Alabama vote.

The bottle bill goes into effect in August. But just because they will be able to sell their bombers here doesn't mean they will - a lot of the smaller brewers aren't in Alabama not just because of laws but because of brewing capacity and perceived demand.

pentachris said:

The bottle bill goes into effect in August. But just because they will be able to sell their bombers here doesn't mean they will - a lot of the smaller brewers aren't in Alabama not just because of laws but because of brewing capacity and perceived demand.

Click to expand...

Let's be honest - the demand for craft beer is still rather low in Alabama, else we wouldn't have three choices (Bud, Coors, Miller) at most bars. But that is slowly changing.

Damn this thread has been in interesting read to say the least.

Sorry it didn't work out for you guys. I would have to move. Not because homebrewing is that important to me, but because of the principle. Complete and total hypocrites. Not that politicians are any better anywhere else I suppose though.

I don't really buy that hbd. I think the interest is far greater than they believe. Yeah, your simpleton sorts who buy the advertising ploys will tell you if it isn't Budweiser then it isn't good beer. But comedically, these are the same ones who tell you that you don't start out liking beer but the more you drink the more you get used to the taste.....

I second what Accidic said... I live on the outskirts of a smaller city, Florence, just a couple minutes from my house is a package store that is about 40% imports and micros. Demand is pretty high and they have some nice stuff. My buddy owns a bar here, he tells me he is always having people ask "what's the local beer"... On a recent trip to Birmingham, I wandered into a place on Highland (between Taj India and Western Supermarket) that had a TON of craft beers as well as a bunch of taps from which they were dispensing growlers. The place was seriously jumping... also, in Birmingham, there is the old stand-by Diplomat Deli. I haven't been there since about '07, but it always had a good selection to take away or drink on site with a SERIOUS GOOD sandwich. Back in the day they had Red Mountain Red Ale on tap, that was nice...

Things are improving, don't get me wrong. However, I have seen enough bottles sit on the shelves well past their expiration/best buy date to know that demand isn't there yet.

I have no doubt that it will get better, but I don't think anyone will be mistaking the Birmingham beer scene for, say, San Diego or Portland - heck, even Atlanta - anytime soon.

Law changes will help. The fact is a huge percentage of good beers have been illegal here until very recently. Until a year ago, brewpubs were absolutely crippled. Change will come, but it won't be overnight, and it's not here yet.

Just hang in there, guys. Keep pushing for change. All other things equal, I wouldn't move because of the law against home brewing. I'd still do it and keep it on the down low. It's not like you are selling it and/or damaging someone else's lives from it, like dealing drugs. They just need to get a grip on reality and it will happen in time. Just need to keep on educating people and getting the word out and voting.

Sure, some of the larger cities might have a better craft brew culture but as a whole the state of Alabama is far behind in craft brew culture. The alcohol limit was raised in 2009 and the container size was raised just this year as compared to other parts of the country where this hasn't been an issue for decades.
BMC has owned Alabama, thanks in large part to corrupt politicians, since the beginning of time.

This from the Free the Hops websites describes the draconian laws we have to deal with here.
"Brewpubs are burdened with a number of arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions. Some of the more notable restrictions are that they must be located in a historic building and they can only open in a county in which beer was brewed for public consumption prior to prohibition. Brewpubs are also not allowed to bottle their beer for off premises consumption".

I happen to live in a county that will never be allowed to have a brewpub.

I wouldn't say brewpubs were crippled, there were two in B'ham in the late 90s and I brewed for both of them... I sold a LOT of beer, and over the bar sales are where the profit is (At Magic City I had over the bar, NET profit on beer of aprox $469k in 1999, that is close to $650k in todays dollar). For a brewpub that distributes to make money on outside sales they have to either self-distribute (which ain't happening here) or sell a LOT of beer with a production sized-system... The problem with the places in B'ham was the mismanagement of the restaurants and businesses as a whole. If they had competent management, they would probably still be there today. Because they failed (which, again was not about beer sales at all) people were gun shy about attempting to open more. The micros that were there at the time also suffered from mismanagement, Red Mountain or Vulcan could have survived by diversifying their product line... Southside Cellars made the mistake of using a system that was too small and not bottling, they actually made pretty good beer. The owner of that place got suckered into the situation by the owners of The Mill to make it LOOK like they were a brewpub (putting the brewhouse in the window next to The Mill).

