Hate to ask...

Sorry for starting another newbie thread, but I want to get some things ironed out before I dive in head first.

I've got a pretty good kit from the local home brewer supply store. There were 4 kits to choose from ranging from 89 to 200, but I opted for the 140 dollar kit. It came with the 5 gallon glass carboy and alot of other things I'm not to sure what they do yet, but we'll see soon enough. The owner of the store help pick everything out, so I'm hoping its all good quality stuff. I ended up getting the Brewers Best Vienna Lager kit, and I'm now kinda hesitant about trying it. In the instructions it says to transfer the beer for secondary lagering and to lower the temperature 1-3 degrees per day until 35-42 degrees is reached. I'm a bit puzzled on how to do this? I'm assuming I'll have to get a secondary refrigerator and slowly cool down the batch to desired temps? I've been doing alot of reading/searching on here and haven't came across anything like this. Is this necessary?

Should I just do my first batch as a Ale or should I try the Lager first?

Any tips or tricks would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks,
Shawn

I'm a newb too but I think the Ale would better to start out as you don't have the temp control as much. Room temp is good enough for them as long as you heat and cool your home accordingly, I assume. I have two ales in fermentation as we speak! Lagers scare me.

I would say if you have an extra fridge to use and can store your Carboy in it that's cool, do it. It not try doing it as an ale. It will still be good. I have run across this with the German Oktoberfest. In the directions it said it performs well as an ale

My 2 cents

Oh and welcome to the hbt!
Cheers

Welcome to HBT!

Yes, you will need some sort of fridge, converted freezer (with the thermostat override so it can go warmer than normal). For a lager, I make sure fermentation is done (usually about 3 weeks in primary at 45 or so), then remove from the fridge to warm up for a few days to do what is called a diacetyl rest. If you don't do this, you can get a butterscotch flavor to the finished brew.

After that is done, I'll rack, then put in my fridge and cool the temp down a couple of degrees/day. I'll keep it in there at about 32 - 35 (I go a bit cooler) for at least a couple of months to lager, sometimes longer, depending upon the style and how much of a hurry I'm in. Usually, the longer you wait, the better it will turn out. I would strongly recommend doing a diacetyl rest and lagering on all of your lagers.

A lager takes longer to make than an ale. I would fire up the lager and then start an ale soon so you have something to drink.

a steam ale is using a lager yeast at ale fermenting temps so if you like steam ales.

Never listen to someone who states that they are a newb in the first line!!! (talking about me, and yes Im really that dumb) ;P

You ought to take that back and get an ale kit.

Dropping slowly like that is unnecessary, but to make a nice lager you do need cold temps (i.e., 2 weeks at 55, 2 weeks at 32). Thats a minimum. What if you don't do that? It will still be good, and possibly blow you away. But that's how the ideal lagers are made (I'm drinking one right now!). Also, secondaries are not necessary, but they do help reduce the amount of yeast at the bottom of the bottle for brewers that bottle condition.

For a first-time beer, you should get an ale which ferments ideally around 65. Ales don't benefit from lagering (storing at very cold temps) unless you want it to be very clear. Ales, because of the elevated fermentation temps, will be done more quickly, which is a benefit to a new brewer.

I'm sure your LHBS was just trying to suit your drinking preferences. Although lagers are, by far, the most common style of beer in the world, they do require extra equipment that many homebrewers don't have.

Ales are simpler to ferment and more forgiving of temps than lagers, and most of the advice I've seen on here says to start with an ale until you get used to the process. Ales can ferment from the low 60's to about 70*F ambient and still be ok, to warm and the yeasts can start to throw esters and fusel alcohols. Lagers need to ferment at cooler temperatures, like the mid 50's I think, and then a long cold conditioning period.

I haven't done a lager yet because I'm waiting to see if the temps in the far dark corners of my basement will get me there. I have seen a few fermentation chamber builds on the site, probably worth a search. I think I've also seen threads where people have dedicated an old fridge or freezer for this purpose.

Try searching the wiki or the forum for lagering or lager.

My friend Ed says, when faced with this dilemma, "Sure it's a lager recipe, and yes it's to warm to ferment it here, but we can just use an ale yeast instead, it will still make beer! The important thing to remember is that it is supposed to be fun."

