Help!! Why does my starter look like this

I have been doing yeast starters for the last 8 batches of mine or so. My 2 favorite yeasts have been the white labs east coast ale and the california.

I started a yeast starter on Thursday night for my saturday (today) brew day. However, the starter never had any krausen and the yeast looks to be settling into little balls in the boottom of the flask. When i swirl the flask i get a lot of movement through my air lock. This is an idication to me that the yeast is ok, making CO2. PLease help. Is this OK to use in my beer?? what might be the cause of these little balls?

What kind of yeast is it? Looks a little like 002. Some yeast strains look alot different from others.

i forgot to put that i am using a white labes yeast called German Ale / Kolsch

why are you using an air lock on a starter?

jspence1 said:

why are you using an air lock on a starter?

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That may be your problem

Okay. I'll bight. Why would using an air lock on a starter be a problem? I can only assume it is because you want to keep the starter oxygen rich, and an air lock would starve it of oxygen. Except, then what do you do to seal off the starter so it does not get infected?

Does it smell good? I use an airlock on my starter, that shouldn't be any problem at all. I've never used that yeast, but some of those German yeasts work best at 55-60 F. If your starter is 70-75, it might have finished its fermentation overnight.

What I remember is you use foil to cover starters, because you want some air exchange to keep the yeast plenty oxygenated. As long as foil is over it, nothing can fall in, so no problems with infections.

Secondly some yeast has a "chunky" look to it, nothing wrong with it, just different strains.

Why in the hell would i not use an air lock. If my starter is made from the same things i make my wort with, AND i sanatize everything that comes in contact with my wort, Why would i not put an air lock on it??? Is this common practice by some of you?????

Yes it smells good, a little like wort and a lot like yeast. The temp maybe the key here. it has been warm lately in N Minnesota ~80F and the house has been warmer than usual ~70. Maybe it was a touch warm for this yeast.

kegtoe said:

Why in the hell would i not use an air lock. If my starter is made from the same things i make my wort with, AND i sanatize everything that comes in contact with my wort, Why would i not put an air lock on it??? Is this common practice by some of you?????

Yes it smells good, a little like wort and a lot like yeast. The temp maybe the key here. it has been warm lately in N Minnesota ~80F and the house has been warmer than usual ~70. Maybe it was a touch warm for this yeast.

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The idea behind a starter is to grow yeast. And for that, we need plenty of oxygen. So we usually use a stir plate to "suck in" O2 and put some foil over the top to keep the bad stuff out. I've never used an airlock on a starter. I've never had any problems with a bad starter. But that's just me.

Palmer in "How to Brew":

"Shake the starter vigorously to aerate it. Remove and discard the plastic wrap, insert an airlock and put it somewhere out of direct sunlight. (So it doesn't get too hot in the sun.) If you don't have an airlock that will fit, don't worry. Instead, put a clean piece of plastic wrap over the jar or bottle and secure it loosely with a rubber band. This way the escaping carbon dioxide will be able to vent without exposing the starter to the air."

I think your yeast just worked fast with the higher temp.; you would have to hope it would smell off if something else was living in there. The airlock stuff should be in another thread, but I can't see what advantage you could get to not using one. If airborne bacteria are not getting in, it is because air is not getting in. So, there is no benefit to not using an airlock and an enhanced risk of contamination.

A lot of people (myself included) on HBT use a sanitized piece of foil over the flask. The theory is that it allows for better yeast growth by allowing more oxygen in without allowing bugs to fall in. I have never had a sanitation issue in my starter.

Eric

EricCSU said:

A lot of people (myself included) on HBT use a sanitized piece of foil over the flask. The theory is that it allows for better yeast growth by allowing more oxygen in without allowing bugs to fall in. I have never had a sanitation issue in my starter.

Eric

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DING DING DING!!! You win the prize!

You don't need an airlock because you need the oxygen to get into the container. The SANITIZED aluminum foil over top will keep insects out and other floating particles that can cause infection. The yeast will be throwing off CO2 from fermentation and thus an infection isn't something to worry about. How do you think many breweries still do open fermentation vessels?

Pilgarlic said:

Palmer in "How to Brew":

"Shake the starter vigorously to aerate it. Remove and discard the plastic wrap, insert an airlock and put it somewhere out of direct sunlight. (So it doesn't get too hot in the sun.) If you don't have an airlock that will fit, don't worry. Instead, put a clean piece of plastic wrap over the jar or bottle and secure it loosely with a rubber band. This way the escaping carbon dioxide will be able to vent without exposing the starter to the air."

