Apple cultivar advice, plus perry question.

Hi! I'm new here. Looking for opinions.

I have 4-5 spots in my home orchard where I'd like to plant cider apples. I'd like to know your opinion on which 4 you'd plant and why you like those four. I'm looking for, maybe, one variety each of Bittersweet, Bittersharp, Sharp and Sweet apples. Flavor is important, but disease resistance and precocious production are other factors I'll consider.

For the fifth possible tree, I'm considering a Kingston Black, since my understanding of this apple is that be used without blending. However, in terms of maintenance, the thing seems like it's a bit of a drug addict.

I live in the Michigan fruit belt and I'm surrounded by orchards. In my home orchard I already have Sansa, Honeycrisp, and Granny Smith varieties on dwarf or semi-dwarf rootstocks. They are young trees but have just started to produce well. I also have a Hyslop Crab, which we use for jelly, but I also understand it can be used to flavor cider.

I also have an abundance of traditional American varieties like Northern Spy, Winesap, and Baldwin available cheap. It comes with the territory.

One more thing. I have a large d'Anjou pear tree that produces way more pears than we can ever can or eat fresh. I'm considering making perry with this. Opinions on d'Anjou perry? And while I'm here, any thoughts on using the d'Anjou juice as a base that I can blend with cider apples?

dessert pear juice doesn't have much flavour and has high pH, but it does add a bit of body to cider. I prefer to ferment it with apple juice, usually about 10% but that is just my preference.
For choosing apple cultivars you need to consider things like time of ripening and flowering. Late cultivars can develop more flavour but are more susceptible to pests like birds. early cultivars are picked sooner so there is less time for pests to get in. You need to do some research of books and websites to see what is the best cultivars for your area. "New cidermakers handbook" and "craft cidermaking" Have some info about cider cultivars.

I would forego a sharp, since N. Spy, Baldwin, and Winsap will fall in that category already. For sweet, big sugar supply Golden Russet will deliver. I initially opted for bittersweet or bittersharps which were tagged as vintage meaning they have some reputation of making a decent single varietal cider. I've found lists aren't consistent on these. But that is why Yarlington Mill, Herefordshire Redstreak, Dabinett, Harry Masters Jersey, Brown Snout, Kingston Black and Foxwhelp all ended up in my young orchard.

Now, balance my advice as someone who has researched the heck out of things the past 8 years since when I first started scheming and planting, but has only picked a whopping dozen or so apples as of yet from my trees.

My ultimate target which I'm on the verge of attaining is 12 each of UK, French and US varieties in approximate blends of the region per Claude's book. With some grafting this year I'll be there.... other than a long wait for the newer ones to bear.

I have researched the heck out of apples and cider... obsessed over it for a couple years. Bottom line for me and probably most people is to get dwarf rootstock, and maximize your production. Disease resistance could also be a consideration depending on where you live -- ask around. It's important to select varieties that will produce well in your own climate -- some varieties will get cranky if they're too cold or too hot, or they'll get slammed with this bug or that disease. Many traditional varieties also really suck for how many apples they produce -- Kingston Black is one of those -- probably not worth the bother. Best advice I can give is to do a bit of research, and talk to some orchards near you for ideas, find out what they grow and what's most productive in your area. What grows well 50 or 100 miles away might not grow as well on your own property, so the closer the better.

If you want a traditional bittersharp, consider maybe Foxwhelp, I've had great luck with that one, although I also believe mine is probably a "Fauxwhelp" as there are apparently multiple varieties sold as the same thing. For what it's worth I got mine from Fedco. Whatever it is, it's produced lovely and tasty apples for me, rock hard when they fall from the tree so they need to sweat for a couple of weeks before juicing. Another option would be Ashmead's Kernel, tasty to eat, too, but again, not so productive. There are also less traditional varieties of course. Golden Noble comes to mind. Most crabapples are also actually bittersharps, always very productive, and tend to make really characterful juice even if you wouldn't want to eat them. Used with discretion as maybe 10% of your total juice, they can add a whole lot of everything you want in your cider. So, it's good to have at least a few branches of a crab grafted on one of your trees, if not a whole tree of its own. Scarlet Surprise is one non-traditional red-fleshed semi-crab with surprisingly tasty red juice. Not a great eater, but pretty, and great juice.

