Going for a dry apple wine with honey, looking for advice

Heres a recipe i'm working on, i've never made my own wine recipe so i'm hoping you guys could pick it apart and tell me what is and isnt necessary.

I ordered quality wildflower honey and i'll be getting the best apple juice I can find. I'm looking to make a dry apple wine with a killer aroma. I'll be adding honey until I hit my gravity numbers

What I have so far:
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Honeycrisp Cyser (Recipe updated)

Predicted stats:
OG ~1.080-1.085
FG ~0.990
ABV ~11.81-12.47%
Yeast- Lalvin 71B-112

Fermentables:
-6 Gallons 100% Honey Crisp Apple Juice/cider (No preservatives or additives) (~1.040-1.050 gravity)
~6 pounds of Wildflower Honey (1 pound of honey in 1 gallon of water = +1.035 gravity) (however much it takes to reach desired gravity)

Extras:
2 Lalvin 71B-112 Yeast
X Yeast Nutrient (Based on staggered schedule/needs)
X acid blend (to hit 3.3-3.5ph)
X Tannin to taste (if necessary)
10 tsp pectic enzyme
6 Campden tablets pre fermentation or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite
6 Campden tablets pre bottling or or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite


*Honey is used instead of sugar until gravity target of 1.080-1.085 is reached

Primary fermenter: Wine bucket
Day (-1) (0 hours)
-Stir together honey and apple juice.
-Add crushed campden tablets (or potassium metabisulphite) and acid blend(if necessary) until PH is around 3.5. Stir and cover with a towel, leave for 24 hours.
Day 0 (24 hours later)
-Make sure PH is around the 3.5 range, and add 5g Fermaid-O and 1g DAP (Yeast nutrient), stir and pitch re-hydrated yeast
Day 1, 3, 5, 7, 8
-Stir and then de-gas
Day 2, 4, 6
-Gentrly stir and add 5g Fermaid-O and 1g DAP (Yeast nutrient)
*when degassing and adding nutrients do so slowly to avoid foaming

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/improve-mead-staggered-nutrient-additions/





Secondary Fermenter: 6.0 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Do not stir, aerate or de-gas
-Rack to a new carboy every 60 days, or whenever sediment/lees becomes ¼” thick
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-Bottle when NO lees appears after 60 days and the cyser is clear
-When ready add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite (if necessary) then filter wine and rack into bottles.

(*Recipe adjusted from original)

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Is the yeast nutrient necessary? Is the tannin necessary? Is that enough Campden? Do my timelines look OK?

I'm looking to make a good summer wine; which is when I anticipate it will be drinkable. I'm bottling my first 3 wines in about 2 weeks but this is my first original recipe.

Or maybe this entire idea is horrible and I ought to just use my honey for a small batch of mead https://morewinemaking.com/products/wildflower-honey-6-lbs.html
^Thats the honey I ordered
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Question #2: Should I use apple cider or apple juice? I can probably go get fresh honeycrisp apple cider because its harvest season in minnesota; would that be a good choice?

Also my de-gassing is done with a mechanical vacuum pump and my filtration is with this method:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/diy-wine-filtering.html

You are basically making a cyser (mead with apples), I've used honey to sweeten many batches of fruit wine; the honey will give it more body and mouthfeel than cane sugar can, but it will also take longer to age and become a great wine.

The best advice that I can give you is : Don't get caught up in the numbers, I've seen plenty of wine makers going nuts over the PH, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to get your numbers in the ballpark of what the books say, but if you're slightly off, taste the wine, if it tastes good, leave it alone, if your PH is 3.4 or 3.3 don't try to adjust it.

The following was taken from Wine Makers Mag

Tart apples also have a normal sugar level, but they have a higher acid level, giving them a more “tart” overall flavor. Common varieties in this category are Honeycrisp, Gravenstein, Granny Smith, McIntosh, Northern Spy, Winesap, Rome, Empire, Braeburn, and Liberty.

Click to expand...

you might have plenty of acidity.

The one thing that I want to mention is that if you are looking for the honey to impart a great honey taste to the wine/cyser, every time that I used honey in the hopes of getting a hint of honey, the wine would be everything that I wanted when I sampled the wine soon after fermentation was complete, but after a little time aging, you wouldn't have any idea that I used honey.

I wouldn't add the yeast nutrient until after the yeast has started to ferment, the nitrogen in yeast nutrients (unless you're using Fermaid O, the organic source of nitrogen will not harm the "young" yeast, I would use 71B-1122 yeast, not only does it come highly recommended by Scott Labs, 71B-1122 will produce a fruity yet fresh character, and, it has the ability to metabolize high amounts (20% to 40%) of malic acid, this results in a rounder, smoother, more aromatic wine.

I would also use Fermaid K for your yeast nutrient, it is a much more "complete" nutrient that provides all of the essential vitamins and nutrients that the yeast needs to maintain cellular growth, but just as important as using a great yeast nutrient like Fermaid K is how you will add it, you need to be prepared to follow a "nutrient program", I add yeast nutrient in 2 or 3 applications, this will help to avoid stressed yeast.

