KiltLifter
Well-Known Member
Ah HA! DevilsCreek, You said that AC units bring exterior air IN, they do not, they just recirculate the air already in the room! BRING ON THE TUTU!
Fermentation closet.
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BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
We need pictures of the TUTU and dance to be posted, waiting LOL!
DevilsCreekBrewing
Well-Known Member
The total of my posts in this thread in italics, with referenes to AC also bolded;
1 - OK. My preface to the wall of text I am going to type. I am a TSSA licensed Gas 3 Tech, and am in school right now for plumbing. From what I have seen, Canadian Codes are as stringent, or more so, than State Codes, except California. What I lay out may not be the Code for you area, but it will be safe.
1st. Combustion products, or 'fumes' (as has been said in this thread) are vented through the vent you see at the top of the unit. They do not get vented to the atmosphere around the unit. Water Heaters with a vent stack, and an ABS pipe are high efficiency condensing units. Unless this Water Heater is also a combo heating unit, it is not spillage-susceptible, and there is no fear of CO2 in the area, assuming the unit is in good repair, without cracks or other damage to the combustion chamber or heat exchange.
2nd. Water Heaters are often installed in spaces smaller than what you have shown. Many condos have a small closet that has the Water Heater, Water Softener etc. The requirements for installation list a minimum clearance from combustibles, discharge piping and vent sizing. As long as these are met, the area of the space is immaterial. For instance this Water Heater at Home Depot is a 36,000 BTU unit. Based on CAN/CSA B149.1-05 (Natural Gas and Propane Installation Code) this unit only requires 4 sq in of free area duct, or 2 in dia round duct.
So, that out of the way, I wouldn't relocate the Water Heater, I wouldn't buy a new one, and I wouldn't worry about the AC unit not working well because of the Water Heater. Insulate the tank of the unit if you haven't already. Make sure you have 4 sq in of venting, and enjoy your cold room.
2 - Without seeing the rest of the room, I really have no way to say. I don't see any venting in that picture. Ensure you have proper venting, any louvered vents reduce the effective size, 25-30% reduction for metal, and 75-80% reduction for wood. I wouldn't use any open area in the air conditioner as part of the calculation. I may not have been clear enough in my first post, I am referring here to a hole in the wall that allows air into the room containing the HW Heater. It needs to allow incoming air for combustion.
@ Brewbeemer, I think you are right about the velocity change when the AC unit will run. I also think that with the close to air tight houses now, there is a similar effect when a house AC unit kicks in. Without a velometer reading, I truly don't know what the difference would be. There will be heat energy loss when cooling the room, that is a given, but from the original post, there isn't an intent to make a fridge in this room, just to level the temp out.
3 - Nope. Again, the OP says control within a few degrees, not turning it into a fridge.
4 - None of the concerns are based in fact, and I defy any of the posters who suggested it was to list a Code or Standard that shows it is.
I'll brew the rest of the year in a pink tutu, with video on Youtube if you can prove me wrong.
All of my suggestions regarding natural gas or propane are coming from Canadian Code. I will list the Code each and every time I offer advice on gas. I refuse to post "I think", "it could", "it might" or "possibly" with regards to gas.
5 - In the example I gave with the Home Depot 36k BTU water heater, it needs 4 sq inches of venting for combustion air. Assuming a 32" door to the room, that is only a 1/16" gap underneath to allow for this air flow. Let me know he BTU rating of your WH, and I'll let you know the sq inches required.
6 - You say roll out, but are you referring to backdrafting? I have only seen roll out used with the flame, when it is not being properly induced into the combustion chamber. May be a regional thing. If so, backdrafting is most likely when there is little air flow across the chimney preventing the venturi effect, coupled with things such as a bathroom fan, furnace etc that are exhausting interior air out. As the AC unit is inside, exhausting inside, the reverse is true here.
Sure will. Can't disagree with the AC running more often than if it was in a still air flow room. OP has said, a few times though, that this isn't a fridge, it is just to maintain a temp range.
The AC is venting some distance away from the door, the air won't be above ambient by the time is is returned to the room. The AC is also venting above the floor line outside, and the incoming air vent to the room is below the door right now, the hot air will rise to his ceiling, not come under the door.
Good idea.
I just used my velometer to do some measurements around my HW tank. I had a 1 degree C change to ambient over 10 mins of running from stopped. Could have been the HW tank, might have been random.
No. The cfm on the AC unit is far too low to be blowing out the pilot given where they are both placed now.
I don't see anywhere that I said an AC unit draws exterior air. I do talk about the venting of the AC though. If I am missing it, please quote me in full. I haven't yet had a coffee, so I might well have missed something I typed.
DevilsCreekBrewing
Well-Known Member
B149.1S1-07 Table 8.2
Up to 75k btu requires 4 sq inch of free area air-supply opening or duct, or 2 inch diameter round duct.
