So I called Briess today...

to ask a pretty straightforward question. Their product sheets for the DME and LME here:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Malt_Extracts.htm#BavarianWheat

both list the same color (3.0 Lovibond). It seems all their products list the same color for both LME and DME. I was curious to know if that is accurate. But, for example, if I check in Beersmith using the Briess database the difference is 4 SRM for the LME and 8 SRM for the DME. The first lady that answered didn't seem too happy that a lone homebrewer customer was calling. I guess their phone lines are really only meant for business customers.

Anyhow, she transfered me to a lady that handles sales and didn't know any technical info. I didn't want to take up her time so I thanked her for her assistance and hung up.

Can anyone set the record straight on this? Is the Briess DME really 8 SRM while the LME is 4? I know with every other extract I look at it seems the opposite - the DME is lighter in color than the LME. Just curious to sort this out as I prefer to use DME if I can but often according to Beersmith that can push the color outside of the style guidelines.


Rev.

There's two things here:

First, why does Briess report equivalent numbers for DME and LME when most people seem to think that LME tends to be darker? A lot of the LME darkening has to do with aging and (particularly) improper storage. It doesn't really surprise me that they leave the plant with the same color but are usually different when they get used.

Second, why does beersmith think wheat DME should be so much darker than LME? I suspect Beersmith is just wrong.

I've used the wheat dme before and it was a lot darker than I expected. 8 SRM doesn't sound far off to me; I would actually expect a somewhat higher number. I haven't used the LME, so I can't comment on that.

Perhaps there is confusion with LME and DME for Light Malt Extract and Dark Malt Extract instead of Dry Malt Extract and Liquid Malt Extract?

IrregularPulse said:

Perhaps there is confusion with LME and DME for Light Malt Extract and Dark Malt Extract instead of Dry Malt Extract and Liquid Malt Extract?

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Ding, ding, ding, ding!

That was my guess anyway.

You're confusing degrees Lovibond with SRM. They're not the same thing. The degrees Lovibpnd listed (3) refers to the color extracted from the grains in the mashing process. They use the same grain for both kinds of extract, so both are 3 degrees Lovibond. SRM refers to the color imparted to your beer. Because of differences between how liquid and dry extracts behave in the boil, you're going to get differences in the amount of coloration parted. That's why there's two different SRMs.

Egghead said:

You're confusing degrees Lovibond with SRM. They're not the same thing.

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I'm not confusing the two, I know they are different, but I don't know the SRM equivalent to 3 Lovibond. They are just two different systems of color measurement. SRM isn't an after boil measurement and Lovibond a mashing color measurement as you seem to imply. It does make sense though how Briess did their measurements so thanks for pointing that out.


Rev.

IrregularPulse said:

Perhaps there is confusion with LME and DME for Light Malt Extract and Dark Malt Extract instead of Dry Malt Extract and Liquid Malt Extract?

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Confusion where? LME in this instance is Liquid Malt Extract and the listing in the Briess database in Beersmith is correctly labeled "LME Wheat Bavarian (Briess)"


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

I'm not confusing the two, I know they are different, but I don't know the SRM equivalent to 3 Lovibond. They are just two different systems of color measurement. SRM isn't an after boil measurement and Lovibond a mashing color measurement as you seem to imply. It does make sense though how Briess did their measurements so thanks for pointing that out.


Rev.

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I don't think egghead is questioning that SRM and Lovibond are both color measurements. He saying that in beersmith the SRM is telling you the color of your finished beer. The Lovibond measurement is telling you the color extracted from the grains, the same way 40L designates a crystal malt color. So, if the LME and DME are extracted from the same grain, the Lovibond will be the same. The SRM of you finished beer will be different if you add the same amount of each, since the concentration of sugars in the DME is higher.

Nah, I know but the amount of sugars and such aren't so far apart that one should be 4 SRM and the other 8 I would think. Still mainly curious to know why wheat is the on ly extract coming out darker for the DME, even when calculating for the difference. Like why is 4lbs DME darker than 5lbs LME in Beersmith.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

Nah, I know but the amount of sugars and such aren't so far apart that one should be 4 SRM and the other 8 I would think. Still mainly curious to know why wheat is the on ly extract coming out darker for the DME, even when calculating for the difference. Like why is 4lbs DME darker than 5lbs LME in Beersmith.

Rev.

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Try both and contrast and compare.

My dme wheats have more orange hue than my lme ones, so i believe.

doctorRobert said:

Try both and contrast and compare.

My dme wheats have more orange hue than my lme ones, so i believe.

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Yeah I may have to eventually. I'm definitely not doubting it. So far everything I've made and plugged into Beersmith has come out 99% spot on - color, OG and FG gravity, etc. I'm just the kind of person that wants a technical explanation as to why, and in this case it's odd because wheat is the only extract where the DME is listing as darker than the LME. I'm making 10 gallons of Belgian Wit soon (two 5 gallon batches and using the two different Wyeast strains) and to keep the SRM within the guidelines I have to use LME. I mean, I'm not submitting these to competitions or anything so it really doesn't matter, just one of those things that got me asking questions.


Rev.

Is the grain bill the same? I think it is.