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Have to agree with the rest of the above posters. I stopped using an airlock years ago. Sanitized piece of foil works fine. The above quote is outdated in my opinion. Many things have changed over the years (secondaries, sanitizing methods, just to name a few....). I've noticed since I stopped using the airlocks that layer of yeast seems larger. Course.....It isn't like I'm measuring it or anything....

Hammy71 said:

Have to agree with the rest of the above posters. I stopped using an airlock years ago. Sanitized piece of foil works fine. The above quote is outdated in my opinion. Many things have changed over the years (secondaries, sanitizing methods, just to name a few....). I've noticed since I stopped using the airlocks that layer of yeast seems larger. Course.....It isn't like I'm measuring it or anything....

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I agree. I've also had better results since I've stopped using an airlock. It would kill me to hear the poor guy who uses an airlock with a stir-plate.

[soapbox]

Common guys, a little common sense. You sound like a bunch of noobs on your first forum.

You have yeast putting out Co2. Thus you have positive pressure in the starter container. Ok, there may be a slight difference in pressure between an airlock and foil. The slight added back pressure from a tiny airlock is not enough to restrict the yeast growth much at all, if any.

Plus, I don’t see how oxygen is getting in there with foil covering the opening. (Unless of course there is a major temp swing or a storm front comes through.)

I think those that have had better luck may have just learned to produce a better starter wort, oxygenate better, temp control or something.

Guys, on your next starter, do two, one with foil and one with an airlock and show me pics. Otherwise there are too many variables involved.

Ridiculing the poster is no way to educate.

[/soapbox]

As for the original post’s question, I just did a brew with American Ale Blend from White Labs. Man, that yeast cake looked nasty. It was curdled real bad. I say use it.

Most of us who use sanitized foil on top use a stir plate. That draws in O2. If I did not use a stir plate, I might consider using an airlock too. Or maybe not.

More information on using a Stir Plate with a starter:

http://brewiki.org/StirPlate

HalfPint said:

I agree. I've also had better results since I've stopped using an airlock. It would kill me to hear the poor guy who uses an airlock with a stir-plate.

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Me too, they take off quicker, and I actually have noticed and increase in actually pitching at high krausen. I just had a starter go to high krausen in less than 8 hours.

Beer_Guy said:

[soapbox]

Common guys, a little common sense. You sound like a bunch of noobs on your first forum.

You have yeast putting out Co2. Thus you have positive pressure in the starter container. Ok, there may be a slight difference in pressure between an airlock and foil. The slight added back pressure from a tiny airlock is not enough to restrict the yeast growth much at all, if any.

Plus, I don’t see how oxygen is getting in there with foil covering the opening. (Unless of course there is a major temp swing or a storm front comes through.)

I think those that have had better luck may have just learned to produce a better starter wort, oxygenate better, temp control or something.

Guys, on your next starter, do two, one with foil and one with an airlock and show me pics. Otherwise there are too many variables involved.

Ridiculing the poster is no way to educate.

[/soapbox]

Click to expand...

Here's some common sense for you

The purpose of an airlock is to to act as a VALVE to release excess gas from whatever you using it on. Almost immedietly when yeast begins produce co2 the first thing to go is any OXYGEN not immedietly consumed by the yeast. An airlock is is meant to RELEASE stuff from inside the fermenter while preventing Oxygen from getting in.

By crimping a sanitized piece of foil on top of your starter, you are PREVENTING the oxygen from getting VOIDED OUT as it would in an airlock. So if the oxygen is going to be trapped in the vessel, and guess what? If the oxygen isn't getting kicked out of there it is going to be more readily utilized by the yeast.

Is that too difficutlt to grasp? It makes perfect sense to me.

And I didn't see ANYONE ridicule the op.

jgourd said:

Most of us who use sanitized foil on top use a stir plate. That draws in O2. …

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Agreed, to a point.

The wort on a stir plate draws air molecules down into the wort via the vortex.
This air absorption into the wort does not cause a negative pressure inside the vessel to draw in more fresh air. The wort simply becomes slightly larger containing more air molecules.

Something to consider:
When you first pour in the starter wort, the vessel contains air with some O2.
What O2 that is not pulled down into the wort is pushed out the foil gap and replaced with Co2 as the yeast pig out.
The way you are doing it now is just putting some of that expelled Co2 back into the wort.
Why not use a two-hole stopper and on one side an airlock letting the Co2 out and the other with a very slow pure O2 feed? The extra O2 might produce an outstanding crop of yeasties.

Anyone got the setup to try it?