I agree that we aren't approaching the places you mention, but those are exceptions. I recently moved back from Salem, Oregon... state capital, 45 minutes south of Portland... town about the size of Huntsville... there were two brewpubs there and the beer at both SUUUUUUCKED... no micro... no more beer choices, perhaps even fewer, than you have in B'ham. Lots of places, even in the "beer" states can say the same thing...

wailingguitar said:

I wouldn't say brewpubs were crippled, there were two in B'ham in the late 90s and I brewed for both of them... I sold a LOT of beer, and over the bar sales are where the profit is (At Magic City I had over the bar, NET profit on beer of aprox $469k in 1999, that is close to $650k in todays dollar). For a brewpub that distributes to make money on outside sales they have to either self-distribute (which ain't happening here) or sell a LOT of beer with a production sized-system... The problem with the places in B'ham was the mismanagement of the restaurants and businesses as a whole. If they had competent management, they would probably still be there today. Because they failed (which, again was not about beer sales at all) people were gun shy about attempting to open more. The micros that were there at the time also suffered from mismanagement, Red Mountain or Vulcan could have survived by diversifying their product line... Southside Cellars made the mistake of using a system that was too small and not bottling, they actually made pretty good beer. The owner of that place got suckered into the situation by the owners of The Mill to make it LOOK like they were a brewpub (putting the brewhouse in the window next to The Mill).

I agree that we aren't approaching the places you mention, but those are exceptions. I recently moved back from Salem, Oregon... state capital, 45 minutes south of Portland... town about the size of Huntsville... there were two brewpubs there and the beer at both SUUUUUUCKED... no micro... no more beer choices, perhaps even fewer, than you have in B'ham. Lots of places, even in the "beer" states can say the same thing...

Click to expand...

I remember 3 operating within walking distance of each other at one time: Magic City, The Mill, and Breckenridge. There was also a Taco Mac there at the same time. I really loved that Breckenridge Oatmeal Stout; The Mill had an oatmeal stout at the time which was almost identical. Around that time, my single friend (fellow math prof. here) kept an apartment within walking distance of 5 Points. I was frequently coming down with Star Trek (original) videos which had been coming out on the SciFi channel (director's cuts!) and sleeping on his couch. Nothing like a couple of pitchers or so of great beer, with good food, followed up by imagining that I'm Captain Kirk.

Good times.

wailingguitar said:

I wouldn't say brewpubs were crippled...

Click to expand...

Not to argue, just wondering... how can you say that they were not crippled?

Brewpubs are banned in all dry counties, obviously.

Until 2011, brewpubs were banned in any location not deemed as a historic location. This DRASTICALLY reduced the number of available pieces of real estate tha a brewpub could ever be opened on, even if you had Scrooge McDuck type money.

Until 2011, brewpubs were banned from selling any beer packaged for off premise consumption.

If I am not mistaken, brewpubs are still forced to comply with our ridiculous three tier system, which means that they have to beg a BMC distributor to carry their independent product to get it sold at retail outlets. This cuts into the brewpub's profit quite a bit... and don't think for a moment that the distribution companies are lining up to get this beer into stores in any sort of prominent placement.

It's better now, but it has been a long, difficult fight.

Orthobrewsky said:

I remember 3 operating within walking distance of each other at one time: Magic City, The Mill, and Breckenridge. There was also a Taco Mac there at the same time. I really loved that Breckenridge Oatmeal Stout; The Mill had an oatmeal stout at the time which was almost identical. Around that time, my single friend (fellow math prof. here) kept an apartment within walking distance of 5 Points. I was frequently coming down with Star Trek (original) videos which had been coming out on the SciFi channel (director's cuts!) and sleeping on his couch. Nothing like a couple of pitchers or so of great beer, with good food, followed up by imagining that I'm Captain Kirk.

Good times.

Click to expand...

The Mill wasn't a brewpub, they CLAIMED to be... the brewery, Southside Cellars, which was next door brewed the beer and distributed locally. The Mill was able to call itself a brewery for the same reason contract brewers can. And thank you for the comment on the OMS at Breck, I made it I had tweaked the recipe a bit from their corporate version to fit the local market. I brewed there from the time it opened until about 3 months before it closed, then I went to Magic City.

Homebrewdad, as to saying brewpubs weren't crippled; A brewpub, using brewpub-scale equipment is going to make a lot of money over the bar. A LOT. Did you see the figure I posted for Net Profit on over the counter beer ALONE, that didn't include anything the restaurant was doing. IF the restaurant sides, and businesses as a whole, weren't mismanaged they would have been making a KILLING. Now that they can distribute kegged beer, well, it won't really help profits much.. at least not directly... it's mainly a way of using excess capacity. If a brewpub wants to distribute for any reason other than to use excess capacity, they will need to go in with production scale equipment right off the bat and that is a major $ expenditure when you have a cap on production. I didn't see the other laws of historical locations as being a major hurdle since most brewpubs want to go into such places anyway.