Remember, the yeast you select can bring out various characteristics that you'd like, if you haven't, I would download the Scott labs Fermentation handbook - click here, and the Cider handbook, you'd be surprised at how important selecting the right yeast is... that said, make sure that you hydrate your yeast, as with beer, it's very important to hydrate the yeast, the following was taken from the fermentation Handbook -

Proper yeast rehydration is one of the most important steps
to help ensure a strong and healthy fermentation

Click to expand...

If you are going to use the store bought cider, I don't think that you need to add the campden/potassium metabisulfite pre fermentation, this is done when using fresh fruit to suppress the wild yeast that lives on the skin, but, it won't hurt it if you add it.

Don't try to degass it by stirring it, the wine will naturally degas as it ages.

Don't get caught up in the timeline, wine doesn't look at a calendar, the higher the ABV% the longer it will take to age, I think that starting at 1.085% is probably just about as far as I would go, the apple flavor can easily be lost at higher abv%, I had an apple wine that I wanted to be a little bit stronger....it took 2 years before I could drink it, it was so "hot" that we couldn't even taste any apple flavor.

I hope that this helps.

Thank you so much for all the information!

I entirely understand how important the proper yeast strain is; I learned that when I brewed a hefe-weizen that turned out great.

Thank you for the info on PH

With the honey i'm not looking as much for flavor; more for the aroma. I felt the idea of adding sugar for my alcohol would be boring; especially if there was an option that could add even just a little more complexity.

For my apple juice/cider i'm planning on going to a local orchard to grab it; if that doesnt work then i'll resort to getting it from a store.

Thank you for the advice on the ABV. I'll likely drop it down to 10-11% abv; especially since i'm using expensive honey. That way its still potent like wine should be; but it sill has the noticable complexity of flavors and aromas i'm hoping for.

It helps a lot, thank you very much! Thats some pretty kickass advice

I'll adjust my recipe once I get a chance to do my research on nutrient timelines and the products you suggested; it should be within a few days; thursday at the latest. Lots of tests to study for this week



Edit: also, my method of degassing would be through using a mechanical vacuum pump with one of those carboy caps for hose outlets; do you have any information regarding this method?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdlt45LRBbY[/ame]

Don't degas the cyser, EXCEPT in primary to release excess co2. You should be done with that in just a few days. Stir the cyser once or twice a day during active fermention. The reason to degas then is that c02 is poisonous to yeast, so stirring helps to release any trapped c02 that doesn't easily escape the airlock.

Nutrients are generally done at intervals by the SG, like at 2/3 sugar break, etc. and not by days.

I agree with not adding acid blend, except for taste. You may have plenty of acidity already depending on the acidity of your apple juice.

Once you are ready to rack from the bucket, at an SG of under 1.020 or so, rack to the proper sized carboy (a 6 gallon sized one, and not a 6.5 gallon one), and reduce headspace by topping up the cyser. Don't continue to stir or aerate at all.

I normally use sulfites at every other racking and at bottling, but you can use less in cysers than most wine mead seems to not oxidize quite as easily as with wine.

Thank you both for the advice!

I'm going to work on adjusting my recipe; i'll edit it in my original post and i'll either edit this post to summarize changes in this post or do a new post

Ok so heres what I have so far: (Recipe updated)

Honeycrisp Cyser

Predicted stats:
OG ~1.080-1.085
FG ~0.990
ABV ~11.81-12.47%
Yeast- Lalvin 71B-112

Fermentables:
-6 Gallons 100% Honey Crisp Apple Juice/cider (No preservatives or additives) (~1.040-1.050 gravity)
~6 pounds of Wildflower Honey (1 pound of honey in 1 gallon of water = +1.035 gravity) (however much it takes to reach desired gravity)

Extras:
2 Lalvin 71B-112 Yeast
X Yeast Nutrient (Based on staggered schedule/needs)
X acid blend (to hit 3.3-3.5ph)
X Tannin to taste (if necessary)
10 tsp pectic enzyme
6 Campden tablets pre fermentation or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite
6 Campden tablets pre bottling or or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite


*Honey is used instead of sugar until gravity target of 1.080-1.085 is reached

Primary fermenter: Wine bucket
Day (-1) (0 hours)
-Stir together honey and apple juice.
-Add crushed campden tablets (or potassium metabisulphite) and acid blend(if necessary) until PH is around 3.5. Stir and cover with a towel, leave for 24 hours.
Day 0 (24 hours later)
-Make sure PH is around the 3.5 range, and add 5g Fermaid-O and 1g DAP (Yeast nutrient), stir and pitch re-hydrated yeast
Day 1, 3, 5, 7, 8
-Stir and then de-gas
Day 2, 4, 6
-Gentrly stir and add 5g Fermaid-O and 1g DAP (Yeast nutrient)
*when degassing and adding nutrients do so slowly to avoid foaming

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/improve-mead-staggered-nutrient-additions/





Secondary Fermenter: 6.0 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Do not stir, aerate or de-gas
-Rack to a new carboy every 60 days, or whenever sediment/lees becomes ¼” thick
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-Bottle when NO lees appears after 60 days and the cyser is clear
-When ready add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite (if necessary) then filter wine and rack into bottles.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

New questions:
1. My beers kick ass when I do yeast starters; would it be reasonable to do a yeast starter for this recipe?
2. Should I de-gas one last time after transferring from my primary fermentor (under 1.020 gravity) to my secondary fermentor?

