Counterflow chiller and cold break

How do you remove cold break when you use a counterflow chiller? It seems to me it works by running hot wort through the chiller, which runs against cold water, and into the fermenter. Or do you run it into another pot, whirlpool, and then run it into the fermentor. Or do you recirculate it with a pump back into the boil pot, whirlpool, then run into a fermenter. Could anyone clarify the process with these?

You can do any of those. I just run it all straight into the fermenter for now, but once I complete a rig, it will be recirculated and filtered.

It's not easy to filter out cold break. It's a real gummy bastage.

I do the circulation through a CFC and back to the BK. I stop the pump and wait for 10-15 minutes while the trub/break/hop debris etc drops out before slowly pumping the wort to the fermenters. I have a FB in my BK which does a very good job of filtering out most everything. The debris works as a sort of filter bed as the wort passes through it.

Under normal use it all goes to the fermentor. It is important to note that you'll never filter out all of the cold break in the kettle. It forms over several hours and you need to chill to 30F to get it all out of solution. The only way to get even most of it is by settling and dumping/racking or floating it. If you recirculate the CFC and either have a whirlpool or a suitable filter medium (whole hops on a false bottom works) you can remove some of it.

remilard said:

Under normal use it all goes to the fermentor. It is important to note that you'll never filter out all of the cold break in the kettle. It forms over several hours and you need to chill to 30F to get it all out of solution. The only way to get even most of it is by settling and dumping/racking or floating it. If you recirculate the CFC and either have a whirlpool or a suitable filter medium (whole hops on a false bottom works) you can remove some of it.

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I've read that cold break getting into the fermenter can contribute to chill haze problems, so it would seem that the more break material you can keep out of the beer the better. I'm getting pretty good results filtering through a FB even when using 100% pellet hops. I just brewed 12 gallons of IPA using 13 oz of pellet hops and the wort going into the fermenters was extremely clear. I can't say that invisible cold break did not make it's way into the fermenter, but the wort was looking pretty good IMO. I've only rarely had problems with chill haze. Most of my beer is clear to brilliantly clear.

Catt22 said:

I've read that cold break getting into the fermenter can contribute to chill haze problems, so it would seem that the more break material you can keep out of the beer the better. I'm getting pretty good results filtering through a FB even when using 100% pellet hops. I just brewed 12 gallons of IPA using 13 oz of pellet hops and the wort going into the fermenters was extremely clear. I can't say that invisible cold break did not make it's way into the fermenter, but the wort was looking pretty good IMO. I've only rarely had problems with chill haze. Most of my beer is clear to brilliantly clear.

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I've never heard that leaving cold break in the kettle can contribute to chill haze problems. Can you post the reference for me to read? Thanks!

My CFC works great, but the cold break ends up in the fermenter. I don't filter, and my beers are clear to brilliantly clear also.

Yooper said:

I've never heard that leaving cold break in the kettle can contribute to chill haze problems. Can you post the reference for me to read? Thanks!

My CFC works great, but the cold break ends up in the fermenter. I don't filter, and my beers are clear to brilliantly clear also.

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I'll see if I can locate the reference. I do remember I had to dig around a bit to find the information. I had one batch last year that had a lot of chill haze and I was trying to figure out what was causing it.

I used to use the same procedure that you are currently using. I chilled using a CFC with the output going directly into the fermenters. This didn't seem to cause any problems whatsoever with chill haze or anything else. I never did figure out why that one particular beer was plagued with fairly severe chill haze and I don't remember doing anything much different than usual. I'll see what I can find on the topic.

Here ya go: http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/23-clarity/490-conquer-chill-haze

Catt22 said:

I'll see if I can locate the reference. I do remember I had to dig around a bit to find the information. I had one batch last year that had a lot of chill haze and I was trying to figure out what was causing it.

I used to use the same procedure that you are currently using. I chilled using a CFC with the output going directly into the fermenters. This didn't seem to cause any problems whatsoever with chill haze or anything else. I never did figure out why that one particular beer was plagued with fairly severe chill haze and I don't remember doing anything much different than usual. I'll see what I can find on the topic.