I agree with Quaker about probably skipping getting a sharp on purpose. Apples tend to have sharp enough juice without needing even more sharpness. Sharp ciders might be your thing... but don't expect anyone else to drink it! Zestar could actually work here as it kind of straddles the sharp/sweet line (not so dang sharp); and like its relative Honeycrisp, it's super juicy and flavorful. Wealthy could work too, another balanced version and very juicy.

Bittersweets.... now here's where things begin to get more interesting. You've got options. Dabinett, Yarlington Mill, Harry Masters Jersey, these are all good traditional options with reasonable production from what I can tell (I don't have any but like I said, I've researched). For less traditional, how about Arkansas Black?! I love that apple. If I was planting trees again, I'd get several of any or all of these -- you just can't go wrong (can you??).

And then the sweets.... well, whatever you can imagine might be good from the supermarket, probably is! Honeycrisp is actually a FANTASTIC juice apple, at least with respect to production -- you'll get just a ton of juice, although it's not the most characterful. But how about something a little different? Maybe instead of Golden Delicious, try its parent Grimes Golden. Paula Red is a common orchard apple that makes good juice. A rare one to try that makes glorious juice is Washington Strawberry -- this is not a red-fleshed apple, but rather the apple and the juice actually tastes like strawberry!! Keepsake makes great juice. I honestly don't know how productive any of these trees are, but I can tell you they make good juice as I've juiced them myself, individually to compare. I've been experimenting with juicing different apples separately for a few years. These are all my favorites. You'll get a lot of tasty juice for the pound with all of these, I can promise you.

I hope this gives you a few ideas to think about!

I bet your d'Anjou perry would turn out great... maybe even greater with a handful of crabapples put in for some tannin. That should do the trick!

I have two pear trees in the yard that I gather fruit from as it falls on it's own. I have been dicing the fruit up, and dumping it into a bucket in the freezer, until I have enough to run a batch of cider.

Neither pear is of a particular cider variety, nor do I have any real idea what the varieties are, one ripens yellow skinned and very soft, the other green and harder, but later than the first.

I have not tried to age any of the resultant brew, it did not last that long in the rack. I have added apple juice, either pure or as Frozen concentrate. Pretty good hooch! Quite mild flavor and easy to drink on a warm evening!

TeeJo

If you can get tons of winesaps then target what would blend well with them, maybe focus on bittersweets, staymans are good as are Grimes Goldens and Roxburrys, if you only have space for 5 trees getting different ones is only going to give you a few gallons, but those few gallons are going to be good. Some crabapple with lots of tannins might make a bigger impact than planting something like Kingstons to blend into winesaps and other available apples. WVMJ

On the perry pear, we are going with Ussurian Pears, supposed to be nasty tannic little devils, we will see, to mix with our euro pears for perry. WVMJ

Thanks everyone for the responses. One thing I've learned is that a large orchard nearby grows over 200 varieties of apple. So for adding and experimenting with nuanced flavors I should have a large selection of traditional hard cider varieties available. This leads me to thinking I'm looking for vintage varieties that I can use for either vintage production or flavoring other juice.

gregbathurst said:

... dessert pear juice doesn't have much flavour and has high pH, but it does add a bit of body to cider. I prefer to ferment it with apple juice, usually about 10% but that is just my preference.

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Greg, adding Hyslop crabapple juice is exactly what I'm considering. I'm open to other suggestions. I'm getting 10+ bushels off the pear, so that should deliver quite a bit of base juice to play with. This whole thing started when I was composting the pears and some of the blemished dessert apples -- there are only so many pies we can make and filling we put up for a year's use. I figure I'd rather ferment than compost.

gregbathurst said:

For choosing apple cultivars you need to consider things like time of ripening and flowering. Late cultivars can develop more flavour but are more susceptible to pests like birds.

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With the trees I have planted, I'm covered for early, mid, and late season. Also, with so many orchards around the property I don't think pollination is too big a problem. Spring is full of the aroma of fruit blossoms and delivers so much pollen we have to do extra dusting in the house. Here, we start the season with our Blossomtime Festival, and end it with the local bicycle club's Apple Cider Century. A few millennia ago I'm sure we'd be sacrificing virgins to the apple gods.

