Just got my Ward Labs report - how's it look?

If anyone can help I'd greatly appreciate it as I don't know squat about water chemistry, up till now I've been using the city water report and the simple Brewer's Friend water Calc to figure out lactic acid amounts. I was also curious to know about any Chloramines that may be present in my water but I'm not sure of this report can help with that info? So is there anything that needs major adjustment? Thanks!



Rev.

Pretty please, with a cherry on top.

I'm not enough knowledgeable sorry but I want to know what is the difference between total hardness and permanent hardness? My report gives me permanent hardness as 68 ppm.

Is that good?

The only thing I could say would be that your chloride level is pretty high and it would be good if you could reduce it somehow. Other than that maybe the sulfate could be a bit higher depending on the style like ipas -with my knowledge- you can already make good beer with that water.

Let's hear more from the experts!

This doesn't tell you anything about chlorine or chloramines unfortunately. if it's city water, you can pretty much guarantee it's treated with chlorine to kill any bad bacteria, so your best bet is to treat it anyways.

collect your brewing water the night before, and let it sit out - the chlorine will evaporate. Then use a 1/4 tablet of campden per 5g and that will rid your water of chloramine.

As for major adjustments, it really depends on what kind of beer you're brewing, and what profile you're trying to achieve. There are tons of tools out there - personally i find bru'nwater the best, but it can be overwhelming at first. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

i started with brewer's friend as well and found it helpful until i wanted to know/understand more. that's when bru'n water came into play!

good luck.

cheers,

Not terrible. Sodium and chloride are on the high end but not much you can do besides diluting them down with RO. Even still, they're not bad. Aside from that, adjust your pH with lactic and you're good for many styles. Decent water overall. Since you don't know chloramine/chlorine presence then always use campden tablets to treat your brewing water and you're good.

It doesn't look like the chlorine/chloramine content is listed. It's a safe bet if you have city water instead of well water theres chlorine/chloramine. If you aren't going to filter then you may as well take the cheap precaution of using campden tablets (instead of worrying how much or if its there, it doesn't hurt to throw it in there if you are on city water).

It looks like you have nice high chloride content for making maltier beers. Also it doesn't look like you have crazy high alkalinity so that makes it slightly easier to adjust.

Your sulfate is the only one that looks very low at 4. You might find it difficult with that chloride/sulfate ratio to make pleasing IPAs/hoppy styles. If you are planning a hoppy beer you may want to dilute with RO and then add sulfate back in.

Rev2010 said:

If anyone can help I'd greatly appreciate it as I don't know squat about water chemistry, up till now I've been using the city water report and the simple Brewer's Friend water Calc to figure out lactic acid amounts. I was also curious to know about any Chloramines that may be present in my water but I'm not sure of this report can help with that info? So is there anything that needs major adjustment? Thanks!



Rev.

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Looks like OK water for brewing if you can bring the Na and CL down, which of course you can.

• I would cut it 50:50 with RO water
• Add CaSo4 as needed to bring back up the levels of Ca, and SO4
• Add a little CaCl if more Cl is needed

These additions will target your planned profile.

Plug the info into Bru'n Water and you will be able to play with the numbers till the virtual water is how you want it giving you your adjusted water.

This adjusted water, volumes of mash/sparge and grain bill are plugged in and it gets you your predicted mash pH. (adjust as needed with acid source of your choosing to meet your mash pH target)

If you sparge, acidify the sparge water with some lactic acid. (For simplicity I would advise treating all the water identically initially) After you mash, make the appropriate further acid additions to the sparge water remaining in your HLT as needed based on volume and the predictions in the software

For me. I use acid malt as needed in the mash to bring the pH down to the planned target. I don't sparge but if I did it would be a simple task to add lactic acid to the sparge water. The acidification of the sparge water is of far greater relevance to flyspargers.


Assume chloramines are present. 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons solves that issue in an instant.

ArkotRamathorn said:

Your sulfate is the only one that looks very low at 4. You might find it difficult with that chloride/sulfate ratio to make pleasing IPAs/hoppy styles. If you are planning a hoppy beer you may want to dilute with RO and then add sulfate back in.

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Thanks! Yeah that is one thing I noticed, my IPA wasn't very "IPA'y", seemed to be less bitter than I expected. Was still a great beer, just not something that I think hopheads would appreciate being called an IPA. So, this time around (3rd time brewing it) I just used a little more bittering hops and now, at least the sample, tasted very IPA'y. Still in the keg carbonating, will know for sure Thursday.

Typically all my maltier beers come out awesome - Amber, Porter, Pumpkin, etc. Even when I did the Cream of Three Crops it tasted totally fine. My main issue is with wheats (hefe's and wits) having a tart tangy aftertaste not present in the commercial versions. I'm thinking it's due to the shorter time in the fermenter than I keep my other ales and have a hefeweizen in there now that I am waiting a full four weeks to keg, so that experiment will let me know if time is the factor there or possibly it's my water.

