Experimental with First Few Brews

First off, let me say that I am certainly no expert brewer - far from it. In the past while I have been reading HBT voraciously. And learning.

Though not brain surgery, brewing does have some must-do steps and some don't-do caveats. With that in mind, might I suggest for brand-new and inexperienced brewers to work through some tried-and-true recipes or kits until they find their wings and know what can or should not be done before they change things up too much for their own liking.

I'm not saying that experimenting is a bad thing, only that in the initial stages one might not know the boundaries of what makes one brew different than another versus one that is awful. It seems a shame to waste a whole list of ingredients and possibly be discouraged from the hobby for one or two little problems.

Just my 1144 cents. (Currently my 5 yo son's favourite number)


B

I dont think that it is a "waste" of ingredients. They are more than likely just learning a new way not to brew beer. As Thomas Edison once said, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." These newbies are full of ideas and I say that we encourage them to run with them. Who knows, they could create a whole new genre of unbelievable beer.

I believe that the real trick is creating that environment that encourages them to make these "mistakes" while they are developing their passion for brewing so that they will continue this wonderful hobby for the rest of their life.

Gee, i think I've heard this someplace or another.
(like from me a million time on here)

I recommend new brewers do for their first couple kits, as is, so you can concentrate on the process of brewing, and not recipe creation..

Also kits are 'fool proof' meaning they have been vetted in terms of being good recipes (afterall a company's reputation is at stake) and therefore as long as you follow directions then your beer will turn out and so you can relax and concentrate on learning the process of brewing, AND if you make a mistake, and have a set kit, then it is easier to troubleshoot, because again you know then kit was already "perfect" to begin with.

If you want a strong beer, don't choose a normal gravity beer and decide that since you read about boosting gravity by adding more sugars to just add more sugar, choose a beet of the grav you want, just like if you wand a peach beer, don't choose a non fruit beer recipe and try to "figure out" how to add the fruit...get a kit or recipe that has everything you need in the right quantities you need. Recipes are about a BALANCE between flavors, bitterness, aromas, what have you, and until you get a few batches under your belt, and learn the fundamentals, stick with the already proven and balanced recipes. That way you don't have the extra step of trying to figure out what went wrong if the beer doesn't taste good.....if the recipe or kit already tastes good (and they would have gone through tastes tests and ALREADY before you got to them- you know they are already good, if not award winning beers, if you went with a kit or book recipe, they have been vetted) if there is something not right, you will have an easier time trying to figure out what went wrong in terms of your brewing PROCESS, not because you went off the ranch and on top of trying to actually learn to brew, you also through a bunch of crap into the equation.

Beer recipes are a balance...and if you add to one variable, that will affect other parts of it...For example if you decide to raise the gravity of a balanced beer...a beer where the hops balance out the sweetness...and you raise the maltniness of it without alaso balancing the hops, then your beer may end up being way too cloyingly sweet. Or if you just add sugar willy nilly it could become overly dry, or cidery.

At this stage you don't know enough yet, and you won't learn just by jacking a recipe o your first time out of the box. Don't start altering recipes on your first batch, or else you're gonna be posting a thread titled, "Why does my beer taste like I licked Satan's Anus after he ate a dozen coneys?" And we're not going to be able to answer you, because you've screwed with the recipe as well as maybe made a few noob brewer mistakes that typically get made, and neither you, nor us, are going to be able to figure out what went wrong. Because there's too many variables.

It's not about just slopping a bunch of stuff together, it's really about how everything works together.

My take on this is that there is a difference between true experimentation and throwing things together "willy nilly." I have noticed on here is that a lot of noobs think what they are doing is experimentation, when in reality they are just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end, and ending up making an "is my beer ruined" thread is not the same thing as experimenting.

To me, in order to experiment truly, you have to have an understanding of the fundamentals. You have to know how the process works somewhat. You have to have an understanding of how different ingredients or processes affect the final product. You may even need to know, or at least understand something about beer styles, and what goes into making one beer a Porter and another a pale ale. And where your concoction will fall on the continuoum.


To me it's like cooking or even Jazz. But going back to the cooking analogy. Coming up with a balanced and tasty recipe takes some understanding of things...just like cooking...dumping a cup of salt will more than likely ruin a recipe...so if you cook, you KNOW not to do that...it's the same with brewing...you get an idea with experience and looking at recipes, brewing and playing with software how things work..what flavors work with each other, etc...

That to me is the essence of creating...I have gotten to a point where I understand what I am doing, I get how ingredients work or don't work with each other, so I am not just throwing a bunch of stuff together to see what I get.

I have an idea of what I want it to taste like, and my challenge then is to get the right combination of ingredients to match what is in my head. That's also pretty much how I come up with new food recipes as well.

You'll get there....a LOT sooner, if you focus on the fundamentals, and get your processes in order...rather than just playing around.

