Sour Brews

ReverseApacheMaster said:

This is not all necessarily accurate information. As OP pointed out, he used hops and still had the same problem. It can't just be discounted as lacto any more than a generic infection. There are many, many other species of bacteria and yeast that can and do infect beer. Homebrewers tend to be limited in believing that lacto, pedio, brett and wild yeast are the only possible options. They are not.

Presuming he did as he said and bleached, rinsed and sanitized with star-san, he should not have chronic infection following that unless he did something afterwards he didn't tell us. It is statistically implausible that he has a strain of some bacteria so powerful it can survive bleach and star-san but take eight days to start souring a beer, after sacc fermentation ended. And if he does have that immortal bacteria in his house, replacing all the plastic in his house will do nothing to stop it.

While we don't know all the facts here, from what we have been told, an infection at this point just seems implausible. There are several other things that can make a beer taste sour or seem sour. Particularly chemical reactions.

The best thing for OP would be to find another local homebrewer to walk through the brew day and look for the problems. It's a cheaper option than ditching $150 of plastic for something that may or may not fix the problem.

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What other bacteria infect beer? As far as I know, only sacc, brett, pedio, lacto, enterobacter, acetobacter, and lactobaccilus can infect beer. I am not sure what a generic infection is, but from what I have read and my experience using things other than sacc, I have never heard of other bacteria and I am pretty sure it is lacto. When he said lemonade, that ruled out acetobacter.

It has nothing to do with sanitary equipment. Your beer is probably going to ferment if you let it sit long enough. Normally, we use sacc before anything else can get hold. Like I said, acetobacter and lacto are everywhere. So is brett, for that matter.

rexbanner said:

What other bacteria infect beer? As far as I know, only sacc, brett, pedio, lacto, enterobacter, acetobacter, and lactobaccilus can infect beer. I am not sure what a generic infection is, but from what I have read and my experience using things other than sacc, I have never heard of other bacteria and I am pretty sure it is lacto. When he said lemonade, that ruled out acetobacter.

It has nothing to do with sanitary equipment. Your beer is probably going to ferment if you let it sit long enough. Normally, we use sacc before anything else can get hold. Like I said, acetobacter and lacto are everywhere. So is brett, for that matter.

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A lot, actually. Due to a number of factors in the brewing process most would-be infecting lifeforms are kept at bay but there are definitely more than just pedio, lacto and brett. Other bacteria, like Zymomonas, can and do infect beer. They will even survive through fermentation and find things to eat after sacc has finished its work. Wild yeast easily find their way into beers and can eat dextrins and starches that the sacc strains we use won't. Some produce various levels of acids, phenols, esters, etc. Some yeast and bacteria can consume starches, proteins, esters, phenols and all sorts of other leftovers of sacc fermentation. Homebrewers tend to believe there is a small universe of possible spoilants but (professional and academic) brewing literature is clear there is a lot more out there.

So while it is possible that OP still has an infection, it's improbable that the same infection persists after both bleach and star-san, unless there is something in OP's process opening the door to infection. Based on the information provided, we don't know what it is, which is why I said the best option is to have another homebrewer observe the process to find possible problems. If a chronic, aggressive bacteria exists in his home, buying new equipment or more sanitation probably isn't enough.

One thing that suggests the problem is not an infection is the timeline. If the beer tastes ok after four days but gets intensely sour at eight days, that is not the usual process for lacto or other common acid-producing bacteria. Lacto likes to get down right away and eat those simple sugars. The sourness would be more likely to show in taste when there is a lot of food available rather than less. However, it is possible there is a strain of something that is producing a lot of acidity with whatever leftovers sacc has left behind. However, those long chain sugars and starches usually take more than eight days to break down.

He's also not stating that there is declining gravity during these sour hydrometer tastings. That also suggests there is no further activity because alcohol and acids are less dense than starches and sugars. So there's also that.