Thanks everyone for all the replies!

Rev.

Rev2010 said:

Thanks! Yeah that is one thing I noticed, my IPA wasn't very "IPA'y", seemed to be less bitter than I expected. Was still a great beer, just not something that I think hopheads would appreciate being called an IPA. So, this time around (3rd time brewing it) I just used a little more bittering hops and now, at least the sample, tasted very IPA'y. Still in the keg carbonating, will know for sure Thursday.

Typically all my maltier beers come out awesome - Amber, Porter, Pumpkin, etc. Even when I did the Cream of Three Crops it tasted totally fine. My main issue is with wheats (hefe's and wits) having a tart tangy aftertaste not present in the commercial versions. I'm thinking it's due to the shorter time in the fermenter than I keep my other ales and have a hefeweizen in there now that I am waiting a full four weeks to keg, so that experiment will let me know if time is the factor there or possibly it's my water.

Thanks everyone for all the replies!

Rev.

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Keep in mind your sulfate is actually 12 (4x3) because Ward reports as SO4-S instead of SO4. See Bru'N water for the better/official explanation. Overall, still pretty low for those more minerally water profiles.

stpug said:

Keep in mind your sulfate is actually 12 (4x3) because Ward reports as SO4-S instead of SO4. See Bru'N water for the better/official explanation. Overall, still pretty low for those more minerally water profiles.

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Thanks for the heads up! I was playing with some profiles in Brewer's Friend for a Hefeweizen grain bill and it looks like if I were to add some gypsum and calcium chloride (say about 3 grams each) it puts my Overall Water Report numbers all within "normal", and also would appear to lessen the amount of lactic acid needed to get to my target mash pH. Sound reasonable? Thanks again, and sorry for the water-noobness


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

Thanks for the heads up! I was playing with some profiles in Brewer's Friend for a Hefeweizen grain bill and it looks like if I were to add some gypsum and calcium chloride (say about 3 grams each) it puts my Overall Water Report numbers all within "normal", and also would appear to lessen the amount of lactic acid needed to get to my target mash pH. Sound reasonable? Thanks again, and sorry for the water-noobness


Rev.

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I'm not overly familiar with the mineral profile of a hefeweizen but my gut instinct says that it would be lowish. While you certainly have some room to play with gypsum if you'd like, your chloride level is at the high end. Rarely, if ever, are you wanting to get above 100ppm of chloride.

I would venture a guess that keeping your sulfate level at sub-60s for a hefeweizen would be wise. Maybe even around 50 or less.

With mineral/salt additions, I frequently find that "less is more". Start with less and work your way to more if you think it needs it in the future.

Using lactic acid 88% is a perfectly fine way of controlling water/mash/BK/beer pH and you should not shy away from using it. As long as you can keep the usage sub-taste threshold then it's a wonderful tool to have and use. This begs the questions, what is the taste threshold of lactic acid? I don't know and it will certainly vary person to person. I like to limit myself to <~7ml total per 5 gallon batch unless the style can cope with a lactic flavor (saison maybe, berliner, gose, etc). I usually find that I'm in the 5-6ml range for base grain dominant beers. Beers with high amounts of crystal or roast, or high OG beers, take much less lactic acid.

Hope this helps.

stpug said:

This begs the questions, what is the taste threshold of lactic acid? I don't know and it will certainly vary person to person. I like to limit myself .

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For you @stpug

lactate taste threshold experiment by the legend braukaiser.

stpug said:

your chloride level is at the high end. Rarely, if ever, are you wanting to get above 100ppm of chloride.

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Is the only way to lower chloride to cut with RO water?


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

Is the only way to lower chloride to cut with RO water?


Rev.

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As I understand it, yes. Sodium and chloride will not precipitate with any usual methods and cannot be filtered by any normal water filters. RO and distilled are the best ways to reduce both of those chemicals/minerals.

But, again, I would not personally do anything about those levels unless I'm aiming for a specific style that those elements would negatively affect (lite lagers, pilsners, things of that nature). Most malty beers will be aided by those levels, and most bitter beers can stand up to those levels provided you notch up the sulfate levels. Blending your water down 50/50 for bitter styles would make for a great comparison on how much your pure tap water affects those styles. Brew your favorite bitter/hoppy beer back to back; once with 100% tap and adjust sulfate levels, then brew again with 50/50 water and adjust sulfate to same levels, and compare results.

Rev2010 said:

Is the only way to lower chloride to cut with RO water?


Rev.

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Yep, or run the water through an anionic resin bed that replaces all anions (like chloride) with OH ions. You typically run it alongside a cationic resin bed (which produces H ions and the combination results in H2O...the deadly poisonous dihydrogen monoxide. You'll be taking your life into your own hands!