Yeast nutrient schedule is bolded, does that look reasonable?

As soon as my honey arrives in the mail i'm going to run to an orchard and get some fresh honeycrisp cider; so this recipe should be in the works within 7 days

Also i keep editing this post as! Sorry if that causes confusion hah

Gemadrken said:

Secondary Fermenter: 6.5 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Consider adding sulfites
-Rack into properly sized carboy, top up to reduce head space
-No more stirring or aerating
-De-gas wine again and let sit for 3-6 months; changing air lock water once a month.
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-After 3-6 months add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite then filter wine and rack into bottles.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

New questions:
1. My beers kick ass when I do yeast starters; would it be reasonable to do a yeast starter for this recipe?
2. Should I de-gas one last time after transferring from my primary fermentor (under 1.020 gravity) to my secondary fermentor?

Also i'll most likely use "LD carlson yeast energizer" instead of Fermaid K because they seem to be the "same thing."

LD Carlson Yeast Energizer: Used to stimulate fermentation in wine and beer. Use 1/4 teaspoon per gallon in beer to jump start a slow/stuck fermentation. Use 1/2 teaspoon per gallon in wine must. Contains Diammonium phosphate, yeast hulls, magnesium sulphate, and Vitamin B Complex.

Fermaid K:a blended complex yeast nutrient that supplies ammonia salts (DAP), free amino acids (organic nitrogen derived from inactivated yeast), sterols, unsaturated fatty acids, key nutrients (magnesium sulfate, thiamin, folic acid, niacin, biotin, calcium pantothenate) and inactive yeast

^
-thiamin, folic acid, niacin, biotin = B vitamins
-inactive yeast = yeast hulls?
-largely similar

I'm considering this substitution because my local brew shop doesn't carry Fermaid.

That being said i'm ordering some fermaid anyway; but i'll likely use the Carlson one




As soon as my honey arrives in the mail i'm going to run to an orchard and get some fresh honeycrisp cider; so this recipe should be in the works within 7 days

Click to expand...

You said here:
Secondary Fermenter: 6.5 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Consider adding sulfites
-Rack into properly sized carboy, top up to reduce head space
-No more stirring or aerating
-De-gas wine again and let sit for 3-6 months; changing air lock water once a month.
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-After 3-6 months add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite then filter wine and rack into bottles.

You want to rack to a 6 gallon carboy here, if you're making 6 gallons of cyser, and you don't need sulfites here. You do NOT want to aerate/degas at this point, no way. You will ruin your cyser if you keep wanting to do this.

You will need to rack to a new carboy every 60 days or so, or when you have lees (sediment) 1/4" thick or anytime there are lees that can cause an issue. You can add sulfite at that time. Three to six months is a very optimistic timeline for bottling. You want to bottle when you have NO lees at all falling after at least 60 days in a new carboy AND the cyser is so clear you can read a newspaper through it. It might be 6 months; it might not.

Answering questions:
1. NO. Pitch the proper amount of dry yeast. Dry yeast has sterol reserves and you want to use the proper amount (could be one package) and not do a starter.

2. No, absolutely not.

Yooper said:

You said here:
Secondary Fermenter: 6.5 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Consider adding sulfites
-Rack into properly sized carboy, top up to reduce head space
-No more stirring or aerating
-De-gas wine again and let sit for 3-6 months; changing air lock water once a month.
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-After 3-6 months add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite then filter wine and rack into bottles.

You want to rack to a 6 gallon carboy here, if you're making 6 gallons of cyser, and you don't need sulfites here. You do NOT want to aerate/degas at this point, no way. You will ruin your cyser if you keep wanting to do this.

You will need to rack to a new carboy every 60 days or so, or when you have lees (sediment) 1/4" thick or anytime there are lees that can cause an issue. You can add sulfite at that time. Three to six months is a very optimistic timeline for bottling. You want to bottle when you have NO lees at all falling after at least 60 days in a new carboy AND the cyser is so clear you can read a newspaper through it. It might be 6 months; it might not.

Answering questions:
1. NO. Pitch the proper amount of dry yeast. Dry yeast has sterol reserves and you want to use the proper amount (could be one package) and not do a starter.

2. No, absolutely not.

Click to expand...

Awesome thank you very much!

I'm a very patient person, i'll wait as long as I need for the results i'm looking for

I'll adjust my recipe.

