!! So it's super easy to get in my neck of the woods. If someone reports back that this Maduro clone is close to the real thing, I will brew it. I love that beer!

John

Brewed this following the recommended recipe, but I'll include exactly what I did below:

BIAB, 2G into primary.

Maris Otter - 62.2%
Crystal 60 - 13.3%
Flaked Oats - 8.9%
Victory - 6.7%
Brown Malt - 5.6%
Chocolate Malt - 3.3%

Total grain bill = 4.41lb

Mash at 151F for 90 min

Fuggles - 0.55 oz - 60 min
Fuggles - 0.40 oz - 20 min

(26.6 IBU - Tinseth)

60 min boil.

Reached OG 1.053.

Wyeast 1968

Fermented for 2 weeks , reached FG 1.019.

Bottled.

Tasting Notes:

Dark brown with moderate head - Probably a little lighter in color than the actual

Mouthfeel was a bit thinner than the original, but not off-putting. May increase flaked oats a touch next time to correct.

Roasty flavor with hints of chocolate and coffee. A touch more hop flavor than expected - will probably fade after longer conditioning. Extremely drinkable and enjoyable.

Not too far off from the original in my opinion - just need to hone it in with a few more brews to get the recipe adjusted to my system.

Looks great, I'll take one! Keep tweaking it for us and report back!

John

Looks fantastic! Did you use wyeast 1968?

TheOrlandoGuy said:

Looks fantastic! Did you use wyeast 1968?

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Yes. My mistake - pretty important bit of info to include.

Why mash low? More mouthfeel might come from higher mash temp (154 ish). Though you did end 1.019, so maybe not.

BrunDog said:

Why mash low? More mouthfeel might come from higher mash temp (154 ish). Though you did end 1.019, so maybe not.

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I missed my temp - simple as that. But I don't think that it contributed to the thin mouthfeel that much being only a few degrees off (http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/12/the-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results/). Maduro has a moderate body, so I wasn't too far off from it.

I was pretty surprised to end at 1.019, but it happens sometimes. Trying to not read into that too much.

I am brewing this today with a few adjustments, I replaced the flaked oats with golden naked oats and using Wyeast 1318 because it is what I have at the moment.

PartagasD4 said:

I am brewing this today with a few adjustments, I replaced the flaked oats with golden naked oats and using Wyeast 1318 because it is what I have at the moment.

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Cool, please let us know how it turns out!

John

How long did you cold crash and how long did you let this age before drinking? A 3.5 day primary is very short.

slsBrewing said:

I'm brewing this tomorrow. Pretty much the same recipe as HK823. This is the first time using Fullers yeast (wlp002) so I'm not sure about mash temp. Thoughts? I'm thinking 151F. Dont have room to mashout. 10 gal batch split with a friend.

Predicted OG 57, FG 14, SRM 23.8, IBU 26.6
14 lbs Maris Otter 62.2%
3 lbs Crystal 60L 13.3%
2 lbs Flaked Oats 8.9%
1.5 lbs Victory 6.7%
1.25 lbs Brown Malt 5.6%
0.75 lbs Chocolate Malt 3.3%
2.75 oz Fuggles 4.0 AA% at 60min
2.00 oz Fuggles 4.0 AA% at 20min
200 Billion wlp002 Fullers yeast from starter (in each 5 gal split)
Mash at ??? 151F for 60min. I'm expecting an 56-57 OG and hope to stop at 1.014 for ~75% Att and 5.5% abv

Kettle water profile mg/l: 66 Ca, 10 Mg, 16 Na, 43 Cl, 22 SO4. Afraid to increase Ca much more for early flocculation concerns. Mash pH target 5.44; using phos acid to adjust mash and sparge water.

Let me know your thoughts on mash temp and attenuation with Fullers yeast and beers with 13% crystal. I plan to pitch at 63F and let self rise to 67-68F max (wort temp not ambient).

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slsBrewing said:

I'm brewing this tomorrow. Pretty much the same recipe as HK823. This is the first time using Fullers yeast (wlp002) so I'm not sure about mash temp. Thoughts? I'm thinking 151F. Dont have room to mashout. 10 gal batch split with a friend.

Predicted OG 57, FG 14, SRM 23.8, IBU 26.6
14 lbs Maris Otter 62.2%
3 lbs Crystal 60L 13.3%
2 lbs Flaked Oats 8.9%
1.5 lbs Victory 6.7%
1.25 lbs Brown Malt 5.6%
0.75 lbs Chocolate Malt 3.3%
2.75 oz Fuggles 4.0 AA% at 60min
2.00 oz Fuggles 4.0 AA% at 20min
200 Billion wlp002 Fullers yeast from starter (in each 5 gal split)
Mash at ??? 151F for 60min. I'm expecting an 56-57 OG and hope to stop at 1.014 for ~75% Att and 5.5% abv

Kettle water profile mg/l: 66 Ca, 10 Mg, 16 Na, 43 Cl, 22 SO4. Afraid to increase Ca much more for early flocculation concerns. Mash pH target 5.44; using phos acid to adjust mash and sparge water.

Let me know your thoughts on mash temp and attenuation with Fullers yeast and beers with 13% crystal. I plan to pitch at 63F and let self rise to 67-68F max (wort temp not ambient).

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Did this water profile work out ok for you? What mash ph did you target?

najohns said:

How long did you cold crash and how long did you let this age before drinking? A 3.5 day primary is very short.

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Najohns, sorry for the delay. Looking back on my notes, it was 5 days but that was only to get me to the weekend to keg. If you look back at my posts in this thread I reference another thread about capturing true english char from the yeast. The gist is, u don't want to let beers brewed with English yeast sit around and "cleanup" BC that is exactly what they will do and u will lose that English character. If you use Fuller yeast (002/1968) it will finish in 4 days. Supposedly the brewery starts to lower the temp once the yeast hit 75% attenuation. Next time, I will start lowering the temp about 5F per day vs cold crashing immediately.