Hope this helps. Happy brewing!

Wow, you guys type fast.

Wow, 8 replys already. Thanks for all the suggestions.


I will most likely try the ale first, but I'm faced with another conundrum. The BB kit I got is listed as a Lager, but has Ale brewing tips. Will post link later. I wonder if this will turn out fine as a Ale as opposed to a Lager?

Copied directly out of the Vienna Lager instructions....

Brewer’s Best® recommends lagering this
recipe to achieve the true lager character of
this beer style. However, if you are not properly
equipped to lager your beer, the included
yeast will perform well when fermented as an
ale. When fermenting as an ale (between 64º
- 72ºF) try to keep the beer on the cooler end
of the temperature range and allow for some
additional time for the lager yeast to ferment
down to the FG. If possible, rack to a secondary
fermenter for two weeks prior to bottling.
Consult your local homebrew shop to learn
more about the equipment necessary to lager
your beers. Although this method is not
as accurate as temperature-controlled lagering
equipment, most climates provide a seasonal
window that will allow you to lager beer.



Link to entire brewing instructions: http://brewersbestkits.com/pdf/1005_Vienna_Lager.pdf

Not reading that. Just brew it anyway, it will be great.

Unless you are used to buying nothing but premium microbrews, your kit will likely turn out better than any beer you have drunk even if you brew it as an ale. Brewers Best wants you to be happy with the beer you brew so you will buy more kits. The wouldn't chance ruining their reputation by giving you such bad advice that the beer was undrinkable.

One thing I noticed when I started brewing was the instructions that you ferment for a week and then you could bottle and wait another week to start drinking. The beer turned out OK, not great and the Irish Stout eventually became over-carbed because I hadn't given it enough time to fully ferment before bottling. Do yourself a favor, let it ferment for 2 to 3 weeks before you bottle and then drink only one at the one week time to let you know what "green beer' tastes like. Let the rest sit for another 2 to 4 weeks to get done with the cleanup and melding of flavors and you will have some tasty brew.

Instead of starting a new thread I'll post of some of my questions as I'm doing my first brew tonight. So please bare with me.

I picked up a Imperial Pale Ale from Brewer's Best today instead of using my Vienna Lager. (brewing the IPA as we speek)

Step 7 in the instructions state to transfer the wort into a sanitized fermenter. Should I use the 5 gallon plastic jug that came in my kit, or should I use the 5 gallong carboy? I thought the carboy was used for secondary fermentation?????


Thanks again ladys and gents!

preddy08 said:

Instead of starting a new thread I'll post of some of my questions as I'm doing my first brew tonight. So please bare with me.

I picked up a Imperial Pale Ale from Brewer's Best today instead of using my Vienna Lager. (brewing the IPA as we speek)

Step 7 in the instructions state to transfer the wort into a sanitized fermenter. Should I use the 5 gallon plastic jug that came in my kit, or should I use the 5 gallong carboy? I thought the carboy was used for secondary fermentation?????


Thanks again ladys and gents!

Click to expand...

You need to use a 6 gallon carboy, or a 6.5 gallon carboy, or a 6.5 gallon bucket. Check the size of the plastic fermenter that came with your kit- if it's an "ale pail", it's bigger than 5 gallons.

You generally use the "ale pail" or a 6.5 gallon carboy for a fermenter. The 5 gallon carboy is for the clearing tank ("secondary"), if you're using it.

Sorry, I'm use to saying/dealing 5 gallon buckets, it is infact the 6.5 gallon bucket.

preddy08 said:

Sorry, I'm use to saying/dealing 5 gallon buckets, it is infact the 6.5 gallon bucket.

Click to expand...

Perfect!

well, I just goofed

When I was adding the liquid and dried malt extract I forgot to add the third bag of DME until the first round of Hops were in the pot for a minute or so.

I'm hoping I didn't screw it up too bad. It seemed to disolve just fine.


Time will tell I suppose.

preddy08 said:

well, I just goofed

When I was adding the liquid and dried malt extract I forgot to add the third bag of DME until the first round of Hops were in the pot for a minute or so.