Boy, only on HBT do we have to theorize the difference between an airlock vs foil. I personally use foil with a starter, but the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure if there's a huge difference between the two. I like foil because it's so easy and it lets me aerate the starter easily. With my ferments, I also use a blow off tube with unsanitized water....some HBT seem to swear by votka or sanitized water for their gas barrier. IMO, there's no harm by a suck back with a blow off tube, and an o2 barrier exists with any barrier you create. Heck, some beers are even created completely exposed to open air too. Beer is pretty forgiving when you think about it.

HalfPint said:

I agree. I've also had better results since I've stopped using an airlock. It would kill me to hear the poor guy who uses an airlock with a stir-plate.

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I guess this one post set me off. Sorry!

The OP kept asking why and the answers just did not make sense to me.

Spinning wort inside a vessel will not suck fresh air into the vessel unless it is wide open. It will suck the air on top of the wort down into the wort. Once foil it placed on top the air inside is trapped and Co2 buildup will push any unabsorbed O2 out with it.

There should be NO difference between the use of an airlock and foil. Both seal in any turbulence which might increase the O2 in the vessel which would be used to help increase yeast yield.

Perhaps a quick blast of O2 before putting the foil on would be helpful. Just a thought.

the yeast looks to be settling into little balls in the boottom of the flask. When i swirl the flask i get a lot of movement through my air lock. This is an idication to me that the yeast is ok,

Click to expand...

Here is a picture how my starter looks like, depending on yeast strain.
You can see the yeast in suspension.


I aerate 24/7 until I get my required yeast slurry than stop the aeration and let it ferment out.
Step up process I use


Yeast after 1 week, started with 100ml.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Beer_Guy said:

Ridiculing the poster is no way to educate.

Click to expand...

Seems more like we're the ones being ridiculed

Beer_Guy said:

[soapbox]

Common guys, a little common sense. You sound like a bunch of noobs on your first forum.

Click to expand...

kegtoe said:

Why in the hell would i not use an air lock

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Passive-aggressiveness aside But here's some advice: when Revvy seems to be quite sure about something, 99% of the time you should at least take it into consideration. The airlock, as he says, is a one-way valve meaning there would be absolutely no way for air to get back in. If there are several entry points for airflow (as with foil) then plenty can get in or (more importantly) stay in, especially at the beginning before full fermentation has actually occurred and the CO2 is purging the O2.

Yeast start out with aerobic respiration (as the name implies, oxygen is vital) during which ATP is created and stored and once the oxygen is used up it begins anaerobic respiration which is when reproduction and fermentation are occurring and the yeast are throwing off CO2.

If you allow for more O2 to get into/remain in the growler/bottle/flask you use to hold your starter, the yeast will perform better during aerobic respiration. This will allow the yeast to store more ATP needed for fermentation and reproduction during anaerobic respiration.

In essence, the foil allows more oxygen to get into solution when it's needed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but CO2 is heavier than O2. Thus, unless you have something causing the air to circulate the CO2 released by the yeast will push the O2 up and out the top. All an airlock does is keep things from (a) falling in and (b) if there is a bit of turbulence it keeps things from ... slipping in. So, unless you have something that is going to disturb the air at the top, and exchange the air inside the neck of the bottle, you are still going to get a bed of CO2 on top of your starter. Thus, no more oxygen than what you put into the system.

Thus, I have to side with the chap (Beer_Guy) that said that you would want to inject O2 at a slow or periodic rate while running the starter.

Except, aren't there problems with too much oxygen getting to the yeast?

Isn't the purpose of a stir plate to keep the yeast in suspension? Rather than letting it settle to the bottom, thus increasing its exposed surface area within the fluid and its ability to attain nutrients and reproduce?

maztec said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but CO2 is heavier than O2. Thus, unless you have something causing the air to circulate the CO2 released by the yeast will push the O2 up and out the top. All an airlock does is keep things from (a) falling in and (b) if there is a bit of turbulence it keeps things from ... slipping in. So, unless you have something that is going to disturb the air at the top, and exchange the air inside the neck of the bottle, you are still going to get a bed of CO2 on top of your starter. Thus, no more oxygen than what you put into the system.

Thus, I have to side with the chap (Beer_Guy) that said that you would want to inject O2 at a slow or periodic rate while running the starter.

Except, aren't there problems with too much oxygen getting to the yeast?

Isn't the purpose of a stir plate to keep the yeast in suspension? Rather than letting it settle to the bottom, thus increasing its exposed surface area within the fluid and its ability to attain nutrients and reproduce?

