Question about yeast vs. flavor

So it seems I've been spending quite a bit of time lately reading these threads about yeast. Trying to absorb information and whatnot. I admit that I fell into the typical stereotype that since there are more varieties of liquid yeast available than there are of dry yeasts, then they must be superior to dry.

So....

Now that I've moved beyond that mentality, I have a question that needs addressing. When I first started brewing, it was impressed upon me that the yeast will impart a flavor into the beer that is distinct from other yeasts. Meaning, you use certain types of yeast profiles to achieve specific flavors. I see a lot of people use Nottingham and S-05, and in their description, it seems that they have an almost nonexistent specific flavor so that the malt profile comes through. Which leaves me to wonder, how much flavor does the yeast typically impart, or is that a subjective measure? When it comes to flavors, I consider myself a noob. I enjoy the flavor of the beers that I brew, but if I can just use Notty for the majority of my beers, then I'd love to save the money, but I don't want to waste a batch of brew by using the wrong yeast.

Thanks all.

I use dry yeast for 99% of my beers, for basic ales I use safale 05, for more british styles I us safale 04 and for basic lagers I use saflager..

The only time I use liquid yeast is if I am making a beer where the yeast drives the style, where certain flavor characteristics are derived from the yeast, such as phenols.

Like Belgian beers, where you get spicy/peppery flavors from the yeast and higher temp fermentation. Or let's say a wheat beer (needing a lowly flocculant yest) or a Kholsch, where the style of the beer uses a specific yeast strain that is un available in dry form.

You really should look through the various descriptions of the liquid yeasts on their websites to look into the specific flavor characteristics of those non-neutral (glad you got over your bias ) yeasts.

Most of them will give you specific flavor info...

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain.cfm

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_strains.html#ALE_YEAST

Hope this helps.

jmendez29 said:

So it seems I've been spending quite a bit of time lately reading these threads about yeast. Trying to absorb information and whatnot. I admit that I fell into the typical stereotype that since there are more varieties of liquid yeast available than there are of dry yeasts, then they must be superior to dry.

So....

Now that I've moved beyond that mentality, I have a question that needs addressing. When I first started brewing, it was impressed upon me that the yeast will impart a flavor into the beer that is distinct from other yeasts. Meaning, you use certain types of yeast profiles to achieve specific flavors. I see a lot of people use Nottingham and S-05, and in their description, it seems that they have an almost nonexistent specific flavor so that the malt profile comes through. Which leaves me to wonder, how much flavor does the yeast typically impart, or is that a subjective measure? When it comes to flavors, I consider myself a noob. I enjoy the flavor of the beers that I brew, but if I can just use Notty for the majority of my beers, then I'd love to save the money, but I don't want to waste a batch of brew by using the wrong yeast.

Thanks all.

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Yeast provides more flavor than any other ingredient in beer. Yeast are what make beer taste like beer. Unhopped beers (gruit) still taste like beer. Beers brewed with sorghum still taste like beer. You can't make something that tastes like beer without brewing yeast.

As evidence, consider the failed experiments to brew non-alcoholic beer with yeasts which ferment wort but do not produce ethanol (or the esters characteristic of beer flavor) which produce a product which does not taste like beer but something like hopped iced tea.

Something like the chico strain (1056, S05) may not produce a single ester in excess, but they provide an abundance of flavor that is characteristic of how ale tastes.

A yeast like 3068 will do the same and also add a distinctive banana and clove flavors that you can pick out.

Bacteria and wild yeast do not produce the same esters and so predictably lambic, while enjoyable, does not really taste like "beer".

Revvy said:

I use dry yeast for 99% of my beers, for basic ales I use safale 05, for more british styles I us safale 04 and for basic lagers I use saflager..

The only time I use liquid yeast is if I am making a beer where the yeast drives the style, where certain flavor characteristics are derived from the yeast, such as phenols.

Like Belgian beers, where you get spicy/peppery flavors from the yeast and higher temp fermentation. Or let's say a wheat beer (needing a lowly flocculant yest) or a Kholsch, where the style of the beer uses a specific yeast strain that is un available in dry form.

Hope this helps.

