Trying a twist on a Helles, need a little help

Okay guys, I've been wanting to design a Helles, but with some sort of unique twist. I think I have a good idea on one, but I still need a little help, since I know these kinds of lagers are all about subtlety, and I don't want to foul it up.

Here's what I have so far:

Good Land Lager

3lbs Pilsen DME (90 min)
3.15lbs Munich LME (90 min)
.5lbs Belgian Caramel Pils (steep)
.25lbs Melanoidin (steep)
.25oz Citra Hops whole flower (60 min)
.25oz Citra Hops whole flower (30 min)
1oz Hallertau whole flower (10 min)
1pkg White WLP833 Bock yeast

That's giving me these calculated vitals:
OG: 1.049
FG: 1.013
IBU: 18
ABV: 4.70%
SRM: 6

So here's where I'm having a few issues.

1. I'd like to get the ABV a little closer to 5-5.1%, but I'm already on the top of the style range for OG (1.051), and already a hair over the style range for FG (1.012). My IBUs are perfect, and I'm hoping the Citra hops provide the mango/papaya/pineapple twist they're supposed to, and the SRM is just a hair dark (by a point), but I'm okay with that.

2. I was aiming to make this a little more malt-forward than your typical pilsner, but still try and keep it crisp and drinkable. Do you think I'd get there?

3. I currently have only 2 fermentation vessels, and usually something in both. That is actually one less than the number of refrigerators I have on hand (shrug). How necessary is it to rack into a secondary for the lagering, or can I get away with leaving it all in one place? Or am I going to have to drop some coin I don't really have and get another bucket or better bottle or something?

4. Any other thoughts?

I'm not an expert with extracts, but that seems like a lot of munich for a helles; i'd dial the munich down maybe to 5-15% if you're set on using it. Munich extracts are typically a 50-50 blend of pale malt and base malt. I didn't do the math, but you're probably around 20-25% munich now.

"guide·line/ˈgīdˌlīn/
Noun:
A general rule, principle, or piece of advice."

I'd go for #3

I don't think you need to do a 90 min boil with DME/LME. Is there a reason behind it?

MetzgersBrauhaus said:

2. I was aiming to make this a little more malt-forward than your typical pilsner, but still try and keep it crisp and drinkable. Do you think I'd get there?

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I suggested reducing the Munich a little which I think will make the beer more Helles like because I thought that's what you were going for, but that's certainly not required. I think if the beer attenuates properly it will be "crisp and drinkable". In order to attenuate, you'll need to pitch the proper amount of yeast. I don't know how much experience you have with lager beers, but they need a lot of yeast, about twice as much as ales. Definitely consult mrmalty.com or yeastcalc.com to determine the proper starter size.

MetzgersBrauhaus said:

3. I currently have only 2 fermentation vessels, and usually something in both. That is actually one less than the number of refrigerators I have on hand (shrug). How necessary is it to rack into a secondary for the lagering, or can I get away with leaving it all in one place? Or am I going to have to drop some coin I don't really have and get another bucket or better bottle or something?

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Truthfully, I don't know I've not used the WLP833 strain before. In general, most lagers seem to benefit from at least some amount of lagering which will occupy your ferm fridge unless you intend to lager in a kegerator or some other place. Some people lager in the primary and some lager using a secondary. There are various opinions and posts about which vessel can/should be used for lagering. Given your current equipment constraints, I'd just lager in the primary don't worry about it.

Also, I agree with chitowngator, you don't need to boil pilsner DME for 90 minutes, 60 is fine. It's my understanding the pilsner malt has already been boiled in order to make the extract and thus there is little concern about DMS.

Pie_Man said:

In order to attenuate, you'll need to pitch the proper amount of yeast. I don't know how much experience you have with lager beers, but they need a lot of yeast, about twice as much as ales.

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+1 Pitching the right amount of healthy yeast, aerating well, and controlling temps will go a long way in helping attenuation.

Okay, so taking some of your all's advice, I switched the recipe to this:

Good Land Lager

5lbs Pilsen DME (60 min) 73.5%
1lbs Munich DME (60 min) 14.7%
.5lbs Belgian Caramel Pils (steep) 8.1%
.25lbs Melanoidin (steep) 3.7%
.25oz Citra Hops whole flower (60 min)
.25oz Citra Hops whole flower (30 min)
1oz Hallertau whole flower (10 min)
1pkg White WLP833 Bock yeast

That's giving me these calculated vitals:
OG: 1.052 (highish)
FG: 1.014 (highish)
IBU: 18 (target)
ABV: 5.0% (target)
SRM: 5 (high end of target)

So that solved the low ABV problem I was having, but increased the OG and FG a little further, when they were already high (per style guidelines). I don't know how much that matters, but I defer to your experience, guys.