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The point I was making, and tyring not to get to technical for the OP since he doesn't have knowledge in this area, was that sufficient make up air is ESSENTIAL. Recommending a 1/16" gap at the bottom of the door is not something that should be recommended, or would pass a codes inspection. The main goal here is safety.
Not to beat a dead horse, but there are some flaws in your reasoning. The hot air being pulled out of the closet into the garage is not going to radiate through the ceiling as quickly as it is being pumped in, and it will cause the garge to heat up. You are basically adding a heat pump to the garage.
And I didn't see any mention of the CFM of the A/C unit. Maybe I missed it? But most window units blow plenty strong enough to put out a pilot light, especially in a confined space where it is circulating such a small amount of air.
To the OP, you show your laundry room right beside the closet, and the water lines are running into that wall. It really would not be that big of a job to have a plumber come move the water heater into that room just on the other side of the wall. I'd estimate a few hundred dollars.
If you go that route, you eliminate all of the safety concerns and other issues. Then you could seal the room off and insulate as much as you'd like. Seems like a win win and you've got peace of mind for a few hundred bucks.
Not to beat a dead horse, but there are some flaws in your reasoning. The hot air being pulled out of the closet into the garage is not going to radiate through the ceiling as quickly as it is being pumped in, and it will cause the garge to heat up. You are basically adding a heat pump to the garage.
And I didn't see any mention of the CFM of the A/C unit. Maybe I missed it? But most window units blow plenty strong enough to put out a pilot light, especially in a confined space where it is circulating such a small amount of air.
To the OP, you show your laundry room right beside the closet, and the water lines are running into that wall. It really would not be that big of a job to have a plumber come move the water heater into that room just on the other side of the wall. I'd estimate a few hundred dollars.
If you go that route, you eliminate all of the safety concerns and other issues. Then you could seal the room off and insulate as much as you'd like. Seems like a win win and you've got peace of mind for a few hundred bucks.
KiltLifter
Well-Known Member
I was just pulling your chain man, but here's the quote. I was searching hard for a typo or something to call you on, but honestly, I don't really want to see you in a Tutu.
Just to contribute something actually useful to this thread:
I have a concern about getting combustion air from the garage. In many places, water heaters have to be up off the ground if they are in a garage (like 2 feet or so?) so that the pilot or burner will be less likely to ignite gasoline fumes. Personally I wouldn't want to wait til i had 2 feet of fumes before I ignited it, but perhaps it's an air/fuel thing.
There, something helpful. Oops, helpfulness waning, must stop typing.....
Tutu Brewing Company, where we're man enough to wear pink and hoppy to do so.
DevilsCreekBrewing
Well-Known Member
I was just pulling your chain man, but here's the quote. I was searching hard for a typo or something to call you on, but honestly, I don't really want to see you in a Tutu.
Just to contribute something actually useful to this thread:
I have a concern about getting combustion air from the garage. In many places, water heaters have to be up off the ground if they are in a garage (like 2 feet or so?) so that the pilot or burner will be less likely to ignite gasoline fumes. Personally I wouldn't want to wait til i had 2 feet of fumes before I ignited it, but perhaps it's an air/fuel thing.
There, something helpful. Oops, helpfulness waning, must stop typing.....
Tutu Brewing Company, where we're man enough to wear pink and hoppy to do so.
Sorry, still not following. The AC unit isn't exhausting to the outdoors, it will exhaust to the garage. I didn't think I had said that an AC pulls air from the exterior. They sure vent hot air that way though.
DevilsCreekBrewing
Well-Known Member
Presumably this unit has already passed an inspection. OP has said that there is no additional venting in the room. You are right though, I should have been clearer here. In previous posts, I have recommended the 4 sq inch venting. I wouldn't set up system that drew only from a doorway. Again though, I was presuming this had passed a local inspection as is.
Sorry, I don't see the flaws. Again, OP has stated that the purpose of the room is to regulate temp within a few degrees. Unlikely the AC unit will run long, or hard. If the intent was to turn this room into a fridge, I would have joined the initial chorus of move the HW tank.
There was no mention of the cfm of the unit. I calculated it based on the tonnage of cooling capacity, and an estimate of the size of the room.
OP
OP
cameronsto
Active Member
So in a nutshell, DevilsCreekBrewing, you think this is perfectly safe and doable assuming I keep "4 sq in of free area duct, or 2 in dia round duct" of venting into the room available. Is that correct?
Thanks, everyone, for all the comments and discussion.
Cameron
Thanks, everyone, for all the comments and discussion.
Cameron
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Any update on this?
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
At 4" sq vs 2" diameter ducting that's a 5 times difference in cross sectional area, not even close.
OP
OP
cameronsto
Active Member
It worked well for the month or so I had it running. The A/C had to run more than I would have liked so I'm going to look into better insulating the room. I need to figure out where the cold is escaping or heat entering. Of course at this point I no longer need the A/C but need to heat the room so that's another problem.
-Cameron
