DITCHES (Dual Immersion Thermal Coil Heat Exchange System)

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Also, I coiled the 50' of 1/2" stainless that I have. NO PROBLEM

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Were did you get the stainless tubing from? The 1/2 inch tubing I saw would run about $400 bones...

Ebay... I searched "(stainless, SS) (coil, tube, tubing)" everyday for a couple months until I found it. They come up occasionally... I think I got it for about $30 or similar.

Wow! I can see you've been quite busy lately! I have been myself and haven't spent much time around the forums here. Looks awesome, man! Very nice work with the drawings, plans, etc. :rockin:

I bet you are getting more and more excited every day.

Personally, I am more a KISS kinda guy, as you have seen from my build. Form follows function. Of course, that said, I didn't have the budget that you have, either, so....

I also agree that cleaning may get to be a sizable chore with as much stuff as you have going on there. I have never really (yet) had a need for a grant in my system.

Good Luck, buddy!

sleepystevenson said:

I have never really (yet) had a need for a grant in my system.

Good Luck, buddy!

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Thanks for the kind words!

I have removed the grant from my system design as well. I can always add it back later if I need to.

sleepystevenson said:

Personally, I am more a KISS kinda guy, as you have seen from my build. Form follows function. Of course, that said, I didn't have the budget that you have, either, so....

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Based on your gallery pics, your setup seems pretty advanced I'd say! Do you have any information that describes your setup and how you "kept it simple"? I'm always looking for new ideas (and I'm a KISS type of guy too).

Kal

Any build pics yet? I'm curious how you wrapped the Keggles.

Yes, curious too Justin if you've made any advances or have pictures of your setup yet...

Kal

I wish....

Justin: Why stainless for the heat transfer coils? Why not copper? I thought copper had better heat transfer than stainless.

Kal

Hey Kal,

Copper does have better conductivity. However, with the thin walls we are dealing with, the conductivity of the metal will have very little affect on the heat transfer process. The temperature differential between the cooling liquid and the hot wort and the ability to transfer the heat through out the wort mass (via circulation in my case) is much more important than the metal used.

I chose SS because in my system the coils will be a permanent fixture. I am worried about being able to get the coils clean and maintain a sanitary environment. SS is the best candidate because I can use caustics and steam cleaning and whatever else I need without fear or dielectric corrosion or other negative affects to the system.

Plus, I have an addiction to stainless and I found the coil on EBay for very cheap.

I am so jealous of your build! I am hoping to get my first BoilerMaker and my 1/2 compression fittings by the end of February or the middle of March. Then I can finish my boil kettle.

Update. I have switched gears a bit due to the lack of availability of QD's from MoreBeer. I am now using all Tri-clover fittings for my connections. It will not be a sanitary system (it will have threads in many places), but it should be easy to use and completely bomb proof.

Anyway, here is my new parts list and purchase order:


Here is the updated schematic:


And here is my still to purchase view:

Nice!

Still going with that bendy plastic Loc-Line stuff for the sparge arm?

The sparge arm is the last thing I need. Everything else has arrived so far. I would prefer something stainless that is height adjustable but I'm at a loss... What other sparge arm options have you looked at? Just curious.

I think for the first few batches I may go the "Sabco" method:

The simplest 'sparge arm' I've seen is the Sabco method. They use silicone tubing, long enough to curl around the circumference of the tun, then the point down into the grain bed. You would think introducing the sparge water this way would cause channeling, but they cite a lot of research and trials that give no indication of channeling or inefficiency. Sometimes simple is good I spoze. Here is a picture of the Sabco method, when the tun is full the tubing mostly floats and the tip will naturally go below the wort level just a bit.

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Other than the QD's and the propane vs electric my setup's almost identical so far... so good work!

Kal

I am up in the air about the sparge arm. John Beere, who I took the idea from, said his has formed some cracks over time but that he is still happy with it. I don't know if that sounds like something I want to deal with.

The sparge arm will be my last purchase as well and at this point I think I am just going to stay with my manual sparge application method. I have discussed it with Menschmachine and we think it may be the best sparge method available for homebrewers with setups similar to ours.

Basically, what I do now is just use a straight section of silicon tube and disperse my sparge water over the surface of the grain manually. I use the stream of sparge water to break up the surface of the grain bed and to evenly distribute the flow. This avoids channelling and in both Mensch and my experience it allows for very fast fly sparging with good efficiency and wort quality.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Basically, what I do now is just use a straight section of silicon tube and disperse my sparge water over the surface of the grain manually. I use the stream of sparge water to break up the surface of the grain bed and to evenly distribute the flow. This avoids channelling and in both Mensch and my experience it allows for very fast fly sparging with good efficiency and wort quality.

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Interesting. Good to know. I'll by fly sparging too I think since I have two pumps like yourself.

Would be nice to have something a bit more automated though. Moving the tobe around manually for 60-90 minutes during sparge has to be pretty boring!

What about prior 60-90 minute recirc (vorlauf) of the mash? You going to just rest the hose on the grain bed with the end curved like in my pic above? I'm assuming this would create some circular water flow on top of the grain bed which would hopefully result in water passing through the grain bed evenly too (no channelling).

During recirc, I just put the hose on top like the Sabco system does. It seems to work just fine.

The sparge system I use now is nice because it seems that a long slow fly sparge is not necessary. I sparge out my full 12.5 gallons in about 40 minutes. Mensch goes even faster finishing in about 30 minutes. I dial my system in at 75% but usually end up closer to 80%. I don't want higher efficiency and try to keep it low. Mensch is all about the efficiency and runs his system at about 90%.

We think the reason we are able to maintain high efficiency at such high speeds is because of the disturbed surface of the grain bed, and the micro channelling that happens all over the mash with this method. All our evidence is anecdotal, but it works well. Also, I stumbled on the idea because my LHBS guy told me it is what he does. So at least a couple other people are doing it with success.