Here's what I'm really trying to create: A Helles-style lager that is a little more malt-forward than usual (hence the Munich malt), has some hop-provided fruit notes (which is why I used Citra for bittering hops), but still has an ABV close to the traditional Münchener Helles (i.e. Hofbräu, Spaten, etc).

Do you guys think this will get me there?

using citra at those times won't give you the tropical fruit notes, you need to use it later in the boil. i'd just dry hop with them.

also, pils DME already has carapils in it, so i wouldn't bother adding more. i like the melanoidin add tho

Helles is already about as malt forward as you can get within its gravity specs. The melanoidin will probably help, but to be more malty (esp without the control of going to AG) I think you may have to live with increasing gravity. You could lessen the hops to bring forward the maltiness, but don't take it too far - you need some for balance. Just to be sure, you're not confusing malty and sweet are you?

My two cents, I'd drop the carapils as was already suggested. I think with the extracts, it'll be tough to get down to FG with additional cara malts. 833 is a great choice (my go to lager yeast) for a malty beer.

oh also, don't add all your extract at the start of the boil, it'll end up too dark and make sure to make a starter, lagers need a lot of yeast:http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

The recipe looks pretty good.

Are you making a starter for the yeast? The right amount of yeast and creating a proper fermentation are extremely important to making a great beer. You can have the perfect recipe, but if you don't take care of fermentation, you won't get the results you're looking for.

using citra at those times won't give you the tropical fruit notes, you need to use it later in the boil. i'd just dry hop with them.

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I'd be concerned about getting some of the really spicy/peppery notes that Citra can give if used in dry hopping, and figured boiling them would let those out while bringing in more of the fruit notes.

Any thoughts, or recommendations on a different hop to use?

I think you may have to live with increasing gravity. You could lessen the hops to bring forward the maltiness, but don't take it too far - you need some for balance. Just to be sure, you're not confusing malty and sweet are you?

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I have the specs on what the style SHOULD be, and I was just trying to take the malt characteristics up a touch without crossing over into sweet. I still want it to be crisp, drinkable, etc.

So will a FG of 1.014 accomplish that without making it overly sweet? Considering the style range is 1.008-1.012? If 1.014 is going to make it too sweet, is there another way to keep the OG where it is, and take the FG down a point or two via technique/pitching/something else?

Are you making a starter for the yeast? The right amount of yeast and creating a proper fermentation are extremely important to making a great beer. You can have the perfect recipe, but if you don't take care of fermentation, you won't get the results you're looking for.

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I was going to get the stuff to be able to make a 2L (max) starter, since I don't have that already. Already made that mistake once. Made a Christmas Saison malt bomb that I just tossed a developed smack pack into.

Bananas. Bananas everywhere.

MetzgersBrauhaus said:

I'd be concerned about getting some of the really spicy/peppery notes that Citra can give if used in dry hopping, and figured boiling them would let those out while bringing in more of the fruit notes.

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i've never heard of citra referred to as spicy. i think you got things backwards with citra. really fruity late, cat piss early

regardless of the hop, 60 & 30mins will give you essentially no flavor/aroma. citra will give you what you're lookign for if you add it late. galaxy would also work.

Good news about the starter, that will serve you well.

Since you're going for subtlety with the hops, I think it's possible for you to get some hop flavor from your additions. Moving the 30 minute addition to about 15 minutes, or splitting part of the 30 minute addition between 30 minutes and 10-15, would bring out more of the hop character.

This is the fun part when you're developing a new recipe. You have to start somewhere, I'd say do what you think is best. You can always tweak the recipe for the next brew. In fact, you can even add a small amount of dry hops after fermentation based on how it tastes. If you take good notes, you'll be able to know what, if anything, to modify for the next time.

MetzgersBrauhaus said:

So will a FG of 1.014 accomplish that without making it overly sweet? Considering the style range is 1.008-1.012? If 1.014 is going to make it too sweet, is there another way to keep the OG where it is, and take the FG down a point or two via technique/pitching/something else?

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Unfortunately predicting sweetness based solely on FG is not possible. It depends on the composition of the wort. If the unfermentables are not sweet then even a high FG may not result in alot of sweetness. Still 1.014 is not unreasonable. I doubt it would be cloyingly undrinkable.

Hex23 said:

Unfortunately predicting sweetness based solely on FG is not possible. It depends on the composition of the wort. If the unfermentables are not sweet then even a high FG may not result in alot of sweetness. Still 1.014 is not unreasonable. I doubt it would be cloyingly undrinkable.

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Very true. Completely different beer style, but I'm drinking a 1.028 FG milk stout that's very drinkable. A little bit of creaminess from the lactose, and a nice roast flavor, not at all cloying or overly sweet. I thought my hydrometer was broken when taking the reading, or that I had really screwed up.

You guys have all been really helpful. I'll let you know how everything goes when I cook it up!