Perhaps another way to gain some perspective on this is to consider a water alkaline enough that a base malt mash comes in at pH 5.8. Since it is claimed that 5.2 will bring the pH of this mash to 5.2 we note that a drop of 0.6 pH is required of the product. As most mashes have a pound of grain per quart or so we will assume .5 kg/L (just to make the math easier). And we will also assume the malt has a buffering capacity of 25 mEq/Kg-ph which is not an unreasonable assumption. Thus 5.2 has to provide 0.6*0.5*25 = 7.5 mEq of H+ per liter. We know that 5.2 is essentially monobasic sodium phosphate. If we assumed that all the sodium phosphate released its proton it would then require 7.5 mEq/L sodium phosphate to move this mash to 5.2. That is 7.5*136 = 1020 grams of the salt of which 7.5*23 = 172.5 mg is sodium. There is no way I would consider adding over a gram of this product to each liter of my water especially knowing that it would result in 175 mg/L sodium. And especially when there are simpler, more effective, more predictable means at hand i.e. dilution with RO and addition of sauermalz.
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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FredTheNuke
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I'm game for trying the Sauermalz (actually I just ordered 4oz of 88% Lactic Acid from midwest). I will try a batch with it right next to a batch with 5.2 just out of curiousity. Being I mostly brew German Pilsner really the only component of my water I'm attempting to shift is the pH. So I will do one more 15 gallon batch with 5.2 (my last one spent the first 23 minutes after dough in below the target temp of 154 (was at around 146) because the HERMS got stopped up from the super sugary wort. Recovered it and added 10 minutes to the time at 154 to make up for some of this without overdoing it. Then I will do a batch with lactic acid - same ingredients, temperatures, times, etc. My Beersmith efficiency was 73% on this last batch (with the screwed up temperatures). I'm assuming a good overall "test" will be batch efficiency as that is the primary purpose for getting the pH down during the enzymatic conversion.
AJ, I'm mostly on board with that analysis excepting that I think you're mixing pH measurement standards. Shouldn't the 5.2 be converted from what I expect is a mash temperature measurement to a room temperature measurement? 5.2 @ mash temp --> ~5.5 @ room temp? Thus the total drop required of that buffer is more like 0.3 std units?
It still means that a bunch of sodium is added to the wort and the product is questionable.
That's certainly not the only thing shaky in my quickie calculation. But if I design a phosphate buffer for 5.2 at 50 °C (mash in temp for a protein rest) that buffer would buffer at 5.225 at 20 °C (theoretically).
In my musings on this stuff I at one time thought that maybe that was the idea behind it i.e. it only buffers to 5.7 but that's 5.4 at mash temp. I don't think that's it though.
In my musings on this stuff I at one time thought that maybe that was the idea behind it i.e. it only buffers to 5.7 but that's 5.4 at mash temp. I don't think that's it though.
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Howdy AJ,
I'm still working on some data, but I still find that 5.2 works for me with my water and my grist. Since you're way more knowledgeable than I will ever be, can you look at this water report and let me know if possibly there's something here that would somehow make my admittedly not-so-scientific results much different than your very scientific results?
Calcium 57 MG/L
Magnesium 16 MG/L
Sodium 14 MG/L
Chloride 3 MG/L
Sulfate 5.0 MG/L
Alkalinity 10MG/L
PH is 7.21
(these are cut and pasted from an e-mail from my water provider)
And, this is the pH meter I'm using; do you see any flaw with it? I know temperature plays a role, and this purports to be ATC; though I honestly have my doubts about anything that claims ATC.
http://www.ecrater.com/p/6725250/hanna-ph-ec-tds-conductivity
I'm going to continue to collect more data and will hopefully be able to add more information later.
Thanks.
Can you tell us more about what you mean when you say it works. Clearly this would imply that you get mash pH of 5.2 but at what temperature? At what phase in the mash? With what sort of grist? Etc.
This is pretty easy water. I don't see any problems with it.
I have begun to suspect that the biggest problem with the inexpensive meters may be that they drift and/or have a stability criterion that is too relaxed such that they grab calibration measurements before they should (i.e. before allowing the potential to really come to equilibrium). ATC should always be regarded with suspicion. If the electrode's isoelectric pH is off ATC can induce quite a bit of error. For this reason buffers and samples should all be at the same, or nearly the same, temperature.
Step 11b in the pH Calibration Sticky is designed to detect problems with stability and isoelectric pH. Be sure you do that check.