Sounds like you've got it already working nicely on your current system - so why even bother considering anything different (like Loc-Line) for the new setup? What's it going to get you that you don't have now? Freedom to do something else for that 40 minutes because you won't be doing it manually?

Kal

CBBaron said:

This design seems to have plenty of redundant systems.
2 coils where 1 would be sufficient
4 heat sources where 2 would be sufficient

This is the engineer in me trying to eliminate unnecessary extras. If you want them then go for it.

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BUT IT GOES TO ELEVEN! :rockin:

-OCD

beerocd said:

BUT IT GOES TO ELEVEN! :rockin:

-OCD

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What does that mean?

I saw this post in another thread about a Stout recipe and was also confused.
I think it means it is good/cool/extreme in the sense of a radio volume knob going to 11 and not just 10

Pretty much, yeah. It came from the movie This is Spinal Tap where a fictional metal band used a particular brand of amplifier because the volume knobs went up to 11 instead of the standard 10. When asked why not just use a louder amplifier turned up to 10, the guitarist replies "...but... this one goes to eleven."

Cool. In that case, thanks

It's a reference to the classic mock documentary movie 'Spinal Tap' where one the band members is explaining how they're "louder" because their amps all go to 11 instead of the usual 10:

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

Video: www.metacafe.com/watch/70314/these_go_to_11




What's interesting is that this phrase has such as cult following that some commercial audio equipment now "goes to 11" as a nod to this classic mockumentary.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven



Kal

Yeah, what he said.

Focus people, Focus.

Just kidding. I didn't get it either. Good to know.

Did you ever finish this? Or have any pictures of how far you have come? I printed out your parts list and diagram and was hoping for real pictures to go with it.

Slowly collecting stainless. I only have about $2000 to go I said from the beggining this was a long term project.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

What does that mean?

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Sorry, lost track of this thread. Yes, I was saying it's cool.


-OCD

Getting closer.......

Here is my needs list now. I may have something to show soon.

Update:

I have all my Tri-clamps and most of my stainless. I think I will be able to start building soon!!!!! :rockin:

I have also changed my design. Here is the new look. I am going to build it with the intention of using a brewtroller.

cljustin- Your message box is full. If you want the build sheet, please send me your email address so I can send it to you.

I would love to have a build sheet myself, if you wouldn't mind.

So here is my current rig. It is still pretty makeshift but is starting to make some progress. I now have all my tri-clover fittings, and am getting closer to full stainless. I only have one stainless coil at this point, so I am using a copper CFC that I have to augment my cooling power.





The stand is just cobbled together to hold the vessels at about the same height while sitting on their respective burners. The HLT is on the left with a sight glass, a thermo, and a dip tube. The MLT is center with a thermo, a false bottom, and a ball valve. The BK is on the right with a hard mounted cooling coil, a drain, a return, and a thermo.

The CFC and my march pump are under the MLT.

Here is a better shot of the BK:







Looking into the BK:



Dip tube:



Return:



And a better shot of the coil connections:

Here is the pump/CFC:



and a better shot of the chiller:

Looking nice... run any batches through it yet?

The CFC looks kinda small - did you make that or buy it somewhere?

I got the counterflow as a hand-me-down by chance. It is a copper in copper coil with a full 1/2" flow. I used it on my last batch and it did pretty well. I circulate chilled wort back into the kettle for a full volume cool so this is really just some added cooling power.

That ss coil looks great. Also if you are going to have this in your basement eventually are you going to use NG? If not I would have to ask why not just go electric, and that way you can automate a lot of the brewing. just my $0.02 but all in all it looks great and cannot wait to have the room to make something like that.

Looks great so far - thanks for the pics!

I was glad to see this:



My 50' stainless HERMS coil in the HLT didn't come out perfectly round either and it bugged me. My coil walls are x2 as thick as yours so I had a ***** of a time coiling it. In the end figured I should have bought something with thinner walls like yours but it looks like an absolutely perfect coil isn't possible by hand even with thinner walls. (I'm not knocking your setup - it looks great!)

Some pictures of my 50' SS coiling process for the HLT if you're curious:



Trying to wrap the SS coil around the old fermentation bucket DID NOT work at all. The coil's simply too stiff. You need a coiling machine to get a perfect coil. So I did it this way:









Kal

The setup looks great Kal!

Yeah the stainless is a bear. I think the next coil I do I will take breaks as I go. I got it almost perfect for a while, but your hands and forarms just get to sore and I started screwing up.

Man those Blichmann's look nice. I should have at least cleaned up my nasty keggle before snapping the pics. Someday.....

As far as gas goes.... I like cooking with gas. Plain and simple. It is like my copper and brass bias, I know it is good and fine to use, I just don't like it. I would like to go NG but do not have that service at my house currently. Maybe a couple years from now. I brew outdoors now, but eventually I will have a nice ventilation system in the basement.

Slow and steady wins the race.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

The setup looks great Kal!

Yeah the stainless is a bear. I think the next coil I do I will take breaks as I go. I got it almost perfect for a while, but your hands and forarms just get to sore and I started screwing up.

Slow and steady wins the race.

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This is why you make a plug with a starting slot installed in the lathe with a back gear, two people needed with one uncoiling the other coiling. A 3rd person with good old Crisco Lard on a rag coating the tubing before it enters the coilers gloves and you can make perfect coils out of stainless.

let the lathe do all the work you just maintain the pressure feeding the plug.
The ends then be bent with a hard tubing bender for stainless preventing any kinks. I have to admit I have screwed up copper and stainless tubing coils in the past.

Two things....Wow!

and also

Tell me about those connectors (the flat disc ones). What are they called and what are their advantages?