I really appreciate all the help! I'm 22 y/o and i'm just trying to get as ahead of the game as possible. Your advice will not go to waste

Edit:
I notice you say I should bottle when no sediment/lees appears and the wine is so clear I could read a news paper through it; I have everything on hand for the following:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/diy-wine-filtering.html

Does this make any difference? Should I use it for this cyser? If I do use it should I bottle sooner? Bottle at the same time?

My beer/wine stash is going to be pretty hefty here in about a month; i'll have no problem waiting as long as I need for this recipe to turn out the best it can

Edit 2:
I updated my current recipe everywhere it was posted in this thread

I haven't found filtering necessary. I have some apple wine mead that I bottled after about a year and numerous rackings. It is crystal clear in the bottle.

The thing with filtering is that you have to have a clear product before filtering because any sediment and stuff will clog up the pads. It will take a wine with a bit of a haze to polished, but it won't clear a wine that actually has sediment in it or that is still dropping lees.

Your cyser should clear just fine on its own. Only when it's not dropping any lees and it's still murky would you need finings (not filtering).

I started these 2 recipes today, a Cyser and an Apple Wine.

The cider had a gravity of 1.0525; i bumped both up to 1.085

It was fresh cider from a local orchard. I'm not exactly sure what to expect but these are my first 2 original wine type recipes; but hey you gotta start somewhere. I added campden tablets (i'll probably just use P-M-Sulphite in the future) and i'll be adding 2 packs of yeast to each tomorrow night.

I might add some tannin; but maybe i wont.

These will be great for side by side comparisons on boosting with sugar vs boosting with honey.
-------------------------------------------------------
Apple Cyser

Predicted stats:
OG ~1.085
FG ~0.990
ABV ~12.47%
Yeast- Lalvin 71B-1122
Fresh Apple Cider gravity-1.0525 (This will be different every time)

Fermentables:
-6 Gallons 100% Honey Crisp Apple Juice/cider (No preservatives or additives) (~1.040-1.050 gravity)
~6 pounds of Wildflower Honey (1 pound of honey in 1 gallon of water = +1.035 gravity) (however much it takes to reach desired gravity)

Extras:
2 Lalvin 71B-112 Yeast
X Yeast Nutrient (Based on staggered schedule/needs)
X Tannin to taste (if necessary)
3 tsp pectic enzyme
6 Campden tablets pre fermentation or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite
6 Campden tablets pre bottling or or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite


*Honey is used instead of sugar until gravity target of 1.085 is reached

Primary fermenter: Wine bucket
Day (-1) (0 hours)
-Stir together honey and apple juice.
-Add crushed campden tablets (or potassium metabisulphite) and acid blend(if necessary) until PH is around 3.5. Stir and cover with a towel, leave for 24 hours.
Day 0 (24 hours later)
-Make sure PH is around the 3.5 range, and add 5g Fermaid-O (Yeast nutrient), stir and pitch re-hydrated yeast
Day 1, 3, 5, 7, 8
-Stir and then de-gas
Day 2, 4, 6
-Gentrly stir and add 5g Fermaid-O (Yeast nutrient)
*when degassing and adding nutrients do so slowly to avoid foaming

Secondary Fermenter: 6.0 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Do not stir, aerate or de-gas
-Rack to a new carboy every 60 days, or whenever sediment/lees becomes ¼” thick
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-Bottle when NO lees appears after 60 days and the cyser is clear
-When ready add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite (if necessary) then filter wine and rack into bottles.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apple Wine

Predicted stats:
OG ~1.085
FG ~0.990
ABV ~12.47%
Yeast- Lalvin 71B-1118 x2 packs
Cider original gravity: 1.0525 (will be different every time)

Fermentables:
-6 Gallons 100% Honey Crisp Apple Juice/cider (No preservatives or additives) (~1.040-1.050 gravity)
~X lbs. Corn Sugar; (1 pound of corn sugar in 1 gallon of water = +1.046 gravity) (however much it takes to reach desired gravity)

Extras:
2 Lalvin 71B-1118 Yeast
X Yeast Nutrient (Based on staggered schedule/needs)
X acid blend (to hit 3.3-3.5ph)
X Tannin to taste (if necessary)
2.5 tsp pectic enzyme
6 Campden tablets pre fermentation or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite
6 Campden tablets pre bottling or or 1/16 tsp/gallon potassium metabisulphite



Primary fermenter: Wine bucket
Day (-1) (0 hours)
-Stir together sugar and apple juice.
-Add crushed campden tablets (or potassium metabisulphite) and acid blend(if necessary) until PH is around 3.5. Stir and cover with a towel, leave for 24 hours.
Day 0 (24 hours later)
-Make sure PH is around the 3.5 range, and add 5g Fermaid-O, stir and pitch re-hydrated yeast
Day 1, 3, 5, 7, 8
-Stir and then de-gas
Day 2, 4, 6
-Gentrly stir and add 5g Fermaid-O
*when degassing and adding nutrients do so slowly to avoid foaming





Secondary Fermenter: 6.0 gallon glass carboy- Day 10 or under 1.020 gravity
-Do not stir, aerate or de-gas
-Rack to a new carboy every 60 days, or whenever sediment/lees becomes ¼” thick
-Over 3-6 months test wine for taste/aroma, add tannin to taste.
-Bottle when NO lees appears after 60 days and the wine is clear
-When ready add 6/16 tsp potassium metabisulphite (if necessary) then filter wine and rack into bottles.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm at about the 72 hour mark after pitching my yeast; the gravity is virtually the same (1.085) and there has been no activity in the air lock.