You can't just take that he says it tastes like lemonade as direct evidence of lactic acid. Unless OP has experience tasting straight lactic acid or a lot of sour beers he could just as easily taste low levels of acetic acid, any number of other acids, some ester or higher alcohol he is extremely sensitive to, or any number of chemicals that are perceived as sour or bitter.

Thank You both for the great information, sorry I didn't state that the hydrometer readings are in-fact dropping, here are the dates and hydrometer readings,
brewing day 9/22/12 1.070 @ 77 deg, 9/26/12 1.024 @ 82 deg, 9/30/12 1.021 @ 81 deg, On 9/22 the wort taste very sweet right before pitching yeast,
On 9/26 the hydrometer sample taste like flat beer, just a slight bit green, not bitter or sour, On 9/30 the hydro sample is very sour, Im 52 years old and have been
cooking home made meals since was 19 using spices, fruit and liquid for flavoring, I know this dose not make me an expert by any means, but I can without a
doubt that it taste just like you dumped sour lemons into the brew and a bunch of em, I have no other way of describing it, no other taste what so ever.

Man I wish I new of anyone else around me that brewed, where I live is like I fell off the earth, I have even been running a add on CL with my phone # for months looking
for other brewers, with no reply's.

On this last batch I even bought 8=1 gal bottles of water, 4 bottles in the boil, 3 in the fridge (top off water, had extra) 1 gal in cleaned and sanitized new containers to freeze water in (use for cooling wort) I even had a spray bottle of star-san and used it on everything any time, anything was in use, I even star-san'ed the stove and kitchen counter several times
before, during and after brewing, the thing thats killing me is the first 3 batches were not infected, from the forth batch on they all taste super sour, different kinds of brews, some with hops, some with herbs, some wheat brews, even 1 batch of NTOLERANCES amber/wheat from this forum, it was the second time brewing it, Im pulling my hair out.
Insert 4 letter word here _______ lol

This last batch I pitched Belgian Saison Activator Wyeast ACT3724- 4.25 oz. @ 77 deg and it took off in about 10 hrs, fermented hard for 2 days then started slowing down, this yeast has a temp range from 70 to 95 deg, Im using this for 2 reasons, one I live where its 85 to 87 deg in my house with the AC running and two if the brew soured then I can still use it as a shandy, mix 50/50 tonic water and sour saison brew together, its quite good but Im not brewing to mix tonic water with my brews to make them drinkable.

If there is any information that I can give you guys to help me figure out whats going on, Please just ask and I will try and post it, I have been taking notes when I brew.

Im going to order up some supplies to do a 1 gal test batch, using a different type of grain and a different type of yeast.

I think I figured out where it all started from, I screwed up and didn't properly clean a bottling bucket valve after my 3rd brew, when I took it apart (after 4th brew) it had some gunk in it, I washed it out and sanitized it, but obviously that didn't get the job done.

So what information do you guys need to figure out what is going on?

And Thanks for all the input
Cheers

Hello? where did you guys go?

WileECoyote said:

I think I figured out where it all started from, I screwed up and didn't properly clean a bottling bucket valve after my 3rd brew, when I took it apart (after 4th brew) it had some gunk in it, I washed it out and sanitized it, but obviously that didn't get the job done.

So what information do you guys need to figure out what is going on?

And Thanks for all the input
Cheers

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But if the beer is sour in the primary, how can the bottling bucket be the source of infection?

sculpin said:

But if the beer is sour in the primary, how can the bottling bucket be the source of infection?

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Hello, I have 3 buckets, all have spigots now, my bottling bucket spigot is where the I believe the infection started, next it got used as a primary fermenting vessel, since I rotate my buckets to whatever I need them to be used for, instead of having them dedicated, the infection is in them all.

When I get this bug under control, I will be dedicating equipment to specific tasks.

Cheers

WileECoyote said:

Hello, I have 3 buckets, all have spigots now, my bottling bucket spigot is where the I believe the infection started, next it got used as a primary fermenting vessel, since I rotate my buckets to whatever I need them to be used for, instead of having them dedicated, the infection is in them all.