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#1
10lb 2-row
1lb Munich
0.75lb 60L
0.5lb flaked barley
with 1 TBSP "5.2" in the mash
post mash pH (reading taken in the wort collecting vessel) = 5.18 @ 152*F
single sparge pH mid-draining (reading taken in the wort collecting vessel) = 5.29 @ 168*F
#2
19lb 2-row
2lb Munich
1.5lb 60L
0.5lb flaked barley
(in essence, a double batch of the previous)
without "5.2"
post mash pH (reading taken in the wort collecting vessel) = 5.45 @ 152*F
1st sparge pH mid-draining (reading taken in the wort collecting vessel) = 5.65 @ 164*F
2nd sparge pH mid draining (reading taken in the wort collecting vessel) = 5.84 @ 169*F
I'm hesistant to draw conclusions from these numbers as I haven't sat down and compared variables (mash ratio mainly, since the 2nd grist bill was essentially double the 1st grist bill; the fact that I single sparged the first one and double sparged the second), and I'm not sure I completely trust my pH meter.
Basically, I'm wanting to try and isolate why it appears to work for me; short of a complete side-by-side experiment, which admittedly, I'm too lazy to do at this poing (not even in the name of science
) Also, I know it shouldn't matter, but could results very In vitro v. In sutu?
Yeah, I need to look into this more, especially since the probe's temp reading maxes out a 60*C.
I do need to re-read that.
Thanks again.
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I tested the probe tonight and it read true with calibration at 4 and 7. I heated the solution to 164*F and it read 6.92 in the 7.0 calibration soultion which is probably spot on as the calibration solution says it should read 6.97 at 50*C (~122*F).
I'm thinking more and more that my probe works, and I will now for sure do side-by-side trials with and without 5.2 with my water.
I'll probably start another thread with those results. Thanks again AJ, for helping us understand water chemistry.
I'm thinking more and more that my probe works, and I will now for sure do side-by-side trials with and without 5.2 with my water.
I'll probably start another thread with those results. Thanks again AJ, for helping us understand water chemistry.
I have wondered for a long time if there were any circumstances under which 5.2 would work as advertized and while I still haven't found any where it will 'lock in' mash pH at 5.2 I have figured out how to get to pH 5.2 using it. It is a mixture of two phoshphate salts. Malt is also contains quite a bit of a mixture of phosphate salts. We often add calcium to brewing liquor as it reacts with phosphate to precipitate apatite and release acid
6H2PO4- + 10Ca++ + 2H2O ---> Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2 + 14H+
(just the monobasic form of phosphate shown)
5.2 is mostly the monobasic sodium salt so if you add calcium ion to it hydrogen ions will be released and the pH will drop. If I add enough calcium chloride and 5.2 to RO water I can get the pH down to 5.2 but I have to add a lot of each but nonetheless you can get to 5.2 with this product. Thus the thesis is that if your water has high permanent hardness (i.e. lots of calcium and magnesium but little bicarbonate) and the mash pH is close to 5.2 without it (i.e. if you have a lot of dark malts as part if the grain bill) then the calcium reaction with the extra phosphate may be enough to drop the pH to 5.2.
AZ_IPA's water and grist ostensibly look good from this perspective at first. With a no - 5.2 pH of 5.45 he's pretty close (because of the 60L dark crystal) and he shows lots of hardness and very low alkalinity but the sulfate and chloride are also too low IOW the report is way out of balance and not to be trusted. So perhaps his case fits this hypothesis, perhaps not.
But lets suppose it does work in this way under the hypothesized conditions. Why would we use it?. If I wanted mash pH 5.2 and didn't mind more phosphate why not just add enough phosphoric acid to get 5.2? You'd spare yourself the sodium.
6H2PO4- + 10Ca++ + 2H2O ---> Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2 + 14H+
(just the monobasic form of phosphate shown)
5.2 is mostly the monobasic sodium salt so if you add calcium ion to it hydrogen ions will be released and the pH will drop. If I add enough calcium chloride and 5.2 to RO water I can get the pH down to 5.2 but I have to add a lot of each but nonetheless you can get to 5.2 with this product. Thus the thesis is that if your water has high permanent hardness (i.e. lots of calcium and magnesium but little bicarbonate) and the mash pH is close to 5.2 without it (i.e. if you have a lot of dark malts as part if the grain bill) then the calcium reaction with the extra phosphate may be enough to drop the pH to 5.2.