Birds seem to target the earliest-maturing fruit of each tree. And then feed off that one apple. So I get one bird-eaten apple a tree. The rest seem OK, or so mildly sampled that it doesn't affect its candidacy for juice.

Quaker said:

I initially opted for bittersweet or bittersharps which were tagged as vintage meaning they have some reputation of making a decent single varietal cider.

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Vintage is definitely where my mind is at right now. I just learned that a large orchard ten miles from my house that has been in the same family for over 150 years. They advertise over 200 varieties (jealous?) , so for nuanced flavor I think I could find some cider apples there.

Quaker said:

Now, balance my advice as someone who has researched the heck out of things the past 8 years since when I first started scheming and planting, but has only picked a whopping dozen or so apples as of yet from my trees.

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Wow! As dmtaylor pointed out, are you growing on dwarf rootstock? We finished season 3 here and all the trees (Bud 9 and M9 rootstocks) we've planted are delivering 1/2 bushel apiece. The trees have a lot of growing to do, as well.

Quaker said:

My ultimate target which I'm on the verge of attaining is 12 each of UK, French and US varieties in approximate blends of the region per Claude's book. With some grafting this year I'll be there.... other than a long wait for the newer ones to bear.

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I'd love to see your orchard. You are only a few miles away from my sister's summer place. And, we're on the same latitude, only on different sides of the lake. I'm in zone 6b, where you are 5b. My sister has a summer place only a few miles from you.

dmtaylor said:

I have researched the heck out of apples and cider... obsessed over it for a couple years. Bottom line for me and probably most people is to get dwarf rootstock, and maximize your production.

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Dwarf is where all the local orchardists are going, and not just for production; dwarf varieties help them respond to market demands. They can produce early and they are cut down when the variety's demand softens and then replanted with the next flavor of the decade.

dmtaylor said:

Disease resistance could also be a consideration depending on where you live -- ask around.

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Disease resistance is important to me. The area's commercial orchards provide plenty of sprayed apples. I like to keep spraying to a minimum. Looking at the apples I grow I have to wonder, though, if the commercial growers around my property have suppressed a lot of diseases and pests.

dmtaylor said:

Many traditional varieties also really suck for how many apples they produce -- Kingston Black is one of those -- probably not worth the bother.

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You are not the first to question the Kingston Black. It is off my list. I've seen that Porter's Perfection is a great alternative.

dmtaylor said:

Golden Noble comes to mind.

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I'm looking at GoldRush at the moment for its disease resistance.

dmtaylor said:

Most crabapples are also actually bittersharps, always very productive, and tend to make really characterful juice even if you wouldn't want to eat them. Used with discretion as maybe 10% of your total juice, they can add a whole lot of everything you want in your cider.

Click to expand...

Then I should have enough with my Hyslop crab, which is on a semi-dwarf (M7) rootstock. Good to know.

dmtaylor said:

I agree with Quaker about probably skipping getting a sharp on purpose ... Sharp ciders might be your thing... Zestar could actually work here as it kind of straddles the sharp/sweet line (not so dang sharp); and like its relative Honeycrisp, it's super juicy and flavorful.

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My Granny Smith should add some sharpness here, shouldn't it? If so, I may have enough. I have considered Zestar for its disease resistance. However, to be sure, won't Granny Smith fill this sharpness need?

dmtaylor said:

Bittersweets.... For less traditional, how about Arkansas Black?! I love that apple. If I was planting trees again, I'd get several of any or all of these -- you just can't go wrong (can you??).

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The Arkansas Black is on my short list, and with your comment, just moved up. The local commercial/consumer nursery has them, so they should do well in the area. However, they are only selling them on M111 stock, where I'd prefer dwarf. One question, just to make sure I'm clear, does this make a good vintage cider?

dmtaylor said:

And then the sweets.... Honeycrisp is actually a FANTASTIC juice apple, at least with respect to production -- you'll get just a ton of juice, although it's not the most characterful.

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Yes! I love these trees. I have them on a Bud9 rootstock. They don't grow as fast as the Granny Smith, which are on M9 rootstock, but they produced pretty decently on this, their 3rd year. Even with some heavy thinning (not wanting to stress the trees too much in their first year of production) we got 2 bushels on four trees-- and the fruit was huge, like softball/grapefruit huge. I'm fully expecting 3 bu./tree as they mature. Also, its really, really easy to train laterals on these trees.