When I get this bug under control, I will be dedicating equipment to specific tasks.

Cheers

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I understand now.

Did you use grains in all the brews that went sour? If yes, maybe you want to try a batch only with extract and see if it still comes out sour.
I'm getting sour (and bitter) brews too and I tend to blame it on using grains. So I'm going to make a can kit to see if it comes out OK.

Another test you can do is a wort stability test
I want to do this as well if the can kit batch comes out OK.

In any case please let us(or at least me) know about your progress.

I would think that all of your plastics are contaminated. You would have to have seperate equipment for sour beer. (fermenting bucket, bottling equipment, siphon and hoses, etc.......) Once it gets into your plastics, it will not be removed.

sculpin said:

I understand now.

Did you use grains in all the brews that went sour? If yes, maybe you want to try a batch only with extract and see if it still comes out sour.
I'm getting sour (and bitter) brews too and I tend to blame it on using grains. So I'm going to make a can kit to see if it comes out OK.

Another test you can do is a wort stability test
I want to do this as well if the can kit batch comes out OK.

In any case please let us(or at least me) know about your progress.

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Hello, Great link Thanks, I don't think its the grain as I have been doing dry malt extract batches with steeping grains, the last batch was my first partial mash, Im going to do another test batch this weekend without using any of my plastics, I should know in about 8 days after brewing.

Ill let you know.

Cheers

Good luck! Maybe if this next one doesn't turn out, you can purposely brew some nice sours!

Javier25 said:

I would think that all of your plastics are contaminated. You would have to have seperate equipment for sour beer. (fermenting bucket, bottling equipment, siphon and hoses, etc.......) Once it gets into your plastics, it will not be removed.

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Hello, This is exactly what Im afraid of, its going to cost me about $150 to replace all plastics, and I really don't want to reproduce this sour ever again, it could probably win a contest for the strongest sour brew ever, its that sour.

Is their anyway to kill it out of my plastics??? I see the it will not be removed statement, but was just hoping their might be a way.

Cheers

Not that I know of. Maybe someone else on this thread could give you a more promising answer. It's another reason why glass is much better, cause it won't cut into the glass. I don't think anything can reach into those microscopic grooves to get in and kill all of the bugs. I wouldn't lose hope yet til you get more answers.

If you aren't finding that your equipment is to blame, the one glaring place I see the infection coming from is you top off water. You said you are getting filtered water from an RO device. As stated earlier by someone else, the faucet on that RO unit could be harboring microorganisms. Without boiling this water, it is possible you are dumping the infection into your wort.

While it is not always necessary, I boil my top up/off water and dump it into my capped & sanitized bottling bucket while I'm sitting over the stove with the wort. My wort is then dumped into the bucket with the water so my wort chiller can bring the temp down and an air stone to oxygenate. Then it is dumped into a glass carboy.

Javier25 said:

It's another reason why glass is much better, cause it won't cut into the glass. I don't think anything can reach into those microscopic grooves to get in and kill all of the bugs. I wouldn't lose hope yet til you get more answers.

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Glass can be scratched too, but this is not the point.

What I can't understand is: how the cleaner and/or sanitizer that is in the bucket for days cannot get into the microscopic grooves and the beer can. I migth be wrong, I was before and probably wil be again, but for me it's hard to believe that the bugs close the groove's door to sanitizer and open it to the beer.

Again, I might be wrong, but in my case I tend to think that the wort gets somehow contaminated before or while it goes into the primary or the too much trub in my wort/primary is the cause of contamination/spoilage.

Or can it be the fruit flies? I never saw them touching my wort or equipment but I wonder if having them flying in the kitchen does not contaminate the air.

The ones that I use wheat in them they sour the most and I would say the fastest.

