how did historic winemakers get away without degassing?

I'm firmly in the keep-it-simple camp. We know that the great winemakers of Europe have make fantastic still wines for centuries without the use of wine whips, brake bleeding kits, foodsaver vacuums, etc. Yet I see all the discussion here regarding the best method of degassing. Is this just due to the fact that many people are eager to finish/drink their wine kits, and can't wait for the CO2 to evolve out naturally?

Its a lot more difficult for gasses to dissipate naturally is plastic/SS/glass vessels than it is in wood.

Well, I"m not "historic" but I am old.

The only time you have to degas normally is if you rush to bottle. With kits, you have to degas (they are rushed to the bottle) but I've had exactly ONE wine in 20+ years that needed some degassing.

So, not really an issue at all. If you leave the wine for the proper amount of time in the carboy (clear, no longer throwing lees after 60 days, etc), then the wine should degas on its own with time.

So, let's see. I've made hundreds and hundreds (maybe a thousand?) gallons of wines and had one 5-gallon non-kit batch that needed to be degassed. Not really an issue.

They didn't make kit wines.

amandabab said:

Its a lot more difficult for gasses to dissipate naturally is plastic/SS/glass vessels than it is in wood.

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agreed. but if it's easy for CO2 to offgas out of an oak barrel, it's easy for air/O2 to leak into a barrel. So why the modern focus on preventing oxidation with and airlock?

Yooper said:

Well, I"m not "historic" but I am old.

The only time you have to degas normally is if you rush to bottle. With kits, you have to degas (they are rushed to the bottle) but I've had exactly ONE wine in 20+ years that needed some degassing.

So, not really an issue at all. If you leave the wine for the proper amount of time in the carboy (clear, no longer throwing lees after 60 days, etc), then the wine should degas on its own with time.

So, let's see. I've made hundreds and hundreds (maybe a thousand?) gallons of wines and had one 5-gallon non-kit batch that needed to be degassed. Not really an issue.

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so it really is just a matter of impatience?

DoctorCAD said:

They didn't make kit wines.

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is there anything unique to kit wines that demands active degassing? Or is it just the fact that the instructions lead you to beleive you can drink great wine 30 days after pitching yeast? In other words, if you were just as impatient with a non-kit wine would you still need to actively degas it?

twd000 said:

agreed. but if it's easy for CO2 to offgas out of an oak barrel, it's easy for air/O2 to leak into a barrel. So why the modern focus on preventing oxidation with and airlock?

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Because oxidized wine doesn't taste good. It gets "sherry like" flavors (madierized) and darkens in color.

twd000 said:

is there anything unique to kit wines that demands active degassing? Or is it just the fact that the instructions lead you to beleive you can drink great wine 30 days after pitching yeast? In other words, if you were just as impatient with a non-kit wine would you still need to actively degas it?

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Yes, the reason for degassing is impatience as far as I know. Even a kit wine, if left to sit in a carboy with an airlock to degas, will eventually degas on its own. There may be a tiny bit of gas remaining, if there isn't enough gas pressure to cause the airlock to bubble, but not much.

I did have one wine that held onto gas, and I did degas one batch but it was only one batch in the last 20 years.

Yooper said:

Because oxidized wine doesn't taste good. It gets "sherry like" flavors (madierized) and darkens in color.

Yes, the reason for degassing is impatience as far as I know. Even a kit wine, if left to sit in a carboy with an airlock to degas, will eventually degas on its own. There may be a tiny bit of gas remaining, if there isn't enough gas pressure to cause the airlock to bubble, but not much.

I did have one wine that held onto gas, and I did degas one batch but it was only one batch in the last 20 years.

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I'm sure our ancestors did the same things we do. Sample the fermenting must, sampling/ drinking young wine. As sampling thinking "man I wish there was a way to degas this wine"!

...or they just stirred it...

I am one of those impatient people who doesn't care if my wine has a little 'gas'. When 5 gallons are done another one is readied. I drink for two reasons, it tastes good (I am NOT a fine wine connisuer, and you can tell, because I can't even spell it) and a glass will get me hammered. I make wine the same way my mother did, 5 gallon bucket, tubing and a balloon, yeast, sugar, and as much organic fruit as I can grow or find, cheap. I love this site because there is so much information and the comraderie is exceptional!!! No degassing here, husband LIKES the bubbles...better buzz, he says!!!

man ive never drank any kind of wine that will get me hammered off one glass, one night i drank 3 bottles of my wine and I was sitting at the kitchen table brain dead as hell starring outside the window. I think at that point i had turned into the mentally insane stage, usually one bottle will get me a good buzz going...cheers

Honda88 said:

man ive never drank any kind of wine that will get me hammered off one glass, one night i drank 3 bottles of my wine and I was sitting at the kitchen table brain dead as hell starring outside the window. I think at that point i had turned into the mentally insane stage, usually one bottle will get me a good buzz going...cheers

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Haven't drank in 10 years, until I started making my own wine...still a "Newbie" at both!!!:cross: Oh, and did I mention, one glass is a pint mason jar? Was never one to stand on formalities! I think the only time I have ever used a wine glass, was to check for clarity.

twd000 said:

agreed. but if it's easy for CO2 to offgas out of an oak barrel, it's easy for air/O2 to leak into a barrel. So why the modern focus on preventing oxidation with and airlock?

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CO2 dozen't degas through the wood, the rough surface of the barrel acts to aid nucleation of bubbles. They degas instantly during filling, not slowly. As to O2 coming in, it does. Oxidised wine is really bad but slow oxidation, known as micro oxidation, is highly beneficial and increases colour stability, lowers astringency from harsh tannin and can knock down unpleasant "green" characters. I should say that if this is forced it tends to lead to premature ageing.

There is a big difference between white and red wines. Barrel ageing is mainly for reds, the small amount of oxidation speeds up the ageing process so they are ready to drink sooner. A good red wine will have bitter tannins when young, in glass or SS it takes years for a full bodied red wine to be drinkable. With barrels they are quite drinkable in 2 years, though they will improve for years after that. The co2 reacts quite badly with the bitter tannins when you drink it, a young full bodied red bottled with a tiny bit of co2 can taste quite horrible, even though it might be really good in a few years time, when the tannins smoothen and the co2 gradually gets less. The red wine I make often isn't good until 4 years, but then I have a really nice drop with lots of flavour.
White wines don't have the same tannins, so the whole degas/age question isn't so important.