AZ_IPA's water and grist ostensibly look good from this perspective at first. With a no - 5.2 pH of 5.45 he's pretty close (because of the 60L dark crystal) and he shows lots of hardness and very low alkalinity but the sulfate and chloride are also too low IOW the report is way out of balance and not to be trusted. So perhaps his case fits this hypothesis, perhaps not.
But lets suppose it does work in this way under the hypothesized conditions. Why would we use it?. If I wanted mash pH 5.2 and didn't mind more phosphate why not just add enough phosphoric acid to get 5.2? You'd spare yourself the sodium.
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I need to send my water to ward's for a better analysis. And my probe reads within the +/- .02 at 40*F as well, so I'm more confident in my probe.
Your point about why use 5.2 when you can just add phosphoric acid and limit the sodium is well said, and if the goal is to control your water chemistry completely, I will concede that "5.2" isn't the answer. But I guess it just bugs me how anti-5.2 this forum tends to be, when for me it seems to be working both for mash pH and adding some sodium that I do need as my water appears to be pretty low for Na.
Thanks for the input/comments, AJ.
Your point about why use 5.2 when you can just add phosphoric acid and limit the sodium is well said, and if the goal is to control your water chemistry completely, I will concede that "5.2" isn't the answer. But I guess it just bugs me how anti-5.2 this forum tends to be, when for me it seems to be working both for mash pH and adding some sodium that I do need as my water appears to be pretty low for Na.
Thanks for the input/comments, AJ.
I think some of the outrage is justified. The package says "...will LOCK IN your mash water at a pH of 5.2". (the capital letters are a direct quote). That is simply untrue. It has some, but little buffering capacity at around pH6 - not 5.2 - in water. It may move the mash towards 5.2 under some circumstances but it doesn't lock it in i.e. it doesn't buffer. It also says "will NOT add any flavors to your beer". It does add a lot of sodium.
Most people don't like sodium in their beers (I brew with almost 0 sodium i.e. as low as the RO system can supply).
This may be working for you because you need so little acid and because you have lots of calcium. We'll revisit that when you get a good water report. However for most brewers the money they spend on 5.2 is money wasted. The only reason they are able to sell this stuff is because people believe what it says on the label. That's false advertising and pretty reprehensible IMO. If the product came with an instruction sheet that included some of the caveats that go with this product then we could remove the false advertising charge but if they were honest about its capabilities ("May work sometimes but usually doesn't. Requires doses substantially larger than label states. Adds a lot of sodium) it wouldn't sell.
Most people don't like sodium in their beers (I brew with almost 0 sodium i.e. as low as the RO system can supply).
This may be working for you because you need so little acid and because you have lots of calcium. We'll revisit that when you get a good water report. However for most brewers the money they spend on 5.2 is money wasted. The only reason they are able to sell this stuff is because people believe what it says on the label. That's false advertising and pretty reprehensible IMO. If the product came with an instruction sheet that included some of the caveats that go with this product then we could remove the false advertising charge but if they were honest about its capabilities ("May work sometimes but usually doesn't. Requires doses substantially larger than label states. Adds a lot of sodium) it wouldn't sell.
One of the local breweries by me uses 5.2 Stabilizer for their water treatment. This was a stunning admission from the brewer. I've even talked with the former brewer that started them on that stuff, he's moved on and now uses RO water for his new brewery.
The local tap water at the brewery is very hard and high in alkalinity. Their dark beers are fairly tasty, but the lighter beers are distinctly salty, muddy, and flacid. There is no sharpness in the flavors.
Those results are directly in line with what I understand of the product. In the case of the dark beers, there was little need for water adjustment in the first place due to the acidic grist. The roast flavors tend to overshadow the saltiness.
For the lighter colored beers, the pH is probably not falling into a desirable mashing range and that effects the beer flavor in a number of ways. The hops are rougher, all the flavors are duller, there is a greater potential for pulling in tannins and harsh tasting silicates and polyphenols. And the absense of the roast flavors gives nothing for the saltiness to hide behind.
This product is a lose/lose proposition. Learn to work your brewing water chemistry and you will brew better beer.
The local tap water at the brewery is very hard and high in alkalinity. Their dark beers are fairly tasty, but the lighter beers are distinctly salty, muddy, and flacid. There is no sharpness in the flavors.
Those results are directly in line with what I understand of the product. In the case of the dark beers, there was little need for water adjustment in the first place due to the acidic grist. The roast flavors tend to overshadow the saltiness.