LitterBox said:

If you aren't finding that your equipment is to blame, the one glaring place I see the infection coming from is you top off water. You said you are getting filtered water from an RO device. As stated earlier by someone else, the faucet on that RO unit could be harboring microorganisms. Without boiling this water, it is possible you are dumping the infection into your wort.

While it is not always necessary, I boil my top up/off water and dump it into my capped & sanitized bottling bucket while I'm sitting over the stove with the wort. My wort is then dumped into the bucket with the water so my wort chiller can bring the temp down and an air stone to oxygenate. Then it is dumped into a glass carboy.

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Hello, I took the advise of the person that said to use a different water source, on my last batch, I purchased 8 one gal jugs of bottled water, I only used water from those 8 containers.

This batch was sour at 8 days in the primary, going to do another test batch this weekend to narrow it down even further.

Cheers

Javier25 said:

Not that I know of. Maybe someone else on this thread could give you a more promising answer. It's another reason why glass is much better, cause it won't cut into the glass. I don't think anything can reach into those microscopic grooves to get in and kill all of the bugs. I wouldn't lose hope yet til you get more answers.

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Thanks Javier, its looking like all new plastics is my only option.

Cheers

sculpin said:

Glass can be scratched too, but this is not the point.

What I can't understand is: how the cleaner and/or sanitizer that is in the bucket for days cannot get into the microscopic grooves and the beer can. I migth be wrong, I was before and probably wil be again, but for me it's hard to believe that the bugs close the groove's door to sanitizer and open it to the beer.

Again, I might be wrong, but in my case I tend to think that the wort gets somehow contaminated before or while it goes into the primary or the too much trub in my wort/primary is the cause of contamination/spoilage.

Or can it be the fruit flies? I never saw them touching my wort or equipment but I wonder if having them flying in the kitchen does not contaminate the air.

The ones that I use wheat in them they sour the most and I would say the fastest.

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Hello sculpin, I just read where some microorganisms, deep in scratches, when assaulted by a sanitizer/sterilizer, the outer layer of them will die off and cover the inner layer, acting like a shield insulating the inner layer from the sanitizer.

This is bad news for us I guess, The one thing I don't get is my buckets are not scratched, but then again Im not using a microscope to look at the plastic ether.

Anyway, another test this weekend, without using any of my plastics to see if I can even brew a non infected batch, I'm even going as far as doing a SMASH, 1 grain and one hop, no wheat in it, and only a one gal batch fermented in a glass growler.

Ill let you know next weekend if it worked, after that it will be another extreme bleach bomb to one fermenting bucket and a 1 gal test batch in it, that should give me the answer, whether I can reuse any of my plastics or not.

Cheers

Don't forget, your hydrometer. I don't know what you use, but I have a plastic cylinder that I use to measure out the gravity. That's another thing you might need to replace.

Javier25 said:

Don't forget, your hydrometer. I don't know what you use, but I have a plastic cylinder that I use to measure out the gravity. That's another thing you might need to replace.

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Good call, I wasn't planning on taking any hydro readings for just that reason, all I really care about is if its sour in 8 days or not.

Cheers

Update?

Question from a neophyte: I think that I read that you put ice and cold water from an ice machine into your wort to cool it down? Do you still do this? Ice machines are notorious for their unsanitary conditions.

I may be wrong, but I assumed he placed the ice in water, and set the kettle in it. Not the other way around.

Javier25 said:

Update?

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Hello, I have good news the SMASH beer is not sour after 8 days and is amazingly good tasting, I used the same water as most of my other batches, on this batch I only used my grain mill, boil pot, and ss spoon, and no other items that were used in previous batches.

Im still not sure if Im going to toss everything, or if Im going to try to salvage it, but it all will be bagged up and leaving the house, going to store it in the back garage for now.

I would really like to do a extreme bleach bomb experiment on the plastics and small test batches just to see if the infection can be killed off, but with work and wanting to get brewing again who knows if that will ever happen

Just ordered a new complete starter kit from http://www.windriverbrew.com/apprentice.html
it comes with an ingredient kit too and they will even let you switch it for any one of their other kits.