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Speaking in general terms, for most beers like, say, a Pale Ale or a Brown Ale, its fine to use whatever general purpose yeast I prefer to achieve the flavor that I like. And for specific styles like the Kolsch and Belgians, like you mentioned, or a Lambic with wild yeast strains, the type of yeast is very important to the final taste in defining the beer. Do I have this right? Because if not, then I'm even more confused than before.

As for getting over my bias of dry yeast, I would have to thank you for that. I read quite a few of your posts and while they do seem very repetitive (lots of guidance to us noobs) they are also very helpful.

remilard said:

Yeast provides more flavor than any other ingredient in beer. Yeast are what make beer taste like beer. Unhopped beers (gruit) still taste like beer. Beers brewed with sorghum still taste like beer. You can't make something that tastes like beer without brewing yeast.

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Not to imply that I was planning on using yeast for bread or for any purpose other than beer. But as for flavors, I guess I feel like I'm getting conflicting information. Surprisingly, it seems like the yeast manufacturer is downplaying the importance of the flavor to the beer. Weird.

I used my first packet of dry yeast on my Irish Red. The recommended yeast was Nottingham and that is what prompted the research into dry yeasts. I can't say that I've checked it out extensively so I'll just have to keep reading up on it some more. But I also need to start learning about the different grains and how they affect the flavor.

Thanks a bunch.

Nottingham and S-05

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These are the yeasts of choice when you don't want any yeast-generated flavors. That makes them good for heavily-hopped beers and most dark beers. Since HBT is aswarm with hop-heads and cheap-skates, those yeasts are popular.

jmendez29 said:

Speaking in general terms, for most beers like, say, a Pale Ale or a Brown Ale, its fine to use whatever general purpose yeast I prefer to achieve the flavor that I like. And for specific styles like the Kolsch and Belgians, like you mentioned, or a Lambic with wild yeast strains, the type of yeast is very important to the final taste in defining the beer. Do I have this right? Because if not, then I'm even more confused than before.

Click to expand...

Yes and if you click through the various yeasts in the links I posted it talks about the flavor characteristics.

For example;

WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast
This famous German yeast is a strain used in the production of traditional, authentic wheat beers. It produces the banana and clove nose traditionally associated with German wheat beers and leaves the desired cloudy look of traditional German wheat beers.

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Or

WLP570 Belgian Golden Ale Yeast
From East Flanders, versatile yeast that can produce light Belgian ales to high gravity Belgian beers (12% ABV). A combination of fruitiness and phenolic characteristics dominate the flavor profile. Some sulfur is produced during fermentation, which will dissipate following the end of fermentation.

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Wyeast as well.

YEAST STRAIN: 3724 | Belgian Saison™


Classic farmhouse ale yeast. Spicy and complex aromatics including bubble gum. Very tart and dry on palate with mild fruit. Finishes crisp and mildly acidic. Benefits from elevated fermentation temperatures. This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 sg. Fermentation will eventually finish, given time and warm temperatures.

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I use US -05 for all my brews, The only way i would change is if i decided to do a lager or a heffe. Till then, I will continue to be a cheap skate. I wash my own yeast so, After 10x i figure it have used it enough and start over.

Ok, thanks, Revvy. You continue to be the respected ambassador to the brewing community that I believe you to be. I have already started reading the descriptions of the yeasts. I do have lots of questions about terminology and definitions, likewise I need to start learning what people mean by phenols and esters and the like and how to distinquish them from other flavors. But those are questions for later when I can start asking the appropriate questions.

david_42 said:

Since HBT is aswarm with hop-heads and cheap-skates, those yeasts are popular.

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Cheap skates. That's funny.

jmendez29 said:

Cheap skates. That's funny.

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But true, I think! I mean, I'll spend $500 on a brew build easy. But $8 for a pack of yeast? Not hardly! So when I do buy liquid yeast, I culture it and keep it around for a long time. I probably get 10 brews out of one package of liquid yeast.

I use liquid yeast often, but I use dry yeast too. I have several strains of yeast right now in my fridge, from lager strains to ale strains and will use them. I like to use different strains of yeast, depending on what I'm making.

Some yeast strains, like the dry S05 is a good "all purpose" yeast but there are many other fine strains, too!

YooperBrew said:

But true, I think! I mean, I'll spend $500 on a brew build easy. But $8 for a pack of yeast? Not hardly! So when I do buy liquid yeast, I culture it and keep it around for a long time. I probably get 10 brews out of one package of liquid yeast.