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My understanding is that immediately after yeast is pitched, they undergo a period where they build up their cell walls and reproduce, and this happens PRIOR to any CO2 production, and prior to any of the sugars being used up. It is during this period of time that oxygen is used by the yeast, along with FAN and nutrients. So no mass CO2 "blanket" is created during this time (though some is produced by some yeast which have begun fermentation), and oxygen is used by most of the yeast. Having a permeable "barrier" (i.e. foil instead of airlock) would allow oxygen to enter into the starter container simply by diffusion (diffusion would keep the density of oxygen similar to that outside the container). The amount of oxygen which could enter the starter container would begin to taper off as more and more yeast switch to the primary fermentation phase, and more CO2 begins to sit on the wort.

It is also my understanding that when creating a starter it is important to try to keep as much oxygen available to the yeast so they get the healthiest they can. That's why you aerate often, to get more of the oxygen that exists in the container's airspace into the solution, or to basically just help along the diffusion process by breaking up the CO2 blanket and allowing more O2 diffusion into the wort solution. THAT'S probably where the benefit of a stir plate comes into play - by keeping the air mixed up.

If it wasn't clear above, the first phase where oxygen uptake is important overlaps with the onset of primary fermentation... so it isn't like the yeast hit a trigger point where all of them begin fermentation at one time.

In essence, I don't think any of you are wrong about this whole affair. As with most things there's a gray area - foil probably helps better with allowing more O2 diffusion for a while, but eventually that benefit is negated by the CO2 blanket which begins to amass as more and more yeast switch to the primary fermentation phase.

That's my understanding anyway...

Beer_Guy said:

I guess this one post set me off. Sorry!

The OP kept asking why and the answers just did not make sense to me.

Spinning wort inside a vessel will not suck fresh air into the vessel unless it is wide open. It will suck the air on top of the wort down into the wort. Once foil it placed on top the air inside is trapped and Co2 buildup will push any unabsorbed O2 out with it.

There should be NO difference between the use of an airlock and foil. Both seal in any turbulence which might increase the O2 in the vessel which would be used to help increase yeast yield.

Perhaps a quick blast of O2 before putting the foil on would be helpful. Just a thought.

Click to expand...

I imagine that you've taken a chemistry class or two, but I don't agree with you. The reason I say this is because when you have active fermentation inside of a vessel that's 3/4 of the way full with the fermenting liquid, all of the head space will be filled with a heavy blanket of Co2. Then, when that vessel is capped with an airlock that ensures no oxygen can get in, it completely defeats the point of a stir-plate which DOES draw oxygen into the liquid. With that said, using an airlock with a stir-plate completely defeats the point.

BLAHBLAHBLAH

Foil baby its the only way too go. Hell I use foil on my primary for 2 days before I switch over to an airlock.

Brew-boy said:

Foil baby its the only way too go. Hell I use foil on my primary for 2 days before I switch over to an airlock.

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I take it you ferment in a carboy then? It seems it would be a pita to try to cover a bucket, unless those really long boxes of reynolds heavy duty are wide enough.

After a lot of thought on the matter, I agree that foil is better.

Here is why...

Since Co2 is heavier it will be pushed by centrifugal force to the outside of the spinning air inside the vessel. Since the airlock exit is usually dead center, any positive pressure will cause the air in the center (O2) to exit first.

Here is another thought…
Since you want to evacuate as little of the O2 as possible, a large mouth round container would be better. This would cause the beginning Co2 to be pushed out of the gaps in the foil cover at the edges sooner than with a tapered small mouth container. The taper will cause the spinning Co2 to collect at the widest part until it builds up enough to reach the lip at the top.

Ok, maybe I am over thinking it. But hey, I just want to understand it. That is what is fun about this hobby for me.

ClaudiusB; I noticed you’re aerating 24/7 for the growth stage. Looks like you get excellent results. I like it.

You can answer many of these questions by going to MrMalty.com
(http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html) and progressively selecting the different ways in which to treat your starter. There is a dramatic difference upon your final growth rate.

A very experienced friend of mine told me about this and let me tell you that if you do the following, you are going to make sure you do NOT FORGET the foam control or that yeast is gonna crawl right out of that flask! (ask me how I know...) And, should you step up a starter for a second round, jump back!

Anyway, put the starter on a stir-plate and and insert the tube from an aquarium pump (with in-line sterile filter). The tube does not have to be immersed in the wort (used to do this but there is no diff in leaving it above the wort).

Now your concern might be that you can easily generate too much yeast. My friend was right!

maztec said:

Except, then what do you do to seal off the starter so it does not get infected?

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a sanitized piece of aluminum foil. bacteria don't move up and the airborne ones cant get around the foil.