Should I be concerned yet? I'd really like to not ruin my must; it wasnt cheap.

Should I re-pitch? Re-sulphite then re-pitch later?

I rehydrated my yeast packs with ~105f water with a small amount of fermaid O, 30 minutes prior to pitching. I oxygenated both musts with an air stone prior to pitching.

Both must PH's tested between 3.2-3.6.

The Cyser had 3tsp pectic enzyme, 7 crushed campden tablets (6.5 gallons current); 71B-1122 x2
The Wine had 2.5tsp pectic enzyme, 6 crushed campden tablets (5 gallons current) 71B-1118 x2
Both had OG of 1.085, the cider I used had an OG of 1.053

I'm currently planning on re-pitching tomorrow. Thoughts?

There should be some sign of activity within 24 hours.
Look carefully at a label on that apple juice. All the gallon milk jugs of cloudy apple juice I've seen have sorbate added. The sturdier jugs of filtered apple juice have vitamin C or sodium ascorbate added (which are okay)

z-bob said:

There should be some sign of activity within 24 hours.
Look carefully at a label on that apple juice. All the gallon milk jugs of cloudy apple juice I've seen have sorbate added. The sturdier jugs of filtered apple juice have vitamin C or sodium ascorbate added (which are okay)

Click to expand...

It was all fresh cider from an orchard; it was flash pasteurized. I'll call them tomorrow to see if they have added sorbate; what issue would sorbate cause?

The only room for error I can think of is the following;
-I added my campden tablets and i pitched my yeast ~25 hours later. I had tin foil covering the must's instead of porous towels. Actually that last picture I posted was their state between adding the sulfites and pitching my yeast

Could I have perhaps not gas'd off enough of the sulfite before pitching my yeast? (which i'm sure I did properly)

Eiether way; i'll be re- pitching yeast tomorrow and seeing what happens...


I'm generally very good at working with my yeasts. Often my beers have vigorous fermentation within 12 hours of pitching. The main difference this time was with using the sulfites

If they added any chemicals, it should be on the label. Also, if it was pasteurized, you didn't need to add Campden tablets.

I bet you...it's was sobated cider! If so, just drink it now, while you can Or freeze it, and start a new vigorous 5 gallon batch, and then start to add that must in 1 gallon stages.

I always, always request a special fresh-pressed batch. Most places will do that for you. Not even pasteurized! No flavor change that way!

Fair enough; I adde the campden as an extra precaution expecting the SO4 to de-gas appropriately within 24 hours.

I'm unsure if the stuff has preservatives in it; i'll call and figure out tomorrow. I don't have any of the jugs left over I threw them all away.

I think my plan will to be; use my vacuum pump to de-gas the musts; re-oxygenate and re-pitch yeast and see what happens. And plan out my next recipe while making absolutely sure that preservatives arent present. And if the cider is shat for fermenting; to try and find a quality cider source.

Cool so I figured out what went wrong

I called the orchard and they said the cider had Sodium Benzoate added; so this batch was pretty much a wash.

I then called every apple orchard within a 2 mile drive. Sodium Benzoate was in every single cider.

Then I went to craiglist and found a few people selling fresh non pasturized perservative free cider made to order; so I emailed all 3 people offering that service.

I was also looking into fruit presses and considering getting one of them; either way i'll be going this route soon.

It was a waste of about $110; but thats not a big deal. The wildflower honey had no noticable floral aroma; and thats still the thing i'm most upset about wasting hah.

I'll be re-starting each recipe but i'll probably use a different honey. I wasnt planning on trying either until mid-late summer; so being set back a couple weeks really isnt a big deal. I also learned an important lesson and found the possible vinting goldmine of craiglist. I'll post new pics once I get them re started
---------------------------------------------------

I got a response from a local cider supplier pretty quick; i'll be picking up 16 gallons of cider this weekend and i'll be getting it within 24 hours of it being juiced. Its made from Honeycrisp and Haralson apples

suggestion? Want the honey aroma? Don't ferment it. Add it as a sweetener at the end!

lukebuz said:

suggestion? Want the honey aroma? Don't ferment it. Add it as a sweetener at the end!

Click to expand...

Thats actually a really solid idea; I think i'll use honey for the alcohol content and then i'll back sweeten it with honey.