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Yeah, but you end up saving 80 bucks that you can then use for more brew stuff! It's a cyclical thing

david_42 said:

These are the yeasts of choice when you don't want any yeast-generated flavors. That makes them good for heavily-hopped beers and most dark beers. Since HBT is aswarm with hop-heads and cheap-skates, those yeasts are popular.

Click to expand...

So close to spitting coffee all over my keyboard....thanks.

jmendez29 said:

Speaking in general terms, for most beers like, say, a Pale Ale or a Brown Ale, its fine to use whatever general purpose yeast I prefer to achieve the flavor that I like. And for specific styles like the Kolsch and Belgians, like you mentioned, or a Lambic with wild yeast strains, the type of yeast is very important to the final taste in defining the beer. Do I have this right? Because if not, then I'm even more confused than before.

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The strain selected has as much impact on the flavor as any other. You can brew a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone, using exactly the grist and hops they do. But if you pitch Wyeast #3522 (Belgian Ardennes) instead of #1056 (American Ale), you're going to get a vastly different beer.

Tell you what: Try it. Brew a basic grist. I like to use Brown Ale for this experiment. You'll be using 5 gallons and splitting it in half.

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 6.00
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.96
Anticipated SRM: 19.7
Anticipated IBU: 28.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.5 0.75 lbs. Crystal 77L UK 1.035 75
4.2 0.25 lbs. Chocolate Malt UK 1.034 475
83.3 5.00 lbs. Briess DME- Gold USA 1.043 8

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Willamette Pellet 5.00 24.6 60 min.
0.50 oz. Willamette Pellet 5.00 4.1 20 min.
0.50 oz. Willamette Pellet 5.00 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

Here's where things change. Split the bitter wort into two fermenters. Pitch one with S-05 - a "clean" American Ale yeast, equivalent to Wyeast #1056 (in fact, I'd pitch a smack-pack of 1056 instead of an 11g packet of S-05; 11g of dry yeast in 2.5 gallons is WAY too much). Pitch the other with a smack-pack of Wyeast #3522 or #3787.

Bottle, condition, and drink side by side. Preferably, enlist someone to give you the samples "blind". You'll be shocked at the difference.

Not to imply that I was planning on using yeast for bread or for any purpose other than beer.

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Dude - use your spent brewing yeast for bread. It is, as the kids today so piquantly put it, "Da bomb".

Bob

Dude - use your spent brewing yeast for bread. It is, as the kids today so piquantly put it, "Da bomb".

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...just make sure you have one of them high-flow toilets so you can flush 'Da Bomb' afterwards!

- M

On the contrary, I find it makes the bread rise spectacularly, making a light and fluffy loaf. And it provides a very pleasant "beer" flavor to the bread.

Bob

Prosted....

Dave

jmendez29 said:

Not to imply that I was planning on using yeast for bread or for any purpose other than beer. But as for flavors, I guess I feel like I'm getting conflicting information. Surprisingly, it seems like the yeast manufacturer is downplaying the importance of the flavor to the beer. Weird.

I used my first packet of dry yeast on my Irish Red. The recommended yeast was Nottingham and that is what prompted the research into dry yeasts. I can't say that I've checked it out extensively so I'll just have to keep reading up on it some more. But I also need to start learning about the different grains and how they affect the flavor.

Thanks a bunch.

Click to expand...

Here is the way I see it.

Take a normal lager yeast, eg W 34/70, this will not really produce flavors that stick out to you as coming from the yeast but they do produce some flavors which taste to you like "beer".

Some other lager yeast will produce some other stuff, maybe a lot of sulfur that sticks out, but isn't really required for something to taste like "beer".

A neutral ale yeast, like chico, produces the same stuff plus some other stuff you can't really pick out that tastes like "ale". Another ale yeast might produce things you can pick out like iso amyl acetate (banana).

So if something just produces the normal beer or ale character, we say it is a neutral yeast or that it doesn't produce a strong yeast character many it doesn't have anything idiosyncratic, it just has the flavor that every yeast has.

But to say that nottingham produces no flavor?

See if you can get some S. Ludwigii and ferment a batch with it. That will open your eyes to how much flavor something like nottingham contributes.