For the lighter colored beers, the pH is probably not falling into a desirable mashing range and that effects the beer flavor in a number of ways. The hops are rougher, all the flavors are duller, there is a greater potential for pulling in tannins and harsh tasting silicates and polyphenols. And the absense of the roast flavors gives nothing for the saltiness to hide behind.
This product is a lose/lose proposition. Learn to work your brewing water chemistry and you will brew better beer.
SC_Ryan
Well-Known Member
I have highly carbonate water and this product never worked for me at all. The reason I despise this product is because I foolishly believed the claims on the package and I wasted about 8 months trying to figure out why my beer wasn't very good. I drove myself crazy trying EVERYTHING I could think of, believing that I had already addressed mash pH. I nearly quit brewing because I wasn't satisfied with my finished product and I couldn't figure out why. Addressing water chemistry was my last ditch effort. Thank god it worked. F*ck 5.2 Stabilizer. That's my stance.
whiskeyjack
Well-Known Member
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brew2enjoy
Well-Known Member
Well I hope I didn't ruin my beer. I brewed an ESB a few weeks ago and misunderstood the guidelines in the first post. I added my baseline of 1 tsb of Calcium cloride and then added another tsb since it calls for that for british beers. So all together I added 2 tsb of Calcium cloride and 1 tsb of gypsum. hopefully it's not too much. I also added 2% adiculated malt.
Well that's a lot of chloride for sure. With, presumably, RO you have no sodium so you may get away with it. I've heard that very high chloride levels make beer taste 'pasty' whatever that means. Let us know how it turn out.
Hermit
fuddle
How much water? The guideline are for 5 gallons. If you are doing a 5 gallon batch you probably used more water than 5 gallons so that will factor into it also.
brew2enjoy
Well-Known Member
it was a 5 gallon batch, I'm at work so I don't have access to my notes, but I think it was around 8 gallons of total water. I treated the first 5 gallons and that was it. the other three I left as-is (50-50 dilution of RO water and my soft tap water). We shall see. I am going to pull a sample tonight for a hydometer reading so I will see what it tastes like so far.
Hi All. I am about to attempt my first all-grain batch next weekend and I got my water report from Ward Labs yesterday. I have two sources of water, softened NH well water and R/O water on the kitchen sink. I can only get about 2.5 gallons from the RO tank before it needs to recharge, which takes about an hour.
The profile on the softened water looks like this:
pH 7.9
Dissoved Solids: 350
Sodium: 113 ppm
Potassium <1
Calcium <1
Magnesium <1
Total Hardness, CaCo3 4
Sulfate SO4-S 56
Chloride 1
Carbonate CO3 <1
Bicarbonate 66
Total Alkalinity 54
Based on the advice in this article, I am thinking about starting with 2/3 RO water and 1/3 softened water.
I am going to be brewing Jamil's Hop Jack, a hoppy Pale Ale kit from MoreBeer. (http://morebeer.com/view_product/18422//Jamils_Hop_Jack_-_All_Grain_Beer_kit_Advanced.
To treat each 5 gallons, I was going to add 2% Saurmalz, 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride to get the British water profile.
Does this make sense? Do you see anything I should be concerned about in the softened water profile above?
Thanks!
Erik
The profile on the softened water looks like this:
pH 7.9
Dissoved Solids: 350
Sodium: 113 ppm
Potassium <1
Calcium <1
Magnesium <1
Total Hardness, CaCo3 4
Sulfate SO4-S 56
Chloride 1
Carbonate CO3 <1
Bicarbonate 66
Total Alkalinity 54
Based on the advice in this article, I am thinking about starting with 2/3 RO water and 1/3 softened water.
I am going to be brewing Jamil's Hop Jack, a hoppy Pale Ale kit from MoreBeer. (http://morebeer.com/view_product/18422//Jamils_Hop_Jack_-_All_Grain_Beer_kit_Advanced.
To treat each 5 gallons, I was going to add 2% Saurmalz, 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride to get the British water profile.
Does this make sense? Do you see anything I should be concerned about in the softened water profile above?
Thanks!
Erik
I thought I'd post this as it might interest the followers of this thread. Here are the results of my pH testing of today's brew. Firstly, here is Vancouver's water profile (essentially RO water):
Calcium - 1.4 ppm
Magnesium - 0.2 ppm
Sodium - 1.8 ppm
Sulphate - 1.0 ppm
Chloride - 1.8 ppm
Bicarbonate - 4.6 ppm
Grist
9.25lb Weyermann Pilsner
0.75lb Briess Carapils
14L strike water (straight vancouver tap water - no salt additions)
I mashed in with just the Pilsner, added the Carapils at 25 minutes and used a 55/65/75 mash schedule.