1. Entire batches of beer are made in
big open fermenters, but those beers
are made with huge slurries of active
yeast. An airlock is a wise precaution
when you are not pitching directly
on a yeast cake because of the lag,
which will allow wild yeast to float
down into your beer on dust and begin
to reproduce.

2. This business about O2 uptake is
really off the mark. O2 is taken up
by the yeast before CO2 is produced,
it is a necessary food, but once the
CO2 is produce, ALL of the O2 is blown
out of solution and none gets in, airlock,
stirring, or no. The only thing stirring
is useful for is preventing blowoffs,
because it breaks up the gas bubbles
faster. If you are scaling up your yeast,
you need to wait for CO2 to subside,
then aerate the fresh wort. Aeration
during fermentation is useless.

As far as the op's concern about the
appearance of the yeast: they come in
many different shapes and even the same
yeast can flocculate in a million different
shapes depending on the concentration
of the wort, Ca content and a million other
things. Unless it smells bad, I wouldn't
worry about it.

rayg said:

2. This business about O2 uptake is
really off the mark. O2 is taken up
by the yeast before CO2 is produced,
it is a necessary food, but once the
CO2 is produce, ALL of the O2 is blown
out of solution and none gets in, airlock,
stirring, or no. The only thing stirring
is useful for is preventing blowoffs,
because it breaks up the gas bubbles
faster. If you are scaling up your yeast,
you need to wait for CO2 to subside,
then aerate the fresh wort. Aeration
during fermentation is useless.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree with #2, at this part: "The only thing stirring
is useful for is preventing blowoffs, because it breaks up the gas bubbles
faster."

That's incorrect. A stir plate is useful to keep the yeast in suspension. Not for preventing blowoffs. There is indeed some gas exchange, but the main reason to use a stirplate is to keep the yeast in suspension.

Revvy said:

I take it you ferment in a carboy then? It seems it would be a pita to try to cover a bucket, unless those really long boxes of reynolds heavy duty are wide enough.

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When I do use a carboy that is my method. I go back and forth between the conical and the jug.

I don't know if it was mentioned or not, but I also think the back pressure an airlock will apply to that relatively small volume of starter (wort) will probably cause a slight increase of stress on the yeast, and I'm assuming that's not the best thing for creating a clean yeast.

So, looking at the link provided to Mr. Malty's Pitching Rate Calculator, I note that I do the "periodic aeration/shaking" method. Which means, all things considered, I'm fairly close to the continuous aeration and stir plate methods - as opposed to the "simple starter" or "simple starter with o2 at start" methods.

So, unless I'm doing a 10 gallon batch, where the difference in starter volume is almost half a gallon, I don't see a lot of point in taking that next step in cost and time...

Eh?

YooperBrew said:

I have to disagree with #2, at this part: "The only thing stirring
is useful for is preventing blowoffs, because it breaks up the gas bubbles
faster."

That's incorrect. A stir plate is useful to keep the yeast in suspension. Not for preventing blowoffs. There is indeed some gas exchange, but the main reason to use a stirplate is to keep the yeast in suspension.

Click to expand...

But what does keeping it in suspension do?
How do you keep it in suspension in your
5 gal carboy? Answer: The CO2 produced keeps
it in suspension until it flocculates.

The problem with all this stuff is that
it's adapted from the practice of large
scale brewing. For example, large fermentation
vessels are jacketed to control temp, because
it's the only effective way to control the
temperature exactly with such large bulk.
But that's not necessary with 5 gal carboys.
Likewise, if you are growing yeast on a
ton scale, the yeast cake is going to be
huge and the bottom of the cake is not
going to be exposed to the wort, so you
stir it to get a few percent more yeast
cells.

The oxygenation part of this is what kills me.
If you make a fermenter out of a long thin
tube, put holes in the bottom to blow air
through, then the air bubbles will be in
contact with the liquid for a relatively
long time because of the length of the tube.
If you do this, AND stir it rapidly, you
will get better yeast growth. But using
a mag stir bar to stir yeast in an erlenmayer
isn't going to do anything for your
oxygenation because the CO2 produced prevents
any O2 from getting in. The best you can
do is aerate well before the fermentation
begins (the stirrer will do that, but you
don't need to use it, you can just shake it)
and aerate any fresh wort that you add if
you are propagating again.

The op was making a Kolsch. Does that
require some super-precise amount of yeast
to worry about? I've made made starters in a
quart bottle, with the only aeration some
shaking at the beginning, they always come
out fine.

Ray

Please do not word wrap on your own it's impossible to read

The stir-plate keeps the yeast and sugars and nutrients in full contact for maximum reproduction in faster periods of time.

You do not stir-plate the beer because we do not like the taste of wet cardboard.