When Port City Brewery opened in 1993, they had actually yet to establish the definite presence of a past brewery there yet. The argument they used was that if beer was SERVED locally, it was BREWED locally because it would spoil in transit in the Alabama heat. So, there is a precedent for that...

One thing that brewpubs had going for them was that they could get away with making beer that was outside the ABV limit set by the state... They NEVER checked! Bocks, Doppelbocks, English-style barleywines could be had as seasonals... I am (clears throat) quite certain that these beers appeared on tap in Alabama brewpubs in the 90s

Anywhere you go there are stupid laws and hurdles you have to jump... hoops you have to go through. A brewpub here could be profitable, the reason they failed had nothing to do with brewing, the silly regulations imposed or anything like that. It was mismanagement, pure and simple. I was there, I saw it with my own eyes... and, for what it's worth, I have also brewed at breweries in Michigan, Tennessee, Kentucky, Colorado and Oregon so I have plenty of first hand experience for comparison. Is it BETTER now? Sure! Being able to sell kegs now will help brewpubs in the state, but mainly as a way to get their name out and use excess capacity. But to say they were "crippled" previously is excessive... if anything crippled them (the ones that existed here) it was their own ineptitude.

wailingguitar said:

But to say they were "crippled" previously is excessive... if anything crippled them (the ones that existed here) it was their own ineptitude.

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing this. I'm not arguing that the Mill was or was not a brewpub - the public perceived it as such, which is 9/10 of the fact. I would agree that mismamagement had to be the issue, since that place seemed to be able to print their own money for a time.

My biggest point about the crippling was the ban on non historic sites (and the distribution, though I understand your point about that being for excess production). There may have been an exception in your neck of the woods, but the total lack of brewpubs in this state - along with the many stories of brewpubs killed in the idea stage by this law - back up my claim that the laws here basically prevented new rewpubs from opening.

Neither here nor there, as the laws have finally changed.

wailingguitar said:

The Mill wasn't a brewpub, they CLAIMED to be... the brewery, Southside Cellars, which was next door brewed the beer and distributed locally. The Mill was able to call itself a brewery for the same reason contract brewers can. And thank you for the comment on the OMS at Breck, I made it I had tweaked the recipe a bit from their corporate version to fit the local market. I brewed there from the time it opened until about 3 months before it closed, then I went to Magic City.

Click to expand...

Well then, you, sir, are my hero. When I started all-grain brewing late last summer, I set myself a goal to duplicate that. It is my quest. Can you tell me how I might go about this? I've seen the data given at the Breckenridge website, which isn't terribly specific. Saying you tweaked it a bit makes sense; I bought some in a bottle once in Tennessee and it didn't seem the same to me. My friend who used to drink it with me still works in my department here and has been giving me feedback on all my stouts as I play around with my recipes.

They once told me at the Mill that they had to have the beer shipped from next door across town for 24 hours before it could be brought back and served there. That gave me some sense of how silly our alcohol laws can get here.

I'm not saying it was easy... but my experience was that the location laws, etc. were the least of the problems. Any way, as you say, things have changed... the big changes that would really matter are a long way off though.

Ideally, there would be no distinction between a production brewery and a brewpub as far as state law was concerned. Make what you can sell, sell it over the bar, bottled, draft, etc. Until that happens.... well, you know...

If anything, the new law regarding taprooms/vs. brewpubs is ridiculous... a production brewery can sell beer over the bar.. but not have a restaurant... a brewpub can sell food, beer over the bar or kegged beer for distribution, but not bottles, and a production cap of 10kbbl. This makes even less sense than the way it was before! It was restrictive, but at least there was clear distinction and a (flawed) logic. Ok, it is better in some ways, but disproportionate in others. One little loop hole, though, since the law specifies "kegged" beer for distribution where brewpubs are concerned, super-market or specialty store shelf space can still be obtained by using 5L mini-kegs. Profit margins being thin on kegged beers, and razor thin on packaged beer, there isn't a lot of money to be made this way... but the visibility and name recognition are worth a lot more.

The biggest problems breweries here face are the distinction between brewpub/micro brewery and the 3 tier system... problems not exclusive to Alabama. Without out the first, and more so without the later, breweries could be much more successful.