Mash stage, Time, Temperature, Sample Temp, Sample pH, Brix
Strike water 0m 16C 16C 6.9 0Brix
1st Rest 10m 55C 22C 5.5 n/a
1st Rest 15m 55C 18C 5.5 9Brix
2nd Rest 25m 65C 25C 5.5 13Brix
Carapils addition
2nd Rest 30m 61C 25C 5.4 15Brix
2nd Rest 45m 64C 27C 5.4 16Brix
First runnings 11L @ 20Brix
The pH looks pretty good the entire mash and despite being a pale pale yellow, the pH is lower than the black as night dry stout. The dry stout's (from my previous post a few pages ago https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/index27.html#post3834653) final pH was 4.1. I think its a decent beer but that could just be b/c its St Patricks day.
Calcium - 1.4 ppm
Magnesium - 0.2 ppm
Sodium - 1.8 ppm
Sulphate - 1.0 ppm
Chloride - 1.8 ppm
Bicarbonate - 4.6 ppm
Grist
9.25lb Weyermann Pilsner
0.75lb Briess Carapils
14L strike water (straight vancouver tap water - no salt additions)
I mashed in with just the Pilsner, added the Carapils at 25 minutes and used a 55/65/75 mash schedule.
Mash stage, Time, Temperature, Sample Temp, Sample pH, Brix
Strike water 0m 16C 16C 6.9 0Brix
1st Rest 10m 55C 22C 5.5 n/a
1st Rest 15m 55C 18C 5.5 9Brix
2nd Rest 25m 65C 25C 5.5 13Brix
Carapils addition
2nd Rest 30m 61C 25C 5.4 15Brix
2nd Rest 45m 64C 27C 5.4 16Brix
First runnings 11L @ 20Brix
The pH looks pretty good the entire mash and despite being a pale pale yellow, the pH is lower than the black as night dry stout. The dry stout's (from my previous post a few pages ago https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/index27.html#post3834653) final pH was 4.1. I think its a decent beer but that could just be b/c its St Patricks day.
This Primer has been extremely helpful. My water is terrible (Ca 7.7, Mg N/A, Na 170, Cl 13.5, Sulfates 12, alkalinity 437), and I have not been able to make a pale colored beer without off flavors. I feel much more confident now.
One quick question - what would I do for a Belgian Saison? Would I use maybe a tsp of CaCl and Gypsum per 5 gallons of water treated? Specifically, I'm brewing a 100% Brett C. "Saison" and I'm not sure of what sort of water profile I should use.
One quick question - what would I do for a Belgian Saison? Would I use maybe a tsp of CaCl and Gypsum per 5 gallons of water treated? Specifically, I'm brewing a 100% Brett C. "Saison" and I'm not sure of what sort of water profile I should use.
Huh, Obviously the Na helps balance the bicarbonates in your water, but that water profile seems quite strange. You must have a lot of magnesium or something. I wouldn't use that water for any beers, personally.
Anyways, for a Saison, I'd just use calcium chloride.
Yep. That water profile is quite strange. I remember the first time I showed it to someone and they said "Wow, you have the worst brewing water I have ever seen." For a while, I was killing myself trying to perfect my brewing process, because I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. My very dark beers were turning out well. My pale-colored beers were absolute ****. Then I realized that water does actually play somewhat of a role in beer-making...
I am definitely not using my tap water anymore for brewing, that's for sure. I made my first beer using the baseline method (Roggenbier), and so far it's turning out to be very good. I am excited to try it on a pale beer, like my 100% Brett C. beer I mentioned above.
Thanks for the tip!
swerner
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
I've read the thread twice now and I think I have a handle on the whole primer. I am using 100% R/O because my well water, although treated still has too much ferrous Iron(fe-). My only question I have is about the deviation from the primer. For the British Beers I will be adding the tsp of Gypsum to 5 gallons with the tsp of Calcium Chloride included in the primer. Am I correct in my understanding? This is a great thread AJ. All I want to do is make good beer.
nyer
Well-Known Member
I kegged the IPA I brewed a few weeks ago. I normally use us05 yeast but used some washed us04 this time so it's a little different from the normal recipe. I tasted the hydro sample and immediately noticed that it didn't seem as bitter as normal (a good thing). I tasted it again today and it's obviously not ready to drink since it's only been in the fridge and on gas for 1 day but I think it's going to be very good. There is a slight bubblegum taste probably from the us04 yeast. I think the harsh bitterness caused by my crappy well water is gone. I plan to give it until this weekend and it should be carbed and ready to go, but so far so good. I might have to buy an RO system now.