Mrclasen said:

I dont think that it is a "waste" of ingredients. They are more than likely just learning a new way not to brew beer. As Thomas Edison once said, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." These newbies are full of ideas and I say that we encourage them to run with them. Who knows, they could create a whole new genre of unbelievable beer.

I believe that the real trick is creating that environment that encourages them to make these "mistakes" while they are developing their passion for brewing so that they will continue this wonderful hobby for the rest of their life.

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I'd have to agree with Revvy. Its not about stunting their enthusiasm or creativity. Getting the brewing process down is the cruicial part. Whether its an experiment or a tried and true kit, the goal should be to get the brewing part right, before you experiment with recipes. I'm sure I could make a tried and true recipe and still mess it up some how. Once you get your process down, then the sky's the limit.

R - my sentiments exactly.

M - I do not totally disagree.

In my brews I see such variation in the subtlest of process/ingredient changes. Lately I have been trying for consistency in recipes, and holy smokes, it can be tricky at times.

B

Revvy said it just about perfectly. Especially the part about true experimentation vs. a "shotgunning" approach. I'm an engineer, so it's been drilled into me for a long time that if you're changing more than one variable at a time, you've got a poorly designed experiment.

My advice is to find a kit / established recipe that you've brewed well and start tweaking it toward your personal preference one ingredient at a time instead of trying to make a "kitchen sink" recipe. I recently read a "review my recipe" post on here that included 2 malt extracts, 5 different steeping grains (one of which was smoked and two of which actually require a mini-mash), and 4 varieties of hops then aged with oak, bourbon, vanilla, and chocolate. Could this be the greatest beer ever produced? I suppose it's possible, but I highly doubt it.

Boleslaus said:

I'd have to agree with Revvy. Its not about stunting their enthusiasm or creativity. Getting the brewing process down is the cruicial part. Whether its an experiment or a tried and true kit, the goal should be to get the brewing part right, before you experiment with recipes. I'm sure I could make a tried and true recipe and still mess it up some how. Once you get your process down, then the sky's the limit.

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I understand what your saying about getting the process down. However, a new brewer is much more capable of challenging the process than an experienced brewer who does everything the exact same way every time. Who is to say that there isn't a better process out there for brewing beer that we dont know about? I am afraid that if someone is tought to do something a certain way, they may believe that it is the only correct way to brew beer. I think that brewing needs people to challange the process and I believe that the newbies can do this with the greatest ease because they have no idea what is right or wrong.

Sorry, I am just trying to play devils advocate.

Mrclasen said:

Sorry, I am just trying to play devils advocate.

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No need to be sorry - something often comes from a mere discussion.

B

The one thing that a kit can't make idiot proof is cleaning and sanitation. John Palmer wrote that good brewing is 75% cleaning. No matter how well put together and organized the kit is, if sanitizing isn't well done, the beer could be ruined.

My own thoughts on kits: A kit might take some of the pressure off for the first few brews, but it is not a guaranteed success. A lot of the kits available in my area aren't well put together always. Old liquid extract, bad yeast, etc, poorly stored hops. They don't move a lot of volume, and they sit on the shelves.

Perhaps some more experienced brewers could put together a sticky with a few basic tried and true extract recipes that would be good for a first timer. I'd be willing to try to put together one or two if there was interest.

+1 for Revvy
I am a new brewer ... (11 batches --10 all grain 1 kit) and I until I actually started brewing and reading and learning I did not even know that my favorite beer (Two Hearted Ale) was an IPA. I would have sworn up and down I was lager lover. I messed with the process and ingredients of my 1st batch (the kit) and it tasted like:
Quote:
"I licked Satan's Anus after he ate a dozen coneys" (thanks Revvy)

Then I found How to Brew by John Palmer and this site and actually made a beer I could drink. Still learning, but I know the process now and how the equipment works. Focused on that after batch 2 and now I can actually make a good beer. I also found Mr Noonan's book about lager brewing (way over my head still but getting a handle on it).

Learning the process of brewing and using simple recipes ... has made a big difference ... and that difference is Better Beer! Thanks to all the experienced brewers here who post and answer questions and help... here's to you!

Revvy said:

Throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end, and ending up making an "is my beer ruined" thread is not the same thing as experimenting.

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Exactly that. The other thing I notice that's common in those threads is people not knowing what they've done, whether it's not knowing how much of an ingredient they put in, what temperature they pitched at, what their OG was, what a hydrometer is, etc. It's difficult to fix your mistakes if you don't know what you've done in the first place.

Making beer is controlled chemistry and differing factors control that chemistry, some beyond our control. The more you can do to minimize these, the better chance you have of being successful.

Going to play devil’s advocate again.

Why can't throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end be an experiment? Sure it may be a poorly designed experiment that will probably not be replicable but it is still an experiment none the less. After all, that person would be performing an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown.

Also, I completely agree with everyone that just throwing stuff in bucket and seeing what you get at the end is more often than not going to be the least effective and efficient way to formulate a recipe that produces a beer with the characteristics that they desire.

Mrclasen said:

Going to play devil’s advocate again.