Time to get brewing again

Cheers

babayaga said:

Question from a neophyte: I think that I read that you put ice and cold water from an ice machine into your wort to cool it down? Do you still do this? Ice machines are notorious for their unsanitary conditions.

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Yes I use water from a machine for my boil water, top off water and to make my own Ice blocks that I put directly into the wort to aid with getting it to pitching temps.

I have done test batches using 3 different water sources, 2 from different machines and 1 batch using only bottled water, they were all infected.

I just did a test batch last weekend, I only used my grain mill, boil pot, and ss spoon, and I used the same water from the machine I like to use, and no infection after 8 days

Cheers

Good news indeed! I'm glad you figured it out! If you're looking to get rid of the infected equipment, let me know, I am actually wanting to get ahold of some extra equipment to start brewing some sours!

Thanks for the update. Great news but at the same time sad news knowing that contaminated plastic equipment can't be saved but you can still use it for something else.

WileECoyote said:

Hello, I have good news the SMASH beer is not sour after 8 days and is amazingly good tasting, I used the same water as most of my other batches, on this batch I only used my grain mill, boil pot, and ss spoon, and no other items that were used in previous batches.

I'm still not sure if I'm going to toss everything, or if Im going to try to salvage it, but it all will be bagged up and leaving the house, going to store it in the back garage for now.

I would really like to do a extreme bleach bomb experiment on the plastics and small test batches just to see if the infection can be killed off, but with work and wanting to get brewing again who knows if that will ever happen

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Finally reading through this entire thread again. I'm glad you finally replaced your plastic buckets. But if I were you, I would not waste another batch on your plastic equipment that is clearly only producing sour beers.

In my house, I intentionally brew/ferment sour beers. Some in glass, others in Better Bottles (plastic). While you can get away with using the same plastic parts for both clean and sour beers for a while, you will be rolling the dice on which batch is the first to get infected. When I started with sours, I used the same bottling bucket for ~4 batches of clean and sour beers. That fifth batch was the one to bite the dust. I ended up with a sour Rye IPA (for the record sour + bitter = barf). Now that I'm a tad more experienced, I keep separate sour gear and separate clean gear. Once a fermenter shows ANY SIGN of producing Brett/Lacto/Pedio sourness/tartness/funk it is retired (I had a Tripel that caught a nasty Lacto cold out of nowhere - that fermenter is now used for intentional sours).

For me, risking the time, effort and money on a batch that could go sour again doesn't make much sense to me. I'd dump the old plastics.

Happy brewing!

WileECoyote said:

Yes I use water from a machine for my boil water, top off water and to make my own Ice blocks that I put directly into the wort to aid with getting it to pitching temps.

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A better way of doing this is to freeze 20oz soda bottles, sanitize and throw them in once the wort gets down past 110* or so.

Rinse and reuse. Don't contaminate.

AmandaK said:

Finally reading through this entire thread again. I'm glad you finally replaced your plastic buckets.

For me, risking the time, effort and money on a batch that could go sour again doesn't make much sense to me. I'd dump the old plastics.

Happy brewing!

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What about glass? How much safer is it to use them after an infection?

AmandaK said:

Finally reading through this entire thread again. I'm glad you finally replaced your plastic buckets. But if I were you, I would not waste another batch on your plastic equipment that is clearly only producing sour beers.

In my house, I intentionally brew/ferment sour beers. Some in glass, others in Better Bottles (plastic). While you can get away with using the same plastic parts for both clean and sour beers for a while, you will be rolling the dice on which batch is the first to get infected. When I started with sours, I used the same bottling bucket for ~4 batches of clean and sour beers. That fifth batch was the one to bite the dust. I ended up with a sour Rye IPA (for the record sour + bitter = barf). Now that I'm a tad more experienced, I keep separate sour gear and separate clean gear. Once a fermenter shows ANY SIGN of producing Brett/Lacto/Pedio sourness/tartness/funk it is retired (I had a Tripel that caught a nasty Lacto cold out of nowhere - that fermenter is now used for intentional sours).

