Can't get washed yeast to separate

Hey gang,

I have read/consumed the washing sticky and still can't get mine to separate.

My last batch I added a full gal of water to the primary, swirled like mad, let it sit for 20 mins and it was completely separated into yeast and diluted beer.

So I decanted off most of the diluted beer and sent it into my growler. 20 minutes later I have 2 layers, diluted beer and yeast.

My question is this. Since I primary for 4 weeks usually, could this be having an affect on my success?

Thanks in advance
Toy4Rick

Toy4Rick said:

Hey gang,

I have read/consumed the washing sticky and still can't get mine to separate.

My last batch I added a full gal of water to the primary, swirled like mad, let it sit for 20 mins and it was completely separated into yeast and diluted beer.

So I decanted off most of the diluted beer and sent it into my growler. 20 minutes later I have 2 layers, diluted beer and yeast.

My question is this. Since I primary for 4 weeks usually, could this be having an affect on my success?

Thanks in advance
Toy4Rick

Click to expand...

Which yeast is it? I have decanted even without being able to see clear layers before and had success. Even if you get some trub it's not really going to hurt you in the long run too much.

Some yeasts only need 5-10 minutes to separate for washing, others stay in suspension for hours. Just keep an eye on it and see what it looks like. When the layer of trub starts looking pretty formed and there's no white band of yeast formed yet, that's when it's time to pour into the next vessel.

OK, let's try this one

WLP002 Ale Yeast

I let the growler sit out for a couple of hours to warm up, shake it real good and now I get this. Why is the bottom layer so much lighter then what is just above? I thought the darker would settle and I want the middle layer

What am I missing?

Your yeast is above the white trub in this instance. When you start to see the layer forming, dump the supernatent to another vessel. Keep the trub in the last one.

So in this case, the yeast is the darker 1/4" layer and the lighter layer on the bottom is trub?

WOW and I thought I understood washing, now I am completely confused

Toy4Rick

Yes, the yeast layer is above the trub.

Umm.... no. The yeast is the lighter layer at the bottom

I won't argue. I believe it to be above.

Some times things settle out differently. Sometimes the yeast is at the bottom with trub above and sometimes the trub is at the bottom with yeast above. From my experience, judging by the picture... the yeast is on the bottom in this case.

It's the creamy layer. Your bottom layer looks like there's other stuff in there.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/reusing-yeast-slurry-143058/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-yeast-vs-trub-185369/#post2147846

I'm thinking the darker creamy layer on top is the yeast, not the fluffy junk on the bottom. Shake it back up and as soon as the the creamy layer starts to form decant.

If you're really concerned decant the second into a seperate santized container with distilled water and see how that looks -- but based on what I see the top layer in that pic is the yeast.

WLP002 if I am not mistaken is the Fuller's London ESB yeast and it is EXTREMELY flocculant. Knowing this as well as the fact that it is a pretty prolific reproducer and given the methods the OP described, I really believe it is that lower layer. This yeast looks like cottage cheese after just a few mins of settling. This rapid flocculation can trap errant "trub" particles resulting in what "outside" is calling "other stuff in there."

I admit that I could be wrong, but the facts point in this direction.

One test you can do, especially with this yeast is to tip the growler so as to disturb the area in which these layers touch. If that middle layer seems powdery and wants to go into suspension with little agitation, but the bottom layer remains stable, I can guarantee that the stable layer is the yeast.

This does not remain true with all yeasts, but is easy and useful for the the highly flocculant strains.

Trub is also like cottage cheese with all that is a part of it, hops, protein, etc. I won't push this point anymore. The yeast is clearly defined and in a nice compact layer like it always is. I don't care the yeast type, it will have a density lower than trub.

That definitely could be.. I've washed lots of strains but now WLP002.

There really does appear to be enough suspended yeast in the liquid to still wash and get a good starter from. The liquid appears to be good and milky with healty yeast. I bet decanting the liquid in the picture from this into a pint jar would still result in a flock'd bed of at least 1/4" or so once it's cold crashed.

But again -- I've never washed 002.

The bottom layer is the yeast, period. End of story.

bottlebomber said:

The bottom layer is the yeast, period. End of story.

Click to expand...

I am glad you are confident.

You could probably even tell from the texture, if you took some out. The yeast is smooth, dense and creamy, the trub is loose and spongy.

step said:

some times things settle out differently. Sometimes the yeast is at the bottom with trub above and sometimes the trub is at the bottom with yeast above. From my experience, judging by the picture... The yeast is on the bottom in this case.

