Heating Elements and GFCI

check. Bottom line here: install the damn GFI and get on with it. I can tell you from experience (happy story) that GFIs work with only 3 lines. My all-electric rig has a shielded cable on the thermocouple. This got in contact with the hot side and with the chassis of the brew sculpture when it was pushed in after a brew day. My brewing buddy was getting it ready for a new brew day, powered up the unit, sent juice to the PID (and heat element), and got his **** saved when the GFI immediately tripped.

install the GFI. If you buy one off Ebay or second hand, get it checked out by someone who knows their ****. period. you make homebrew because you love to, not because you want someone else to buy your kid their first beer because their dad died in some stupid accident.

I'll stop now.

Walker said:

... The key to the whole thing is a small coiling piece of metal, formed into a ring like a donut. If you take a device like this and run a wire through the center of the donut

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So, you're saying, all I need are metal donuts and wire and I can be safe. I'm going to use the Walker metal donut & wire safety mechanism on my new rig. It's all the rage.

All kidding aside, there is good info in this thread.

Nice description Walker. That should put the "need a neutral" idea to bed.

lschiavo said:

I don't know how I missed this one but I just read the whole thread. I am an electrical contractor with a degree in electrical engineering. I can understand the confusion. The first time I saw a two pole GFI, I was confused on its function and needed to do some research to understand it.

I cannot believe a licensed electrician could give such advice! Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying. How about "I dont know but I can find out for you". I use that all the time.

I noticed someone earlier mention needing only 20A but wanting to use a spa panel as the GFI is cheaper. I am planning to use a spa panel for cost reasons and feeding a subpanel from it. Then you can add any combination of standard breakers you want and have all circuits protected. This is exactly what happens inside the spa. Motors, pumps, lights etc...all fed from one GFI.

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Your observation "Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying." is refreshing.

A thought on the use of a spa panel. If one can find a spa panel that is made by the same company as your main panel, simply move that GFCI into your main panel to feed the spa panel. Then the spa panel can be mounted on the brew rig. It normally has room for several standard breakers. The GFCI, when located in the spa panel, only protects one circuit, not the panel.

Here is a diagram to sort of show a setup (click the image to see a full scale pix):

diatonic said:

So, you're saying, all I need are metal donuts and wire and I can be safe. I'm going to use the Walker metal donut & wire safety mechanism on my new rig. It's all the rage.

All kidding aside, there is good info in this thread. I know there's no cat torture, but there is some good info, so it has its redeeming qualities.

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Yeah. Get a couple slinky toys and your good to go.

lschiavo said:

Nice description Walker. That should put the "need a neutral" idea to bed.

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I'm hoping it put the idea of how many of which kind of wire to bed completely!

SPA Panels are great for GFI protection, but keep in mind you still need overcurrent protection for the wiring...

There are messages talking about moving the the SPA Panel's GFCI breaker to the main breaker panel, or buying a larger GFCI than needed because it's cheaper. A 60amp SPA panel may be cheaper than a 30amp GFCI, but then you either need to use larger wire or include the correct size breaker in the supply line.

+1 to Ohio Ed. I am going to need close to 40A in total in the box so I am using a 50A GFCI breaker in the panel. But, after entering the box and going through the power distribution block (rated for 65A), the first thing the power lines connect to is small inexpensive panel mount circuit breakers. From there, the power goes through the rest of the components on it's way to the elements.

I effectively have a subpanel built into the control box.

My solution to that was 25A fuses on each of the hot legs... I've calculated my current draw at 21A.

That's the way to do it. You just have to make sure to use wiring and components that can handle the 25A. IF something bad happens causing 24A to get pulled into the system, even though you expect only 21A, you don't want wire melting or things catching on fire.

P-J said:

Your observation "Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying." is refreshing.

A thought on the use of a spa panel. If one can find a spa panel that is made by the same company as your main panel, simply move that GFCI into your main panel to feed the spa panel. Then the spa panel can be mounted on the brew rig. It normally has room for several standard breakers. The GFCI, when located in the spa panel, only protects one circuit, not the panel.

Here is a diagram to sort of show a setup (click the image to see a full scale pix):

Click to expand...

Yeah, that is exactly what I am talking about (in a nice diagram form). As long as the wire from the GFI to the distribution block or subpanel is rated for the size of the main GFI breaker, you can split off as many circuits as you would like with inexpensive standard breakers or panel mount breakers or fuses as mentioned earlier.

diatonic said:

My solution to that was 25A fuses on each of the hot legs... I've calculated my current draw at 21A.

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You might well have it covered, but the concern would be the wire between your breaker panel and the 25amp fuses. If you have a 60 amp breaker, the wire from the breaker to the fuses has to be able to carry 60 amps... If you have a short across the supply side of the fuses, they won't protect the wire coming into them.

Again... my concern is for those that end up getting a deal on a big GFCI breaker and not thinking about overcurrent protection to their control panel.

Depending on the wire you use it can vary, but here is sort of a worse case ampacity list.
60 amp = 4 gauge wire
50 amp = 6 gauge wire
30 amp = 10 gauge wire
20 amp = 12 gauge wire

Ed

Walker said:

I am curious to know who wildwest WOULD take electrical advice from.

The OP talked to an electrician, which is the logical choice, but that ended up with him getting some bad info.

I'm an electrical engineer myself, and will be the first person to say that an electrician is a much better consultant on this kind of thing than an EE. I've talked to no less than 3 electricians about my own in-progress build.

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My approach to all safety issues is to make sure I have at least one secondary source confirming the information in my primary source. If the primary and secondary sources conflict, I keep researching until the conflict is explained to my satisfaction.

That's how this discussion started: my primary source was various threads on this site indicating that GFCI breakers are the way to go. The secondary source was the electrician, who provided conflicting information. This thread (confirmed by yet other sources, including an electrical engineer!) provided the information that explained the conflict to my satisfaction, with the result that I will use a GFCI breaker.

I think that wildwest must be assuming that someone would come to this site, just read a single post, and run with it. That person would, in wildwest's words, be a fool. However, I doubt that very many people who are that foolish live long enough to brew beer.

CorgiBrew said:

I think what wildwest must be assuming that someone would come to this site, just read a single post, and run with it. That person would, in wildwest's words, be a fool.

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True.

I would check, check, and re-check anything that involves my safety, health, or life, and I would check it with as many resources as I could (electrician tells me something, I'll check with other electricians.... a doctor tells me something, I'll check with other doctors, etc, etc.)

But to flat out say that anyone who takes advice from this forum is a fool is... well... foolish. Perhaps it was just stated poorly. I would generalize it and say that anyone who takes life-or-death advice from a single source is a fool.

+1 Walker
This is a great place for all kinds of information! But by no means should it ever be the only source anyone looks at.

More useless conjecture that you can read, research, verify, and then ignore...
If you use a spa panel, it needs to be at the wall, or use a GFI in the panel. Not at the brew rig. GFI's only protect stuff on the load side. They won't protect from a failure on the feeder from the house.

There's a reason it's on the wall in the bathroom, and not on the curling iron...

SweetSounds said:

There's a reason it's on the wall in the bathroom, and not on the curling iron...

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Well... to be the devil's advocate.... you can buy hair dryers that have GFCI built into them.

Yea, but it's on the END of the cord, not the end you drop in the boiling wort!

Wait... What?!?

SweetSounds said:

Yea, but it's on the END of the cord, not the end you drop in the boiling wort!

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Good point. I've never actually seen one, just knew they existed.

These lovely locks you see on my head need no grooming. I am just naturally this beautiful.