For me, risking the time, effort and money on a batch that could go sour again doesn't make much sense to me. I'd dump the old plastics.

Happy brewing!

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Thanks for the info about rolling the dice with the equipment, Ill keep that equipment bagged up and out in the garage, that way if I ever do want to do a sour (intentionally) I will already have everything I need.

Also if your equipment has a very very sour infection and you use it for making a sour brew, will the infection in the equipment take over and make it a very very sour, instead of just a sour?

Thanks again for the reply, sorry it took me so long to respond, been working like crazy.

Cheers

sculpin said:

What about glass? How much safer is it to use them after an infection?

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Generally, glass is not scratched (where undesirables can live). Can it be? Yes, but it is not likely unless you are trying. Bleach bomb/rinse/rinse/rinse/sanitize and reuse your glass equipment.

WileECoyote said:

Also if your equipment has a very very sour infection and you use it for making a sour brew, will the infection in the equipment take over and make it a very very sour, instead of just a sour?

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That really all depends. There are many types of wild yeasts and bacterias. There are also many types of gear - plastic tubing, plastic fermenters, glass carboys, oak barrels, etc.

Some of the rules I follow:
-If anything smells like vinegar, it's out. Trash it.
-If I use a plastic bucket for sour fermentations, it's only for sour fermentations. This could mean lambics, Flanders or Brett beers.
-If a plastic fermenter develops a funny looking film on top (usually lactobacillus in my house), it's a sour beer fermenter after that.
-I replace my plastic tubing/parts about once every 6 months, more often if my clean beers start to over carbonate. (I try and be a hawk about this because I do keep both sour and clean beer equipment in the same house.) T

All this results in replacing my clean beer equipment more often than usual, but I do get a lot of sour beer fermenters out of it (I think I'm up to 7 out of my 15), which is never a bad thing if you like those kinds of beers.

Any other questions, feel free to PM me.

AmandaK said:

That really all depends. There are many types of wild yeasts and bacterias. There are also many types of gear - plastic tubing, plastic fermenters, glass carboys, oak barrels, etc.

Some of the rules I follow:
-If anything smells like vinegar, it's out. Trash it.
-If I use a plastic bucket for sour fermentations, it's only for sour fermentations. This could mean lambics, Flanders or Brett beers.
-If a plastic fermenter develops a funny looking film on top (usually lactobacillus in my house), it's a sour beer fermenter after that.
-I replace my plastic tubing/parts about once every 6 months, more often if my clean beers start to over carbonate. (I try and be a hawk about this because I do keep both sour and clean beer equipment in the same house.) T

All this results in replacing my clean beer equipment more often than usual, but I do get a lot of sour beer fermenters out of it (I think I'm up to 7 out of my 15), which is never a bad thing if you like those kinds of beers.

Any other questions, feel free to PM me.

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Thanks AmandaK, Im pretty sure that its a lacto infection, no mold or spider webs on top, also no vinegar smell, I only have plastic's no glass or oak yet.

Im not sure if I even want to brew sour's on purpose, I have yet to try one, other than mine, Im calling it Super Sour Saison, its not bad as a shandy about 50/50 mix but I don't really think anyone would want to drink one of these straight, way too sour.

Thanks for the help

Cheers

I have Great news, I have another batch (5 gal this time) that has made it past a week old and its not infected ether, time for me to get the pipeline going again.

Cheers

Hooray!!

That IS great news! Now you can send us some of that homebrew! Haha

Update, I am around 25 batches down the road from this infection now and am still using some of the items that we soaked in Hydrogen Peroxide @ a 50/50 mix with water for 3 days, still no problems, knock on wood.

My hope here is that this information will help give brewers suffering with a persistent infection another means to battle it.

Cheers