Why can't throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end be an experiment? Sure it may be a poorly designed experiment that will probably not be replicable but it is still an experiment none the less. After all, that person would be performing an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown.

Also, I completely agree with everyone that just throwing stuff in bucket and seeing what you get at the end is more often than not going to be the least effective and efficient way to formulate a recipe that produces a beer with the characteristics that they desire.

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It's not a real experiment for the same reason that a kid mixing everything in their chemistry kit together isn't a real experiment. The scientific definition of an experiment is an excercise which tests a hypothesis. "Let's see what happens" isn't a hypothesis. A good brewing hypothesis would be "replacing the chocolate malt in this porter recipe with roasted barley will yield more of the coffee like flavors I like" or "fermenting this hefe a few degrees cooler will knock back some of the banana flavors that were too prominent in the last version."

As Revvy mentioned, brewing is pretty much like cooking. You wouldn't make chicken soup by throwing a chicken in some water and then emptying your entire spice rack into the pot. You'd ask your grandma to show you how. Then you might try some other people's chicken soup and find that you like yours with more rosemary. Then maybe one day you'll have some marinara with fennel and decide that the fennel flavor would be aces in your soup so you give that a shot. It may take you years to figure out how to make the ultimate chicken soup in your eyes, but you'll definitely figure it out quicker than if you wasted months on end trying to pick out the flavors you like from a cacophony of flavors that probably never should have been there in the first place.

'a cacophony of flavors'

nice, i like it

I'm pretty new to this but I do have a background in food service. I've got 3 extract w/grains batches under my belt. It seemed obvious to me that I should just brew the kits as is and concentrate on process and fundementals.

My beers have all come out great and by taking good notes along the way I was able to improve my process each time as well as gain some level of familiarity with the ingrediants and the flavors they impart.

Now as I'm getting ready to delve into recipe creation I have a better understanding of how the grains, hops, and yeast work together. I've decided to further refine my ingrediant knowlege by working up some Single Malt and Single Hop recipes so that I can understand exactly what each individual piece brings to the finished product and more easily tailor the brew to my taste.

It will vary from person to person how much they need to brew before they feel confident in their process and have enough understanding of the ingredients. It may be a couple of batches, it may be 50 batches.

Everybody has a different tolerance level for risk. If you are very risk averse in your brewing then stick to known recipes a lot longer. If you are the type that would rather do something on your own and know that failing is not something that will deter you.. I say go for it.

Of course, most people don't know themselves very well so unless you are damn sure about how you handle failure follow Revvy's advice.

anyhow that's my opinion for what it's worth

gr8shandini said:

It's not a real experiment for the same reason that a kid mixing everything in their chemistry kit together isn't a real experiment. The scientific definition of an experiment is an excercise which tests a hypothesis. "Let's see what happens" isn't a hypothesis. A good brewing hypothesis would be "replacing the chocolate malt in this porter recipe with roasted barley will yield more of the coffee like flavors I like" or "fermenting this hefe a few degrees cooler will knock back some of the banana flavors that were too prominent in the last version."

As Revvy mentioned, brewing is pretty much like cooking. You wouldn't make chicken soup by throwing a chicken in some water and then emptying your entire spice rack into the pot. You'd ask your grandma to show you how. Then you might try some other people's chicken soup and find that you like yours with more rosemary. Then maybe one day you'll have some marinara with fennel and decide that the fennel flavor would be aces in your soup so you give that a shot. It may take you years to figure out how to make the ultimate chicken soup in your eyes, but you'll definitely figure it out quicker than if you wasted months on end trying to pick out the flavors you like from a cacophony of flavors that probably never should have been there in the first place.

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I agree. Experimenting and doing something blindly are two different things. There is no problem experimenting, but you need to know how to sanitize and at what temperature enzymes convert. There may be different ways to do things, but there are some absolute necessities that need to be completed to make "beer". Also agree about the definition of an experiment. Throwing things in a pot is not an experiment, so maybe you should use a different word.

Revvy makes great sense. I do not have the money to throw away. II used kits to learn the process (and took a brewing class at my LHBS). I did experiment with the kits by simply changing out the yeast, hops and fermentation temps.

I have brewed my own recipes for the last 4 brews. They are not totally my recipes but tweaked from some other recipes I found online. I have tweaked the hops and yeast strains mostly.

Had some issues, color off on some, ABV way low on one and way high on another. All drinkable and enjoyable brews. I didn't go way out on a limb, like cooking find a recipe online and make it your own. I make some killer slaw by tweaking Robert Irvin's Contractor Slaw.

If you do a few kits and feel confident with the process, start tweaking then get into your own creations. I like to research the grains and hops and research how they will work in a brew. Just throwing ingredients together and hoping you get beer is a waste of time and money.

How many times do we see "is mt beer infected?" or "Oh crap forgot to add the hops" it is all process. If you do not have them down, you are risking making really bad beer and then getting discouraged. May be cheaper to run to the store and grab a 6 pack.