Spa Panel Wiring for Dummies

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P-J,

YOU ARE THE MAN! I was at work today when I was posting. When I got home, I decided to reconnect that ground, just to see what happened. And just like that, it worked perfectly! No breaker trip. I can only imagine what went wrong the first time. Probably a loose connection or something. Anyway, thank you for your help! My setup is arriving tomorrow. Now. Any suggestions on how to cut a 6" hole through my house to install a vent and not tick off my wife at the same time?
 
2Kegger said:
P-J,

YOU ARE THE MAN! I was at work today when I was posting. When I got home, I decided to reconnect that ground, just to see what happened. And just like that, it worked perfectly! No breaker trip. I can only imagine what went wrong the first time. Probably a loose connection or something. Anyway, thank you for your help! My setup is arriving tomorrow. Now. Any suggestions on how to cut a 6" hole through my house to install a vent and not tick off my wife at the same time?
Click to expand...
It pleases me that you got it working. Congrats!

Re: the vent. You might want to call a pro to have that done for you and/or you could do a Google search to get some ideas.
 
2Kegger said:
P-J,

YOU ARE THE MAN! I was at work today when I was posting. When I got home, I decided to reconnect that ground, just to see what happened. And just like that, it worked perfectly! No breaker trip. I can only imagine what went wrong the first time. Probably a loose connection or something. Anyway, thank you for your help! My setup is arriving tomorrow. Now. Any suggestions on how to cut a 6" hole through my house to install a vent and not tick off my wife at the same time?
Click to expand...

Pros use a bit for that. Check harbor freight for the cheapest option. Before you drill make sure there's nothing on the other side.
 
Quick question if I'm going from a 3 prong dryer outlet into the spa panel and then out to controller with 4 wire will I be able to use 120 in the controller
 
bgural23 said:
Quick question if I'm going from a 3 prong dryer outlet into the spa panel and then out to controller with 4 wire will I be able to use 120 in the controller
Click to expand...

Yes you can and do it in kosher fashion. Simply obtain a 240V to 120 V stepdown transformer. Run ø-G–ø to your panel and connect the ground to your conductive parts (boxes, stands, conduits, kettles...). Now connect the 240V primary between the two phases and, the secondary to your 120V circuit. The secondary is a 'separately derived system' (no conductor, phase or neutral, is connected to any conductor in the main system) and, therefore, the neutral (one side of the secondary) can be connected to the earth conductor at your box. As you are probably only going to run a pump or two, a controller and some pilot lights you shouldn't need a very large transformer. You could also use transformer with a 240V center tapped transformer and have a separately derived 4 wire (120 - 0 - 120) system if you wanted.
 
I plan on running off of the trusty dryer outlet as we'll. I bought about 30' of 10/3 sjoow 300v wire to plug to said dryer outlet; will run that to a spa panel. Am I able to use the same wire to run from the spa direct to the element? I am not using a control panel yet, and with current setup, I plan to only use one powered kettle, until I build the control panel. Can anyone offer me a little insight. I am no electrician and don't want to get electrocuted ,or burn the house down. Any info would be appreciated .
 
You don't say what amperage you expect to draw, but it should work for all but the most extreme of setups (given that you don't have a control panel).
 
Did some thinking and decide to go ahead and build the control panel. It will be basic at first but I plan to build it up well.
I was getting anxious, and wanted to try it out wired just to the spa panel.
so far the set up is a 10 GAL HLT w/5500w element
10 gal cooler MT/LT
15.5 gal (keg) BK w/ 5500w element
I think each element, running alone, is about 23 amps? I think. I plan to only run one at a time
 
Hey PJ quick question if you can respond I'm looking at your diagram and getting a little confused at the color coordination with the wires I'm using 10/3 wire from 3 prong dryer outlet 30 amp and want to use the same set up. Can you explain which color is ground and which colors are hot I'm dealing with white green and black. And the four wire coming off the GFCI, can u can you explain them individually
 
skeletonkrew said:
Hey PJ quick question if you can respond I'm looking at your diagram and getting a little confused at the color coordination with the wires I'm using 10/3 wire from 3 prong dryer outlet 30 amp and want to use the same set up. Can you explain which color is ground and which colors are hot I'm dealing with white green and black. And the four wire coming off the GFCI, can u can you explain them individually
Click to expand...
The 3 wire dryer outlet is 240V and Neutral at the outlet. The plug and cable you use to connect to that dryer outlet can be a 4 wire cable (red, black, white and ground and then you would use the red, black & white to make your connections in the spa panel.

I hope this makes sense and helps you.

P-J
 
No. There is no ground in an old, grandfathered dryer connection therefore you should not have any 120V circuits connected to it unless a transformer is used as described in #86. You can still have small 120V loads but you are relying for earth protection on the grandfathered exception to the code which was removed, presumably, because there were too many reported incidents where it was shown to be inadequate/unsafe. If you use a 4 wire cable you don't connect the green (earth wire). What you must not do is connect the white wire to the ground (green or bare copper) wire at either end though a statement to that effect often triggers lengthy "Mac is better than PC" type dialogues in this forum either in the cable or in anything you connect it to. For this reason it is probably better not to use a 4 wire cable so that there can be no confusion as to how it is connected.