I'm hoping I didn't screw it up too bad. It seemed to disolve just fine.


Time will tell I suppose.

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. No problem. Boiling time for DME and LME isn't important. It's the hops that need the time.

One more minor goof.

The OG going into the fermenter was 1.073 and as stated in the instructions it said to use 1.081-1.085. I added 2 gallons of water after alll the brewing was done, and thats what the OG came to. Hind sight is 20/20, should of added little by little untill the specified OG was reached.

I'm hoping this will turn out alright.

preddy08 said:

One more minor goof.

The OG going into the fermenter was 1.073 and as stated in the instructions it said to use 1.081-1.085. I added 2 gallons of water after alll the brewing was done, and thats what the OG came to. Hind sight is 20/20, should of added little by little untill the specified OG was reached.

I'm hoping this will turn out alright.

Click to expand...

no worries...not too far off...should be fine

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

pikledbill said:

no worries...not too far off...should be fine

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

Click to expand...

Agree - chances are, your hydrometer isn't calibrated all that finely anyway.

Yet another detail question...

The IPA has been fermenting since Friday night at about 10:30, started bubbling Saturday afternoonish. When is a good time to take another gravity reading? and do I take the bucket lid off and place the sanitized hydrometer dirrectly in the bucket or should I siphon enough out and use the supplyed hydrometer container? If I use the siphon I take it I have to take out the valve to get the siphon in.


As you can tell I have a way of over thinking these things. LOL

preddy08 said:

Yet another detail question...

The IPA has been fermenting since Friday night at about 10:30, started bubbling Saturday afternoonish. When is a good time to take another gravity reading? and do I take the bucket lid off and place the sanitized hydrometer dirrectly in the bucket or should I siphon enough out and use the supplyed hydrometer container? If I use the siphon I take it I have to take out the valve to get the siphon in.


As you can tell I have a way of over thinking these things. LOL

Click to expand...

In about two weeks, would be a good time to take a gravity reading. I use a sanitized turkey baster to pull out the sample and then put it in the hydrometer jar. You could put the hydrometer into the beer, but it's hard to read unless it's at eye level, and it's possible you could drop the hydrometer a bit hard and it could break in your beer.

I plan on using my glass carboy for a secondary fermentation and it says to transfer to the secondary container for further fermentation. Is there a specific gravity to transer? The kit says to transfer at 5-7 days, or when the bubbling slows. You say to take a gravity reading in two weeks, I'm assuming your using the method to finish fermentation in the primary container?

Also when transfering to the secondary carboy do move ALL the contents to the carboy or should I leave some of the sludge in the primary?

Does it matter if you take the lid off to take the gravity reading?

Do most people use the secondary carboy for fermentation, or simply use the primary for final fermentation?

Here's the secondary fermentation instructions per the BB kit.

Brewer’s Best® recommends home brewers
employ the practice of a two-stage fermentation.
This will allow your fi nished beer to have
more clarity and an overall better, purer fl avor.
All you need is a 5-gallon carboy, drilled stopper,
airlock and siphon setup to transfer the
beer. You will also need to monitor and record
the SG with your hydrometer when the beer is
in the ‘primary’. When the fermentation slows
(5-7 days), but before it completes, simply
transfer the beer into the carboy and allow fermentation
to fi nish in the ‘secondary’. Leave
the beer for about two weeks and then proceed
to Bottling Day. Consult your local retailer to
learn more about this technique.

I would just wait 7 days in the primary then transfer to secondary for about a week or 2. The secondary fermenter's primary purpose is to "clean up" your beer. When you transfer to the secondary, fermentation continues, but you'll leave all the sludge behind in the primary fermenter. When you go to bottle, you'll get much less sediment at the bottom of your bottle.


The gravity readings aren't really a huge deal. You want to take an OG and FG reading to determine if fermentation is done and also to determine alcohol content. (In my experience, all I take gravity readings for is to determine ABV ).

Just what I wanted ot hear tmurp6.

Again, thanks for all the help everyone!

I'll surely post some pics and reviews of my final batch!

Is it better to move a big beer while it's still fermenting?

I know what the kit directions say, and the 1,2,3 rule can get you through if your hydrometer breaks, but I always heard transferring your beer while it was still fermenting could stress the yeast and cause them to stall or throw off flavors. Is this different for higher gravity brews?