Click to expand...

+ 1

bottlebomber said:

The bottom layer is the yeast, period. End of story.

Click to expand...

Agreed. It's 002, it's on the bottom.

This is why washing highly flocculent, English yeasts is so difficult. The yeast is on the bottom, along with lots of trub and other stuff you don't want. To separate it, you basically do the opposite of normal yeast washing - decant the yeast layer on the bottom and agitate until you start to separate the trub from the yeast. It takes a while, but eventually after a few decantings the yeast will settle out into a solid layer below the trub.

If you were to just save the top layer, like you would w/ S-05, you'd get the least healthy, flocculent yeasts and your next batch would most likely either over-attenuate or stay very cloudy. A better way to harvest these yeasts is top cropping, where you wait until the yeast has attenuated the beer nearly 50% and then skim the yeast after the second krausen.

I agree with the yeast being on the bottom in this case. I like 002 for my pale ales and have been getting huge blow offs with some higher gravity versions, appropriately sized starters, pure O2 and a carboy that's a bit undersized for the job. In the jar I used for my last blow off, there was about 3/4" of yeast settled on the bottom when all was said and done. I washed the yeast from the bottom of the carboy as well, and from a texture and color standpoint, the yeast from the blow off matched the bottom layer. I think the previous comments about 002 being highly flocculant are correct, and I would also agree with top cropping this one, or just about any yeast if you are capable of doing so. The problem with washing if you are doing successive generations is that you isolate the more flocculant yeast as time goes on and in several generations the attenuation will suffer because of it. Top cropping will result in a better cross section of the yeast population, but I'm off on a tangent at this point. Appologies.

I'm another that thinks the bottom layer is the yeast. Just last month I made an ESB with the wyeast version of this yeast. I washed the cake from the bottom of my fermentor and had a hell of a time getting it completely clean. I saved the bottom layer and the top layer just to see which one was the yeast. The top layer was very loose, not compacted, and never formed a solid cake. It must have been trub and hops. I washed the bottom layer 2 or 3 times and it still has some trub, but that's where the yeast are.

Thanks everyone for the very interesting thread.

The bottom layer is very compact, like mud actually, almost impossible to get it back into suspension w/o a stir plate. When I made the starter, I turned it off about 10 mins before pitching and I had the mud layer almost immediately.

The middle layer is very silty/wispy if that makes any sense. Even after I decanted last night, the same 2 layers exist with the same characteristics

The bottom layer is not clean like the middle layer, it's lighter and I can clearly see darker particles like what I would expect to see in trub

What is it that you've done here? Just re-washed what was in the first jar?

No, this is the result of decanting from the first jar (growler)

Steps to reproduce
1) Added 1 gal boiled water to the fermentation bucket
2) Waited 20 mins and decanted into a growler, put into the fridge
3) Waited too long, opps, waited until the next night
4) Let it sit out for 2 hours and shook it vigorously and let sit for 20 mins
5) Took the pic of the first jar (growler)
6) Decanted into 2 1Qt mason jars, recent pic after 24 hours in fridge

Toy4Rick

The upper layer looks like the yeast I've washed before. However, I've never washed WLP002. Have a little DME around? Why not put this to the test in starters. Set up two flasks or growlers with some wort, then decant the two layers into the two separate flasks. See which one wins the race!

The yeast is the bottom layer. The top wispy layer is dead yeast and trub.

The thought of making a starter from each layer is interesting.

With the newly purchased yeast, I made a starter and after 48 hours, never got any krausen. The whole time it looked like cottage cheese and the only way I knew I had activity was I just got tons more cottage cheese looking stuff. I had the same thing happen with a new batch of WLP002 last year (oops, forgot I had some in the fridge and bought more )

Is there another way to tell which is which at this point?

I am inclined to make a starter with both layers just to be sure I don't miss the good stuff Don't want to whip up a batch and under pitch

Toy4Rick

The bottom layer is your yeast.

WLP002 is uber flocculant, it will drop before everything else, every time.

I e-mailed white labs and they confirming all the bottom layer folks (my mistake earlier):

Looking at the picture, the very bottom layer is definitely the yeast. Yes, this strain is super flocculent so it will drop even before the trub layer does. If you shake or swirl it, you'll see the yeast start to settle out again in a matter of minutes. Usually the middle layer is the yeast, but not with this particular strain (and other really flocculent English strains). The yeast is usually a creamy, beige color and is fairly dense. That should help you decipher between the different layers.