Hi all, sorry to bump this but I just wanted to ask something. Since posting this and playing with the water calc in Brewer's Friend I've just been adding .5 gram per gallon of gypsum to my mash and sparge water as with my water info it shows it as 1.0 balanced profile doing so. I've also been using one half campden tablet for my total water volume (averaging around 8 gallons or so for 5 gallon batches). I've done 3 beers this way so far but the first one I did with the gypsum won't be ready to drink until Thursday night.

So, I just wanted to ask, based on the info provided on the first page of this thread does .5gm of gypsum per gallon of water seem to be an ok treatment for an "overall" balanced water profile or are there other additions I should make? Not going to do RO, just can't for many reasons. I'm also cutting back on the amount of lactic acid I use. For some reason all calcs are too high in their lactic suggestions based on my water report and grain data from what I'm measuring with my pH meter. I knew this early on but am finding some beers that hit a pH of 5.2 (lower than I shoot for as I go for 5.3 - 5.4 typically) come out a bit boring and watery. Now I'm shooting for more around 5.35 - 5.4 pH measured at room temp.



Rev.

Since water profile is pretty style specific, it's hard to say if your additions are an "ok treatment". I suspect that you are seeing 80s ppm for sufate and chloride which give you that 1.0 ratio. If you're talking about a british or american beer then that should be fine but you might push it a little higher one way or another depending on style. If you're talking about most lagers then those numbers are probably on the high side with some exceptions. I would say that you're probably in a safe place in terms of too much or too little, but learning more about "why" you would go either direction is more important.

The ratio (e.g. "1.0 balanced") is deceiving and should generally just be ignored. The overall goal of water treatment is much more about the quantity of individual minerals/salts/ions than it is about the ratio of two. The usual example provided is that 2ppm sufate and 2ppm chloride is a 1.0 ratio, and so is 200ppm sulfate and 200ppm chloride, however the resulting beers will taste worlds apart (flaccid vs minerally).

Lactic acid has been given a stigma of somehow being bad or bad flavored or "not the best choice" in beer brewing (I have may have added a little emphasis to that ). It's usage has also been relegated to scant amounts not to exceed some lowish quantity. I myself do not agree with these notions and have not experienced the kinds of outcomes that are suggested for "more than suggested" use - within reason. Most recently, a german pilsner, I used nearly double the recommended threshold that Kai suggests and the resulting beer is wonderful (perhaps my best yet). Alkalinity, IMO, is much more important to control than the amount of lactic acid you use, and if that means using a little more lactic acid then I say do it. Just my opinion, of course.

@stpug - I don't lager at all so no Pilsners yet, most of my beers (being ales) are my Coconut Porter which I don't need to water treat as it comes out awesome as is, my IPA which up till yesterday I've only used lactic acid and comes out awesome, Belgian wits, Hefeweizen which I'm still not nailing, my Amber ale which was the watery one at 5.2ph when it's been great before when I never even used lactic acid, pumpkin ales, etc. A decent gamut of beers, most of which I consider excellent or am happy with but some I'm still working hard to nail.

I don't think lactic is bad to use in higher than average amounts either, my comment was more about a lower pH, at least that was my observation and may not be a result of the pH. I'm just looking for a good general water profile that should work decently across a good amount of styles.


Rev.

I don't think that there is any one general water profile that's good across most style when the style you brew vary as much as yours do. Your best bet here is to use Bru'N water's water profiles for beers based on color. They put you in the general ballpark for those colors of beers (which are generally associated with a style), and then you can tweak this way or that based on your observations and wants. For instance, Bru'N water has an 'Amber' colored beer category and within that category you can opt for malty/full, balanced, dry/bitter. The number's you'll be aiming to reach will vary only slightly within the Amber category but should help to push a beer from malty/full all the way to bitter/dry.

If you absolutely wanted a single water profile to go with for all styles then I would say what you're doing (tap water treated for chlorine/chloramines and 80s ppm sufate/chloride) is about as good as you can go.

Check out Bru'N water for sure. It may look complex but after going through it a couple times for real batches it's pretty easy.

Well, I'm happy to report I've tasted the first beer done with the full water treatment I'm now doing - lactic acid (been doing for a while),campden tablets (used on the past few beers), and gypsum. Did a Patersbier that I very slightly modified and the beer tastes the cleanest I've made so far. Zero off tastes. Some of my other beers have been excellent with zero off tastes but those are beers with more flavors that could possibly mask any small off tastes. Often a get a slight metallic tangy taste in some of my beers and none of that is present in this one. So that's reassuring. Currently I have my Belgian Wit and my IPA in the fermenters. The IPA always comes out great but I've always had that tangy off taste in my Wit's and Hefeweizen's so I'm looking forward to my Wit in a few weeks. And being I've brewed both the IPA and Wit many times before I have a good frame of reference for when I tastes these two in the coming weeks.


Rev.