Yes.
swerner
Well-Known Member
Thanks AJ, you have been a big help. Thanks for your primer.
I'm just starting to get into water chemistry for brewing and how pH affects it. I don't yet understand it but I'll get there lol
My buddy and I are going to have a brew day soon. He has a Blue Moon clone and I am making a Belgian white beer.
If I am starting with 7 gallons of water (mash in, mash out and sparge) would I use a little less than 1.5tsp of calcium chloride?
What about the 2% sauermalz to the grist? Should I be adding this to the grist or just go with the calcium chloride?
Sorry for the newbie questions. I'm trying to read through all these posts...there are just so many to get through lol
My buddy and I are going to have a brew day soon. He has a Blue Moon clone and I am making a Belgian white beer.
If I am starting with 7 gallons of water (mash in, mash out and sparge) would I use a little less than 1.5tsp of calcium chloride?
What about the 2% sauermalz to the grist? Should I be adding this to the grist or just go with the calcium chloride?
Sorry for the newbie questions. I'm trying to read through all these posts...there are just so many to get through lol
Here is another set of water data. This time it is from a gruelling 8 hour Russian Imperial Stout partigyle brew day that pushed the limit of my system. The recipe started as http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ca/2012/02/lets-brew-wednesday-1914-courage.html but when it was scaled up we realized we were short of black malt so it was padded out with some of the 500L bairds chocolate malt. Historic? Probably not perfect but not too far off the mark. Here is the grist (all Baird's)
20lb Maris Otter
5.25lb Brown
1.5lb Black
1lb Chocolate
28L of water and a 60min, 65C single infusion mash. No water treatment, straight up ultra soft, zero carbonate Vancouver tap water. I had intended on adding the 1tsp of CaCl to the mash but it was so thick i didn't think it would dissolve and diffuse so I didn't bother. This was intended to be a traditional 3 gyle partigyle but suffered the worst stuck sparge and ended up having to scoop half the grist out and batch sparging half at time so it turned into the typical homebrewer 1st runnings/second runnings partigyle. Here is the pH data I collected:
Mash stage Time Temperature Sample Temp Sample pH Brix
Strike water 75C 16C 6.9pH 0Brix
1st 15min 64C 23C 5.2pH 17Brix
1st 30min 63C 20C 5.1pH 24Brix
1st runnings 18C 5.2pH 21.5Brix(Pre Boil) 19L@25Brix (Post Boil)
2nd runnings 18C 5.3pH 9Brix(Pre Boil) [email protected](Post Boil)
I'd be really interested in what AJ thinks about the numbers I got. 5.1 pH seems low for a room temp mash reading. If I ever do another classic pale/brown/black porter grist should I consider a chalk addition?
Are these posts interesting? stupid? annoying? Should I put them in a different thread? I put them here because it was this thread that finally motivated me to buy a pH meter and collect some data.
20lb Maris Otter
5.25lb Brown
1.5lb Black
1lb Chocolate
28L of water and a 60min, 65C single infusion mash. No water treatment, straight up ultra soft, zero carbonate Vancouver tap water. I had intended on adding the 1tsp of CaCl to the mash but it was so thick i didn't think it would dissolve and diffuse so I didn't bother. This was intended to be a traditional 3 gyle partigyle but suffered the worst stuck sparge and ended up having to scoop half the grist out and batch sparging half at time so it turned into the typical homebrewer 1st runnings/second runnings partigyle. Here is the pH data I collected:
Mash stage Time Temperature Sample Temp Sample pH Brix
Strike water 75C 16C 6.9pH 0Brix
1st 15min 64C 23C 5.2pH 17Brix
1st 30min 63C 20C 5.1pH 24Brix
1st runnings 18C 5.2pH 21.5Brix(Pre Boil) 19L@25Brix (Post Boil)
2nd runnings 18C 5.3pH 9Brix(Pre Boil) [email protected](Post Boil)
I'd be really interested in what AJ thinks about the numbers I got. 5.1 pH seems low for a room temp mash reading. If I ever do another classic pale/brown/black porter grist should I consider a chalk addition?