After some thought; I bet cyser with actual honey flavor and aroma would be more of a crowd pleaser than a cyser with subtle honey flavor and arome (subtle is likely being generous).

How do I stop fermentation? Sulfites? I imagine if I back sweeten I can get my abv to the 14-15 range without it being overwhelming; thus capping my yeast fermentation.

I imagine I'd back sweeten once primary fermentation is completely completed?

I don't want it super sweet; but yeah I guess a little sweet would be prefered over completely dry. Afterall i'm making an apple wine that will be very dry

Yup, I use Honey to backsweeten almost all my wines. A winner for sure. More complexity, but I only make them off-dry (1/4 cup/gallon), so not a overwheliming honey flavor. Using it for the ABV is good too, but too expensive for me!

You can't stop the ferment. Let it go dry. Hopefully an ABV at 13.5% is the highest you plan. Otherwise, it'll be too hot, too hard to balance.

Finish your wine completely before you sweeten (primary, secondary, racking, clearing), then in your bottling bucket, add the honey and stir until dissolved. Or, if you want to bulk age on the honey rack not into a bottling bucket, but another carboy, add honey, airlock and wait.

I just add at bottling, and age in the bottle.

lukebuz said:

Yup, I use Honey to backsweeten almost all my wines. A winner for sure. More complexity, but I only make them off-dry (1/4 cup/gallon), so not a overwheliming honey flavor. Using it for the ABV is good too, but too expensive for me!

You can't stop the ferment. Let it go dry. Hopefully an ABV at 13.5% is the highest you plan. Otherwise, it'll be too hot, too hard to balance.

Finish your wine completely before you sweeten (primary, secondary, racking, clearing), then in your bottling bucket, add the honey and stir until dissolved. Or, if you want to bulk age on the honey rack not into a bottling bucket, but another carboy, add honey, airlock and wait.

I just add at bottling, and age in the bottle.

Click to expand...

^I've decided I will definitely be trying this. I'm somebody who likes to be able to drink as much of a drink as possible (aka, i like "lower" abv). I wouldnt be surprised if I sorbate my wine at like 12% and then back sweeten with honey.

Or caclulate them to finish at 12%; kill it and then back sweeten.


I have lots of time to mess around with recipes and things tho. I think slightly sweeter apple wines would be more of a crowd pleaser though; especially if its back sweetened with honey.

I love the suggestions!

I think the cider i'm getting this sunday will be amazing

OK, do your research. You can't really KILL a ferment. Not reliably, and still have a drinkable product. You need to start it correctly to have it finish right. I usually start at 1.085 - 1.090. For 12%, start at 1.080. It'll finish around 0.992. Clear (I use Super-Kleer). Sweeten. Enjoy!

PS I liked to use the "raw" honey, or Orange Blossom, or something fun like that. Always local, if I can help it. Local fruit, local honey = big winner.

lukebuz said:

OK, do your research. You can't really KILL a ferment. Not reliably, and still have a drinkable product. You need to start it correctly to have it finish right. I usually start at 1.085 - 1.090. For 12%, start at 1.080. It'll finish around 0.992. Clear (I use Super-Kleer). Sweeten. Enjoy!

PS I liked to use the "raw" honey, or Orange Blossom, or something fun like that. Always local, if I can help it. Local fruit, local honey = big winner.

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Yep I understand that; i maybe should have re-phrased my words. 12% is about where i plan on aiming; when its done its done. I'll then backsweeten with honey to taste.

I've done ridiculous amounts of research on different honeys and their forms; i'm well versed on the subject.

My current subject of research will be; once my fermentation is complete and I plan on back-sweetening; how will I stop my dormant yeast from fermenting the new sugars.

It looks like some sort of home-made wine conditioner will do the trick. But I have a few more weeks to learn about that subject; if not longer- before its relevant.

I'll also look into Super-Kleer. It seems like its just Kieselsol and Chitosan. It looks like Wine Conditioner is fructose/gluconse/and potassium sorbate.

I've used forms of all of those things before so i'm familiar enough with them; i'll do more research on all of it though and then build my own regiment for each wine



I search up and down to try and source local ingredients

Once fermentation is done and the wine clears (with or without fining agents) you rack it off the lees and add potassium metabisulfite + sorbate to prevent your sweetening sugar from fermenting. Standard practice, very simple, and it works.

Yup. He summed it up for keeping it from re-fermenting.

Tell me (post it here), what have you learned about Honey? I'd like to know! Maybe make a new thread if you have really good info??

Yooper said:

The thing with filtering is that you have to have a clear product before filtering because any sediment and stuff will clog up the pads. It will take a wine with a bit of a haze to polished, but it won't clear a wine that actually has sediment in it or that is still dropping lees.

Your cyser should clear just fine on its own. Only when it's not dropping any lees and it's still murky would you need finings (not filtering).

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Yep! I totally understand that; as you said; the filtering is to be a polish.