WVMJ said:

... Staymans are good as are Grimes Goldens and Roxburrys, if you only have space for 5 trees getting different ones is only going to give you a few gallons, but those few gallons are going to be good.

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Staymans also made my short list. However, after reading the posts, I'm thinking I have enough flavor from that category. If I've read the posts wrong on this, let me know.

Altogether, after doing some of my own research (I have both books recommended, read them each twice and then misplaced them), I'm looking at Porter's Perfection as an alternative to Kingston Black, plus Arkansas Black, and GoldRush. That is in addition to my 2 Granny Smith's, 4 Honeycrisps, the d'Anjou Pear and the Hyslop Crab.

Any revisions to the list? Do I have the flavor profiles covered?

I relocated my original dozen trees in year 3, then left for 2.5 years in China. On return I had to do a fair amount of pruning that past couple years to reign them into shape. They are on a mix of mostly semi-dwarf rootstocks. We also had a miserable, late cold, damp period last year when a number of them did blossom. My honeybees nor anything else was out flying at the time, so that didn't help the cause either.

First, two things I don't know are: what type of cider you like, and whether your climate restricts what you can plant. I assume you like West Country / Hereford type cider rather than Kentish, Spanish or Breton styles.

If you want something very tanninic Tremlett's Bitters are great. I really like them, and although you can make single varietal ciders with them, most people prefer them blended. Dabinetts are very reliable but I'm not so mad as I find them a bit full bodied somehow. Like a slightly sweet brandy / cooked apple character. Redstreak, Brown Snout and Harry Masters are decent bittersweet cider apples too. Obviously YM and KB, but you might be a bit fed up with them.

There are some sharp apples out there that have a tremendously good reputation and good character, like Browns Apple. I've planted Tom Putt mainly because it doubles as a cooker. A good amount of sharps is more for Eastern English ciders but they do help to keep the acidity palatable in most ciders (and help it not spoiling).

On the pears, why don't you get a perry pear to blend with the Anjou? You could get a bittersharp like Moorcroft for blending. Blakeneys are very popular fruity and sweet, Gin is light and elegant, Brandy is dark and complex.

PS: Just having some Once Upon a Tree - Priggles Perry. It's 100% Blakeney Red and it's very delicious. Fruity, with plenty of citrus fruit upfront, very slight pear, dry tannin finish yet medium sweet.

You should be able to find Goldrush availble in your local orchards, one of our favorite eating apples and made into a sweet cyser to balance the acid, really good. So you think the local orchards are going to spray everything into oblivion and there wont be any pests left to attack your trees so you wont have to spray much? Then you will become an island of safety for all the pests trying to escape the big sprayed places First step is to drive down to that orchard with 200 kinds of trees and tell them you are a cider maker and see if you can get a list of their varieties and if you can get some of them. Do you have a scratter and press yet? WVMJ

First, thank you for the reply. Very informative.

JKaranka said:

First, two things I don't know are: what type of cider you like, and whether your climate restricts what you can plant.

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I did mention Michigan's fruit belt. This link describes it. The article is also a good source of information on what constitutes ideal apple growing real estate.
http://geo.msu.edu/extra/geogmich/fruit.html

This list of trees and ripening dates at this local orchard indicates I can grow virtually any apple I'd like. Plus, the orchard offers a good source of fruit for experimenting. But, alas, no classic British-style apples.
http://www.treemendus-fruit.com/album_2_027.htm

JKaranka said:

I assume you like West Country / Hereford type cider rather than Kentish, Spanish or Breton styles.

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I have a lot to learn. I'm not sure what I like and am unfamiliar with the styles you mention. Nobody is making that stuff around here. Here, I see reference to New World style cider, which uses a mix of traditional American cider, culinary and dessert apples. This is likely where I'll start.

JKaranka said:

If you want something very tanninic Tremlett's Bitters are great. I really like them, and although you can make single varietal ciders with them, most people prefer them blended.