Are these posts interesting? stupid? annoying? Should I put them in a different thread? I put them here because it was this thread that finally motivated me to buy a pH meter and collect some data.
Interesting, to me anyway, because they represent data that helps me to see if what I experience in my brewery, upon which I base the advice I give, is typical of what others see when they brew.
Yes, I think the pH readings you are getting are low both for the stout and the Pilsner. There is quite a bit of dark stuff in the stout so what you saw there is not so attention getting as the results with the Pils. While the numbers for the Pils are fine they seem 0.1 - 0.2 low for a mash in which no acid malt is being used. I assume, as you report pH to one decimal place, that this is the resolution of your meter. That makes in hard to really see what is going on. It is rather like trying to manage a weight loss program with a scale that only reads to the nearest 10 pounds. Every reading has a built in error of approximately 0.03 just from quantization 'noise'.
Are you doing the stability check in the pH Cal Sticky?
Yes, I think the pH readings you are getting are low both for the stout and the Pilsner. There is quite a bit of dark stuff in the stout so what you saw there is not so attention getting as the results with the Pils. While the numbers for the Pils are fine they seem 0.1 - 0.2 low for a mash in which no acid malt is being used. I assume, as you report pH to one decimal place, that this is the resolution of your meter. That makes in hard to really see what is going on. It is rather like trying to manage a weight loss program with a scale that only reads to the nearest 10 pounds. Every reading has a built in error of approximately 0.03 just from quantization 'noise'.
Are you doing the stability check in the pH Cal Sticky?
Its a cheap meter with 0.1 resolution. I looked at several models but even some of the 0.01 resolution meters had an error of +/- 0.1, the acceptable mash range is big enough, and having discussion with a few local pro brewers learning that nobody checks pH and none admitted to any sort of water treatment indicating that pH can't be too big a problem with our water...so I figured I'd cheap out and get the basic basic model to start but would upgrade if I found anything weird. I calibrated it at the start of the brew day and rechecked it when I put it away and it was still reading correctly...but I have noticed that my pH data has been trending lower with each brew day so maybe there is something wrong with the meter. My other thought is that there could be day to day variances in the city water supply. Plus different malt probably behaves different to. I'm definitely going to brew the pilsner again so it will be interesting to see if the numbers come out the same. I was really hoping some of the other local homebrewers would take pH meters but so far none of them have.
Just what I was looking for. I am adding a RODI and wanted to make sure my product didnt suffer from lack of essential elements and salts. This answered the question and gave me the solution too. Rock on.
Bob
Bob
Just remember: "The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." You'd have to make a concerted effort to get a meter with a precision of 0.01 to have an accuracy of 0.10. Not saying it can't be done but it would take some work. Most meters with a precision of 0.01 have an accuaracy of at least 0.05 and sometimes 0.02. There are meters available for under $100 that have that kind of specs. What limits their performance seems to be drift and there are ways around that.
You really do need to be able to see below 0.1 pH in order to see if your corrective actions are having effects.
The problem isn't with the water. It is with matching the water to the grist. Nonetheless what you say is so. Many pro's haven't a clue as to how to manage mash pH and some even have this notion of water as terroir and resist the thought of water treatment to improve their beers. You won't find this among the Chico Brewing and Gordon Biersch class but I often think that home brewers know more about the effects of water than pro's. We certainly worry about it more than they do.
My hope was that I would find that no corrective action needs to be done. I'm not trying to develop a formula for pH vs grist vs water chem, I just want to know if I'm in an acceptable range. 0.1 precision with +/-0.1 accuracy should be good enough to see if I'm in range, no? My hope (and theory) is that it takes an extreme brew to pull the pH out of range with unadjusted Vancouver water. Is 0.1, +/-0.1 not sufficient to test this?
As most pro brewers are brewing the same handful of recipes day after day, it seems like the perfect venue for experimentation and mastering the water. As a homebrewer, I have never brewed the same thing twice (I've brewed a few pilsners with near identical grists but always changed up something be it maltster, hopping schedule, or yeast).
I nerd out on this stuff but most homebrewers I've talked to here who adjust water limit it recreating the BS classic city water profiles in How To Brew. I've seen you post before about how they are chemically impossible, http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ca/ has posts about 18th and 19th century water treatments that also expose the London and Edinburgh water profiles as a fantasy (or at least irrelevant because nobody brewed without precipitating out carbonate or adding gypsum). As How To Brew is several years old and has now had extensive "peer review", I'm sure a lot of what was written on water Palmer no longer believes. I was interested in reading his upcoming water book but it sounds now like it is more than a year off.