It seems most people (many? more than a couple?) on this site usually leave it in the primary for 3-4 weeks and don't move them until the gravity is the same for 3 days to week for an average brew, and higher gravity or more complex brews sit longer. Many do use secondary vessels as clearing tanks, for extended bulk aging after fermentation, fruiting, or dry hopping. This seems to be only after stable gravity readings for 3 or more days.

you could spend a long time reading about this topic right on this site from many people who know way more about it than I do. Use the search and check out the various forum stickies.

It is safe to open the fermentor to check the gravity as long as you practice good sanitation, ie clean and sanitize your thief or baster, etc.. etc..

You are doing just fine. Unless you transfer too early, fermentation does not occur in the secondary vessel. I leave my beer in primary for at least two weeks before transfering it and I only transfer when I dry hop. Otherwise its 3-4 weeks in primary, then bottle. I don't know about anyone else, but after 3weeks, I don't bother taking readings to make sure its done.
Regarding beer clarity...time heals all wounds. Think of it this way: If you plan to age your beer 4 weeks, you can leave your beer on the primary yeast cake for 4 weeks settling all of that time (after fermentation). If you let it settle for two weeks, then transfer to secondary, you will disturb sediment no matter how careful you are and then really only have 2 weeks of clearing after you transfer.

Now that you are waiting patiently for bottling time I wonder if you might tell me who this fine LHBS person is that would 1: send you out of the store with a Lager for your very first beer, and 2: exchange it for an IIPA? Not that you aren't capable of working it out on your own, but a guy who sells you your first gear ought to be making sure your first beer is the best experience possible.
Also, while you are waiting, read these:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/

northernlad said:

You are doing just fine. Unless you transfer too early, fermentation does not occur in the secondary vessel. I leave my beer in primary for at least two weeks before transfering it and I only transfer when I dry hop. Otherwise its 3-4 weeks in primary, then bottle. I don't know about anyone else, but after 3weeks, I don't bother taking readings to make sure its done.
Regarding beer clarity...time heals all wounds. Think of it this way: If you plan to age your beer 4 weeks, you can leave your beer on the primary yeast cake for 4 weeks settling all of that time (after fermentation). If you let it settle for two weeks, then transfer to secondary, you will disturb sediment no matter how careful you are and then really only have 2 weeks of clearing after you transfer.

Now that you are waiting patiently for bottling time I wonder if you might tell me who this fine LHBS person is that would 1: send you out of the store with a Lager for your very first beer, and 2: exchange it for an IIPA? Not that you aren't capable of working it out on your own, but a guy who sells you your first gear ought to be making sure your first beer is the best experience possible.
Also, while you are waiting, read these:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/

Click to expand...

Thanks the the links. I've been reading/trying to soak in all this information and it can be a bit overwelming at times. After reading about secondary fermentation is almost obsolete I think I'll be leaving it in the primary for 3 weeks or so. I seem to have a VERY stable 65 degrees in a dark room for the primary to sit in, so that has me very psyched.


My air lock is bubbling every 4-8 seconds. (can't stop watching thinking of all the bubblie goodness that awaits me).

As far as my LHBS guy. I think his intentions were good, but I may of strayed him a bit when I saw the Vienna Lager. I know he should of told me the extra steps involved, but who cares. Its a learning curve. I knew almost nothing when I went into the store and got everything on a whim. No harm, no foul.

One more thing I've been wondering?

is it sacraligious to drink Busch Light while brewing? There's gotta be some bad ju ju in there somewhere.

.

northernlad said:

Now that you are waiting patiently for bottling time I wonder if you might tell me who this fine LHBS person is that would 1: send you out of the store with a Lager for your very first beer, and 2: exchange it for an IIPA? Not that you aren't capable of working it out on your own, but a guy who sells you your first gear ought to be making sure your first beer is the best experience possible.

Click to expand...

I was wondering about this also - this did not strike me as the way to help a novice.

Would that be friendly Frank?

It is infact Frank. How do you know of him?

I just trasfered the batch over to the carboy for bottling tomorrow. Looks and smells wonderful!