Dabinetts are very reliable but I'm not so mad as I find them a bit full bodied somehow. Like a slightly sweet brandy / cooked apple character. Redstreak, Brown Snout and Harry Masters are decent bittersweet cider apples too. Obviously YM and KB, but you might be a bit fed up with them.

There are some sharp apples out there that have a tremendously good reputation and good character, like Browns Apple. I've planted Tom Putt mainly because it doubles as a cooker. A good amount of sharps is more for Eastern English ciders but they do help to keep the acidity palatable in most ciders (and help it not spoiling).

Click to expand...

I think I'll look at that after I'm comfortable with working with traditional American apples. For example, I'm learning the Arkansas Black apple makes a good alternative to the Kingston Black. It's easier to grow and more versatile.

JKaranka said:

On the pears, why don't you get a perry pear to blend with the Anjou? You could get a bittersharp like Moorcroft for blending. Blakeneys are very popular fruity and sweet, Gin is light and elegant, Brandy is dark and complex.

Click to expand...

I like this idea a lot. It seems like my anglophile friends like the perry, so this would make sense to me.

Thank you so much for responding.

Buddy

Thanks for the link! I didn't know anything about the fruit belt but it makes sense. I guess temperature wise we have the same effects in South Wales, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall due to the Atlantic. We probably do get a lot more rain, though! Check out some Devon and Somerset cider apple varieties in case they do ok. Regarding Perry I had a 100% Blakeney Red Perry a week ago and it was one of the best drinks I've ever had. Tannins were relatively low, though.

BuddyRichards said:

First, thank you for the reply. Very informative.




I did mention Michigan's fruit belt. This link describes it. The article is also a good source of information on what constitutes ideal apple growing real estate.
http://geo.msu.edu/extra/geogmich/fruit.html

This list of trees and ripening dates at this local orchard indicates I can grow virtually any apple I'd like. Plus, the orchard offers a good source of fruit for experimenting. But, alas, no classic British-style apples.
http://www.treemendus-fruit.com/album_2_027.htm



I have a lot to learn. I'm not sure what I like and am unfamiliar with the styles you mention. Nobody is making that stuff around here. Here, I see reference to New World style cider, which uses a mix of traditional American cider, culinary and dessert apples. This is likely where I'll start.



I think I'll look at that after I'm comfortable with working with traditional American apples. For example, I'm learning the Arkansas Black apple makes a good alternative to the Kingston Black. It's easier to grow and more versatile.



I like this idea a lot. It seems like my anglophile friends like the perry, so this would make sense to me.

Thank you so much for responding.

Buddy

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link! I didn't know anything about the fruit belt but it makes sense. I guess temperature wise we have the same effects in South Wales, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall due to the Atlantic. We probably do get a lot more rain, though! Check out some Devon and Somerset cider apple varieties in case they do ok. Regarding Perry I had a 100% Blakeney Red Perry a week ago and it was one of the best drinks I've ever had. Tannins were relatively low, though.

BuddyRichards said:

First, thank you for the reply. Very informative.




I did mention Michigan's fruit belt. This link describes it. The article is also a good source of information on what constitutes ideal apple growing real estate.
http://geo.msu.edu/extra/geogmich/fruit.html

This list of trees and ripening dates at this local orchard indicates I can grow virtually any apple I'd like. Plus, the orchard offers a good source of fruit for experimenting. But, alas, no classic British-style apples.
http://www.treemendus-fruit.com/album_2_027.htm



I have a lot to learn. I'm not sure what I like and am unfamiliar with the styles you mention. Nobody is making that stuff around here. Here, I see reference to New World style cider, which uses a mix of traditional American cider, culinary and dessert apples. This is likely where I'll start.



I think I'll look at that after I'm comfortable with working with traditional American apples. For example, I'm learning the Arkansas Black apple makes a good alternative to the Kingston Black. It's easier to grow and more versatile.



I like this idea a lot. It seems like my anglophile friends like the perry, so this would make sense to me.

Thank you so much for responding.

Buddy

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Lots of apples I've not seen herd! Of those I grow Cox, Pitmaston Pineapple and Ashmeads Kernel. I managed to buy Mackintosh apples once and I saw Elstar apples on a trip to Germany. Fuji, Gala and Delicious are common here as mass produced apples but very bland.

You should do a research trip to Somerset and Herefordshire.