Here is some data from today's brew. An English Ordinary Bitter inspired by this recipe http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...r-kits/broken-spear-bitter-all-grain-kit.html
6.25# TF Maris Otter
0.25# Baird's Crystal 75
0.125# Baird's Black
I mashed in only the MO with 11L of straight 0 carbonate Vancouver tap water. I added .5tsp of CaCl after the 25min sample and the dark grains after the 30min sample.
Mash stage Time Temperature Sample Temp Sample pH Brix
Strike Water 11L 75C 16C 7pH 0Brix
1st 5min 65C 18C 5.8pH 6.5Brix
1st 25min 64.5C 25C 5.7pH 7Brix
CaCl Addition
1st 30min 61C 28C 5.6pH 14Brix
Crystal+Black Malt Addition
1st 45min 64C 25C 5.5pH 15Brix
1st 55min 62C 28C 5.5pH 18Brix
After sparge 27L 25C 5.6pH 8Brix
I was in for a more relaxing brew day than last weeks twin turkey burner partigyle brew so this was a BIAG batch, but I didn't mash full volume. I mashed a reasonable grain:water and heated the rest of the water to mashout in my second kettle and added it at 60min before removing the bag.
6.25# TF Maris Otter
0.25# Baird's Crystal 75
0.125# Baird's Black
I mashed in only the MO with 11L of straight 0 carbonate Vancouver tap water. I added .5tsp of CaCl after the 25min sample and the dark grains after the 30min sample.
Mash stage Time Temperature Sample Temp Sample pH Brix
Strike Water 11L 75C 16C 7pH 0Brix
1st 5min 65C 18C 5.8pH 6.5Brix
1st 25min 64.5C 25C 5.7pH 7Brix
CaCl Addition
1st 30min 61C 28C 5.6pH 14Brix
Crystal+Black Malt Addition
1st 45min 64C 25C 5.5pH 15Brix
1st 55min 62C 28C 5.5pH 18Brix
After sparge 27L 25C 5.6pH 8Brix
I was in for a more relaxing brew day than last weeks twin turkey burner partigyle brew so this was a BIAG batch, but I didn't mash full volume. I mashed a reasonable grain:water and heated the rest of the water to mashout in my second kettle and added it at 60min before removing the bag.
If I was going to use phosphoric acid how much would I use instead of acid malt?
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Howdy AJ,
Here's my water report from Ward's. I haven't plugged it into any formulas yet, but will be doing so soon.
pH 7.7
TDS 221
Conductivity 0.37
Cations/Anions 4.1/3.9
Sodium 7
Potassium 1
Calcium 54
Magnesium 12
Total hardness, CaCO3 185
Nitrate 0.1
Sulfate 5
Chloride 3
Carbonate, C03 <1
Bicarbonate HCO3 216
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 177
Total Phosphorous 0.66
Total Iron 0.02
For comparison, here's what the water company said:
Sodium 14
Calcium 57
Magnesium 16
Sulfate 5
Chloride 3
I'm brewing a DIPA tomorrow and would like to work on the water for it. From what I gather, I need hard water that is high in hardness and low in alkalinity, especially to get the type of DIPA I'm going for (a KRBC Citra inspired beer). I hear the Phoenix water in general isn't too great to brew with and usually use a combo of it and RO water, or RO water and drinking water from the store. I don't have the water reports on any of it, so it seems like just using RO and adjusting might be my best way to do it. I have calcium chloride and gypsum on hand and already purchased 5 gallons of RO water. Can anyone help me figure out the best way to treat the water?
Reasonable level of agreement between the two.
As to the hypothesis in #330 that 5.2 might be giving the appearance of working: You have 2.7 meq/L Ca. If each reacted fully with monobasic phosphate to precipitate apatite that would result in the production of 2.7*0.7 = 1.9 mEq/L of protons which is enough to neutralize akalinity of 95 ppm as CaCO3. You have 177 so clearly this amount of calcium isn't enough. To neutralize 177 requires about 3.5 mEq/L of acid and then the malt is going to require more to move it from pH 5.7 to 5.4 - approximately an equal amount. Low pH with this water, 5.2 and a typical grist remains a mystery.
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