There are compromises that could be made, inching along as we have been... lifting the distinction between micro and pub would make sense. It's close now anyway... Another baby-step might be allowing a certain barrelage or production percentage to be self-distributed... or allow self distribution within home county or a certain radius. That would help A LOT. Southside Cellars MIGHT have survived as they were if they had been allowed to self-distribute in Jefferson County.

Orthobrewsky said:

Well then, you, sir, are my hero. When I started all-grain brewing late last summer, I set myself a goal to duplicate that. It is my quest. Can you tell me how I might go about this? I've seen the data given at the Breckenridge website, which isn't terribly specific. Saying you tweaked it a bit makes sense; I bought some in a bottle once in Tennessee and it didn't seem the same to me. My friend who used to drink it with me still works in my department here and has been giving me feedback on all my stouts as I play around with my recipes.

They once told me at the Mill that they had to have the beer shipped from next door across town for 24 hours before it could be brought back and served there. That gave me some sense of how silly our alcohol laws can get here.

Click to expand...

Well, I am humbled... thank you I will look and see if I have the recipe still... if not, I am pretty sure I have at least grain bill proportions from an inventory sheet. I could extrapolate from there. A couple things off the top of my head; Actually reduced the base malt a LITTLE bit to bring in line with 5% abv limit at the time... we also shortened the mash time, mashed at 158F and reduced aeration. This all resulted in a beer that had a little more body and sweetness than the corporate product. Used Nottingham yeast.

The situation with The Mill was nuts... basically, they didn't want the headache of actually being a brewpub... laying out massive $ on equipment, permits, licensing, etc. They talked a guy that worked at a car dealership of all things into opening the brewery next door. Poor guy knew about as much about running a brewery as I know about running a particle accelerator. They were put in the basement of the building next door, in a space that was RIDICULOUSLY too small... because of space had to use a brewhouse that was about half the size they needed. They hired a brewmaster that, while a nice guy, making decent beer, had some odd ideas of how a brewery should run (owner thought he was doing well to hire a Davis grad). Very labor intensive, took three guys to work the place... doing a job that one person should have been able to do with the right equipment. They didn't have room for a bottling line so they had virtually no name recognition (shelf space, shelf space, shelf space to be recognized/create demand). The beer was good, not great, and with two real brewpubs and several multi-tap bars right in their neighborhood... well... *sigh* things worked against them from many angles.... Then, yes, the beer going to The Mill had to go out to a distributor and be trucked back to them. If the owners of The Mill had run it as an actual brewpub it would have worked SO much better.

I just looked at the ALCAP website, wow!!!

I feel so bad for all you non-ALCAP types there in Alabama. I am amazed that the type of mis-information and "brainwashing" that ALCAP projects can even exist in this modern age!

From what I read it is as if everytime a person drinks they will become drunk and eventually all people who drink will become alcoholics! (including our children)
Yes I know you cannot become an alcoholic unless you drink "demon rum"!

Using that analogy, all pedophiles use computers to engage in their disgusting acts and we are using computers right now so, oh my gosh, we are all going to become pedophiles! Wait, ALCAP has a website, they are going to become pedophiles too! Oh the humanity!

Sorry for the off topic rant but I just cannot fathom what goes on in the brains of people who buy into this insanity.

I live in Pensacola, Fl now but am originally from Alabama. This whole thing encouraged me to actually become a paid member of Free the Hops the other day.

I do want to say that some of the best homebrew we have at the Pensacola beerfest every year is from the Alabama and Mississippi homebrew clubs. I look forward to having a beer eith those guys again this tears beerfest.

Hopefully soon we can get it legalized in all 50 states and grow the hobby.

KevinW said:

I just looked at the ALCAP website, wow!!!

I feel so bad for all you non-ALCAP types there in Alabama. I am amazed that the type of mis-information and "brainwashing" that ALCAP projects can even exist in this modern age!

From what I read it is as if everytime a person drinks they will become drunk and eventually all people who drink will become alcoholics! (including our children)
Yes I know you cannot become an alcoholic unless you drink "demon rum"!

Using that analogy, all pedophiles use computers to engage in their disgusting acts and we are using computers right now so, oh my gosh, we are all going to become pedophiles! Wait, ALCAP has a website, they are going to become pedophiles too! Oh the humanity!

Sorry for the off topic rant but I just cannot fathom what goes on in the brains of people who buy into this insanity.

Click to expand...