I'm really just filtering it to remove any last bits of large sedement that didnt join the lees. I have to carry my carboys up a set of stairs before i'm in a clean enough room to re-rack; so inevitably I end up disturbing the lees.

In this case filtering it is really just to remove those big chunks of disturbed lees and any hairs or awkward particles that may still be in my wine; which is why i'll never filter with something smaller than a 5 micron filter.

As you said; its a polish more than anything

lukebuz said:

Yup. He summed it up for keeping it from re-fermenting.

Tell me (post it here), what have you learned about Honey? I'd like to know! Maybe make a new thread if you have really good info??

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Oh god thats a big question

Raw vs pasturized

Raw; you might find slightly filtered honeys that are raw; I plan on using honeys that are as un-filtered as possible; I want to use the waxes and see if I can extract any extra aromas out of them and let the wax fall to the lees and re rack it until clear.

Pasturized; I used to make a lot of hash (hah); which has a LOOOOOT to do with aroma/terpene retention. Even at low temps you boil off a lot of your complex aromas; so I think unfiltered-unpasturized honeys are the best. If you are just using it to back-sweeten with sulphites and sorbate then I doubt your honey choice matters much. But if you are looking for complex honey characteristics to be the backbone of whatever you are making; you will get the most complex characteristics out of raw-unfiltered honey.

On top of that; there are ~300 avalible varities of honey. If the bee's are kept near blueberries; they will make blueberry blossom honey. If the honey is in florida by orange trees; they will make orange blossom honey. etc.... and each honey has different characteristics. Some may be more of a kick you in the mouth honey flavor (buckweat for example). Some may have more delicate complex characteristics (Blueberry blossom-raspberry blossom-wildflower-etc....)

http://www.honey.com/honey-at-home/learn-about-honey/honey-varietals/

Oh god honey is complicated...

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On filtering vs stopping fermentation; My current decision is to add sorbate or sulfites (or likely both) Once I feel the fermentation has completed to the level I want it; and then either bottle or back sweeten to my desired taste.

Filtering is really just to make sure I take out any random large particles. I'll probably be drinking 1/5 of my wines- friends will be driking the last 4/5. I don't want any of them to open a bottle and have some random particles floating around that I know are harmless but they might associate with bad wine. I want the people who are drinking my products to enjoy it from every angle

Also; I sent a brunello and a blueberry pinot noir through my 5 micron filter the last few days; the results were amazing. Crystal clear

On filtering vs stopping fermentation; My current decision is to add sorbate or sulfites (or likely both) Once I feel the fermentation has completed to the level I want it; and then either bottle or back sweeten to my desired taste.

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Sorbate and Sulfites will not stop an active fermentation, you'll need to ferment to dry then I would rack it to another carboy, demijohn, or what ever you are using -
At this point, you add the sulfite and sorbate to the wine and back sweeten, I use a simple syrup 2:1 sugar and water.

You can back sweeten to a certain gravity level using your hydrometer, or you can slowly add a little syrup or in your case, honey that has been heated just to the point that it will dissolve in the wine. I don't use my hydrometer, all wines will be different, I usually just add a small amount mixing real well until you reach your desired sweetness. I usually have my wife taste the wine to give me her feedback.

As far as filtering your wine, I usually age my reds 2 years, during this time it will drop sediment and become clear

I hope that this helps.

Yep I understand that; I will be fermenting until the fermentation stops and then back sweetening.

ATM i'm strongly considering back sweetening with fresh raspberry puree with sorbate and sulfites and adding some extra pectic enzyme and letting that all clear for as long as it needs and then filtering it.

I just re started my cyser and wine with super fresh cider with no preservatives and no pasturization; its by far the best tasting apple cider i've ever tasted.

I'll let the cyser finish fermentation and then maybe back sweeten it with a little honey+ sorbate + sulfite

I'll let the wine finish fermentation and then probably back sweeten with raspberry puree+ sorbate + sulfite


I'm still working on my first wines; I don't expect my brunello to age too well (more than ~2 years) because I made some mistakes- but once I really have a handle on my teknique i'll prep some wines for long aging.

I'm going to be prepping the cyser and raspberry apple wine for long aging; but i'll probably try a few bottles next summer


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PvkoSA8goU[/ame]
Edit: LOL. He looks ridiculous in that youtube snapshot

I just found that vid^ This guy is a beast- he goes over back sweetening very well.

Very little he said is "news" to me; but it helps clarify my mess of knowledge hah

Gemadrken said:

How do I stop fermentation? Sulfites? I imagine if I back sweeten I can get my abv to the 14-15 range without it being overwhelming; thus capping my yeast fermentation.

I imagine I'd back sweeten once primary fermentation is completely completed?

I don't want it super sweet; but yeah I guess a little sweet would be prefered over completely dry. Afterall i'm making an apple wine that will be very dry

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My 2c is head over to the cider sub forum and have a look at the stickied thread about pasteurising, dead easy to do.

oldmate said:

My 2c is head over to the cider sub forum and have a look at the stickied thread about pasteurising, dead easy to do.