Here ya go: http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/23-clarity/490-conquer-chill-haze

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Thanks! That's the first time I've heard that.

Catt22 said:

I have a FB in my BK which does a very good job of filtering out most everything. The debris works as a sort of filter bed as the wort passes through it.

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Can you give some details on your FB? My plans for my kegs are to invert and use them as a bottom dump vessels. Whirlpooling won't work, so I'll be looking for a FB. I'll still recirc to chill. So far I'm thinking of having a standard FB made and affixing some 30x30 mesh over it, maybe a mesh splatter shield??? I'll stick to whole hops (act like a filter) if that helps the end result.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but it might be relevant to the OP?

Thanks

Can someone fill me in on what an FB is?

FB = False Bottom.

MonkeyWrench said:

Can you give some details on your FB? My plans for my kegs are to invert and use them as a bottom dump vessels. Whirlpooling won't work, so I'll be looking for a FB. I'll still recirc to chill. So far I'm thinking of having a standard FB made and affixing some 30x30 mesh over it, maybe a mesh splatter shield??? I'll stick to whole hops (act like a filter) if that helps the end result.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but it might be relevant to the OP?

Thanks

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Sure, here ya go:

It's the Pie plate type I got from NB. That's the part of the pick up tube that fits down through the hole and holds the FB securely in place.


This is what it looks like after draining the kettle. That's the break material and hop debris remaining from about 6 ounces of pellet hops IIRC. I used 100% pellet hops in that batch.


This is a close up of what was retained on the FB with some scraped away so you can see the depth:


IMO and IME you can still whirlpool when using a FB even with the pickup tube drawing from the center. Some of the very fine particulates will get through, but they don't seem to do any harm and they are not large enough to plug up the pump or anything like that. Anything that manages to get through drops out in the fermenter.

I would not recommend using a 30 X 30 mesh screen over a FB. The screen will almost surely get plugged up and especially so when using pellet hops. IMO, the holes in the standard FB provide a fine enough screen. I have used all whole hops, all pellet hops and a combination of both successfully. A full width FB as you plan to use would be even better than the smaller one I'm using. The more surface area the better. Sabco makes a nice full width FB for kegs: http://www.brew-magic.com/ketl_acc_falsebtm.html

Perfect. Thanks. I just assumed a standard false bottom would be too course, but that looks great.

My totally unscientific experience has been that my beers actually cleared a lot faster when I had a CFC and made a straight run to the fermenters. Now that I have an IC, not so much. I wonder if it has anything to do with cold break being a physical body for particulates to latch on to.

Bobby_M said:

My totally unscientific experience has been that my beers actually cleared a lot faster when I had a CFC and made a straight run to the fermenters. Now that I have an IC, not so much. I wonder if it has anything to do with cold break being a physical body for particulates to latch on to.

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Interesting

I'm not sure I buy the fact that transferring your cold break to the fermentor contributes to haze. Once it's "broke" so to speak, it's denatured and coagulated. It's not likely to go back into solution (where it could form chill haze later). Barring some proteolytic activity in the fermentor (again, not going to happen- enzymes are proteins and thus denatured in the boil) I don't see how the trub could contribute anything meaningful to the beer.

Full disclosure: I always transfer 100% of the contents of my kettle to my fermentor after chilling.

daksin said:

I'm not sure I buy the fact that transferring your cold break to the fermentor contributes to haze. Once it's "broke" so to speak, it's denatured and coagulated. It's not likely to go back into solution (where it could form chill haze later). Barring some proteolytic activity in the fermentor (again, not going to happen- enzymes are proteins and thus denatured in the boil) I don't see how the trub could contribute anything meaningful to the beer.

Full disclosure: I always transfer 100% of the contents of my kettle to my fermentor after chilling.

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Yes, I believe that rapid chilling is required to form cold break. Once formed it can precipitate, under the right conditions. I'm not sure if the cold break would even form without rapid chilling. I believe it is formed only with raid cooling. Similarly hot break will be weak if the boil is not reached quickly.