The truly sad thing is some of our legislators are members and proponents of this lunatic organization.
I wrote them an email a while back with a simple question. Who do they think they are proclaiming themselves the "Alabama's Moral Compass"?
Needless to say I never got a response.
I wish more people would visit their website so you can see how nutty these people are.
Churches can't legally participate in politics or they will lose their tax exempt status. They use a front organization like this to try and force their backwards ideals on people. They have even threatened to run "one of their own candidates" against Mac McCutcheon in the next election because he sponsored out HB bill.
This infuriates me to no end.

Kingfish said:

Pearly Gates ( www.yelp.com/biz/pearly-gates-natural-foods-huntsville ) sells brewing supplies. Nice little shop.

Click to expand...

Pearly Gates is closed - the IRS siezed everything when the old lady died.

thargrav said:

Pearly Gates is closed - the IRS siezed everything when the old lady died.

Click to expand...

Died? Whoa... when did that happen?

A few months ago. I'm sure her daughter was suprised since she was supposed to take over the business.

Wow... I have to be honest and say I never liked shopping there (prices high, hops not refrigerated, no liquid yeast, couldn't mill grain), but at least they had some stuff... and it had been there for a LOOOOOONG time... sad to see it go

Yep , I noticed the sign that said they were closed the other day when I went into the electronic's store next door. I was going to grab some dry yeast while I was in the area but doesn't sound like they will be opening back up.

wailingguitar said:

Wow... I have to be honest and say I never liked shopping there (prices high, hops not refrigerated, no liquid yeast, couldn't mill grain), but at least they had some stuff... and it had been there for a LOOOOOONG time... sad to see it go

Click to expand...

I had no issue with their prices - they were typical for a local shop without on-line orders. I own kegkits and I've had people calling every day since they closed asking if I sold brewing supplies. Most calls have been for winemaking kits and supplies - I guess they had quite a following. I've been steering everyone to Alabrew because I have not sold ingredients since my business failed & re-started.

I saw that Pearly Gates has re-opened in Huntsville yesterday.

I drove by today but did not have time to stop in. Maybe they will be open Saturday morning.

I stopped by Pealy Gates today and they are open again. The original owner's daughter, Deanna is running the store.

And the good news is she's open longer hours than her mother was - she is open until 6 PM Monday through Saturday.

Also, there is no smoking in the store - locals may remember that Deanna's mother smoked in the store - a lot.

The store phone number is 256-534-6233.

Have you all heard about the homebrew store that was raided in Birmingham by the ABC?

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2012/09/abc_board_attorney_brewing_equ.html

Meanwhile, other stores operate without a problem. Did the owners just neglect to pay the bribes to the right people or should we all be concerned about seizure of our own equipment?

Only if you live in the great state of Alabama!

Orthobrewsky said:

Have you all heard about the homebrew store that was raided in Birmingham by the ABC?

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2012/09/abc_board_attorney_brewing_equ.html

Meanwhile, other stores operate without a problem. Did the owners just neglect to pay the bribes to the right people or should we all be concerned about seizure of our own equipment?

Click to expand...

Their mistake was applying for a liquor license.

That apparently wasn't a problem for wal-mart...

Or the other retail stores who sell Mr. Beer kits during the Christmas holidays.

"It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation in this state to manufacture, sell, give away or have in possession any still, apparatus, appliance or any device or substitute therefore to be used for the purpose of manufacturing any prohibited liquors or beverages."

Better start raiding people's houses to confiscate their thermometers.

gcdowd said:

"It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation in this state to manufacture, sell, give away or have in possession any still, apparatus, appliance or any device or substitute therefore to be used for the purpose of manufacturing any prohibited liquors or beverages."

Better start raiding people's houses to confiscate their thermometers.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. It doesn't say any device that can be used for the purpose of manufacturing alcohol, it says any device that is "to be used" which is a statement of intent rather than capability. Now, you certainly get into the issue of how one proves intent, yadda, yadda, yadda, but as i read it, there's nothing in the law that says that anything that CAN be used to make alcohol is illegal.

Yeah I was just being facetious.

Word is there are 2 other stores in the state that have a liquor license and sell homebrew supplies. Not sure how they get by with it if that is the problem.

I suspect that this is like so many things in the media - We are hearing something that is based on actual events, but none of the details are right.

The difference is the other two stores already existed and this is a new establishment. If they had opened as a homebrew shop then applied for a liqour license a couple of years later the state would not have noticed.

And in other news: Deep South Home Brew closed yesterday, supposedly for personal reasons, not due to the recent HC raid. Supposedly.

I hear rumors that there is big news about to break.