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I can dig it- i'll check it out


On the bright side the cyser is fermenting like a charm; the 10 gallons of apple wine havent started yet. Different yeast strain for those two tho

Still no fermentation for the apple wines

Cyser going great

I just re pitched its yeast and I used EC-1118 (the one I used on the cyser). They were pitched 1122 first

Any ideas on why fermentation hasnt started?

I may be too late, but if you are using fresh apples, add pectic enzyme at the rate of 3/4 tsp per gallon to extract more juice out of your pulp, and 1 Campden tablet per gallon to prevent oxidation and the turning brown of your apple juice. Also to get rid of any bacteria, wild yeast and mold, 1/4 tsp per gallon of potassium metabisulfite. But if you are using store bought cider or juice ( which is filtered cider ), make sure that it does not contain any sorbate additions. The sorbate will inhibit your yeast growth and putter out your fermentation cycle. Your malic acid should be around 0.65% to 0.85%, I wouldn't stress too much about it. Your yeast, while the lalvin71b is good, for apples though I use K1L-1116, it keeps the apple taste better i think.PH though should be 3.5 +/- .3. This can be adjusted with acid blend if necessary. When I make wine and need to make a gravity adjustment, I use corn sugar, it raises the gravity without impacting flavor. For your honey aroma/taste, I would recommend back sweetening.
Cheers!

Yep I got that all figured out!

I'm making 6 gallons cyser- started at 1.053, added honey to 1.085, i'll be adding sorbate and k-meta and then back sweetening with more honey once fermentation is done

I'm making 5 gallons of apple/raspberry wine. Also 1.085, i'll be sweetening with raspberry puree after fermentation and racking it off the fruit 5-7 days after adding it

I'm making 5 gallons of apple/peach wine, which is also 1.085. I'll be back sweetening with peach puree after fermentation and racking off the fruit pulp 5-7 days after adding.

So lots of wine going on! I think its going to go pretty well; all 3 are bubbling away very well

Hey does anybody have any good info on back sweetening with fruit puree? My 2 apple wines are close to having fermented dry and I just got 20lbs of raspberries; i'm planning on sweetening one of them with fresh raspberry puree and one with fresh peach puree then racking them off the lees 7 days after adding the puree's. I'm looking towards for each

I have K-meta and sorbate




Also i'm making a raspberry mead but the mead forum is slow so i'll ask this here:

I have 15lbs of raw honey and 14-15lbs of raspberries that i'm planning on using. Is 15 lbs too much? I'm planning on fermenting it dry and i'll be targeting 14 abv

Gemadrken said:

Also i'm making a raspberry mead but the mead forum is slow so i'll ask this here:

I have 15lbs of raw honey and 14-15lbs of raspberries that i'm planning on using. Is 15 lbs too much? I'm planning on fermenting it dry and i'll be targeting 14 abv

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Are you looking at a 5 gallon batch of mead?
14-15 lbs of raspberries should give you a decent raspberry flavor.
Hold back 2 or 3 lbs to add to your secondary after you rack from primary.
Fermenting the fruit in primary gives it the nice base fermented fruit flavor. Adding a bit of fruit to secondary gives your mead fantastic fruit aroma as well as some of that fresh, truer to fruit taste.

eta: consider doing this one off dry. Raspberry needs just a little bit of sweet to bring forward the full rounded raspberry flavor. 1.01 finish gives a nice flavor if you don't want to go full on sweet.

Sounds good I appreciate the advice; i'm looking for a 5 gallon batch, but ultimately the yield will be whatever my gravity/flavor targets give me based off my quantity of ingredients (aka 5 gallons +/- a little to hit ~14abv)

By secondary do you mean add that 2-3lbs of honey and some extra fruit with sorbate and sulfites so they dont ferment? Or do you suggest I let it ferment dry and add more honey/raspberry and let that ferment.


I'm planning on putting the raspberries in a straining bag and smashing them while collecting the juice- then I will add the juice and the pulp in a bag to my primary fermentation bucket and remove the pulp bag at ~day 7

The honey and raspberries are both very high quality directly from local producers; I don't necessarially want either to overshadow the other. I'll likely back sweeten a little- I like my wines dry but I make my stuff to share and I bet a little sweetness will make it more of a crowd pleaser

Gemadrken said:

By secondary do you mean add that 2-3lbs of honey and some extra fruit with sorbate and sulfites so they dont ferment? Or do you suggest I let it ferment dry and add more honey/raspberry and let that ferment.

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I would just let it go completely dry, then rack onto the extra fruit. Leave it for a week or three (depending on the temperature), then rack again.
If you are going to sorbate/sulfite, do it at some point after this.

Jericurl said:

I would just let it go completely dry, then rack onto the extra fruit. Leave it for a week or three (depending on the temperature), then rack again.
If you are going to sorbate/sulfite, do it at some point after this.

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Awesome thank you