I've edited this a whole bunch already because I started typing before I was fully awake but another thought comes to me. If the box in which the dryer outlet is properly grounded (even though the grounding conductor was not wired to the dryer) then you have a valid ground at the box and that can be wired to something connected to that circuit. You would connect the green/bare wire in the cable to the box ground. A validly bonded box would be wired through metallic conduit or armored cable back to the panel. You would want to verify that there is a low impedance path through the grounding means back to the panel. To do this trip the breaker and measure the resistance between the neutral (white wire) and the hypothesized ground (box or conduit). If it's less than 2 Ω it's good.
 
I've been thinking further since this morning: "This guy's going to take HHN, wire H & H to a heater and N to his kettles through a GFCI in a sub panel, get a G - kettle fault which the GFCI won't pick up and have the kettle above ground while standing on a wet floor." This is not a good scenario. With a little thought I came up with a safe, code compliant work around. Here's what you could do if you can't find/run an effective connection to the building ground at the old outlet:

1) Put a piece of green tape on the white wire at the old dryer outlet. You have just converted the neutral to a protective ground. To be completely kosher you should also put a piece of green tape on the end in the main panel and move it from the neutral bar to the ground bar but as these are tied together at the box it wouldn't make much difference. At least put the tape on it in the panel so anyone looking in there in the future will know it is a protective ground.
2)Remove the breaker in the main panel and replace it with a GFCI. You won't be connecting anything to the neutral terminal on the breaker.
3)Wire your outlets/plugs/subpanel/control box as a 220 only box. Use 220V controllers, coils, relays etc or derive 120 from a transformer.
4)Connect the ground lug(s) on the heater(s) to the new ground wire.

The GFCI will pick up a ground fault (even if it is only slight leakage) and as the kettle is now grounded a hot to kettle fault would be detected as would any other ground fault.
 
If my breaker panel for my oven is 30A, doesn't that mean I only need a 30A spa panel? So that the spa panel would trip at the same time the breaker panel would have?
 
stever1000 said:
If my breaker panel for my oven is 30A, doesn't that mean I only need a 30A spa panel? So that the spa panel would trip at the same time the breaker panel would have?
Click to expand...

the spa panel is to provide gfci protection. your existing 30 amp breaker would serve the spa panel, which in turn would serve the existing oven receptacle. 30 amp is fine but not a common size. a 50 amp spa panel is more common. it is okay if it is rated greater than 30 amp, it is used only for its gfci features.
 
The dryer outlet I would like to use has two hots and a ground. Is it possible to use this outlet to wire a spa panel since I don't have a neutral wire?
 
itsnotrequired said:
the spa panel is to provide gfci protection. your existing 30 amp breaker would serve the spa panel, which in turn would serve the existing oven receptacle. 30 amp is fine but not a common size. a 50 amp spa panel is more common. it is okay if it is rated greater than 30 amp, it is used only for its gfci features.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense
 
I skimmed the thread at lunch and forgive me if it was asked and i missed it.

In the picture p-j posted it shows 30amp (standard dryer plug) into a 50amp spa breaker. Wouldn't that mean you have a 30amp breaker at the main service panel, meaning a smaller wire running through the house. Are people running just a 30amp control panel, or are you able to run a 50amp for back to back brews? I thought you would have to have a 50amp main breaker and the proper gauge wire to properly run the 50amp brewery panel. If you ran the 50amp brewery wouldn't you overload the wires in the house leading to the dryer and pop the main 30 amp breaker when you turned on both elements?
 
lupulinaddict said:
I skimmed the thread at lunch and forgive me if it was asked and i missed it.

In the picture p-j posted it shows 30amp (standard dryer plug) into a 50amp spa breaker. Wouldn't that mean you have a 30amp breaker at the main service panel, meaning a smaller wire running through the house. Are people running just a 30amp control panel, or are you able to run a 50amp for back to back brews? I thought you would have to have a 50amp main breaker and the proper gauge wire to properly run the 50amp brewery panel. If you ran the 50amp brewery wouldn't you overload the wires in the house leading to the dryer and pop the main 30 amp breaker when you turned on both elements?
Click to expand...

Correct. The 50A breaker is only there for GFCI protection. You can only draw up to 30A because of the main-panel breaker, and therefore only have to wire with 10ga.
 
I need some help with my spa panel...trying to determine if I have a bad breaker or faulty wiring somewhere. The panel was bought from someone local and they said it was unused but who knows.

I added a new 30 amp double pole breaker to my main box and have 4 wires running into the spa panel. The ground goes directly to the ground bar, neutral to neutral bar, and both hots to the corresponding hot posts. The 2 hots from the breaker go to the outlet as well as the neutral and ground. I have tested the supply from the main breaker and know its wired correctly and hot. I can't get power to the outlet. I don't think the breaker is functioning correctly. I can switch it all the off then all the way on but it easily goes to the middle position. When the breaker is switched on, I still get no power to the outputs. Here is the picture of how its currently wired. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 
do you have anything plugged into the receptacle? when you turn the gfci breaker on, does it trip immediately or not at all? i see the curly neutral connected to the neutral bar, i assume the other end is connected to the breaker? i can't tell from the photo.
 
itsnotrequired said:
do you have anything plugged into the receptacle? when you turn the gfci breaker on, does it trip immediately or not at all? i see the curly neutral connected to the neutral bar, i assume the other end is connected to the breaker? i can't tell from the photo.
Click to expand...

I have tried with and without anything plugged into the receptacle. Even without anything plugged in, the receptacle has no power. The neutral curly wire goes to the breaker, it is just directly behind the other wire.
 
if the gfci breaker is on and there is voltage at the line-side but nothing on the load-side, it sounds like a bad breaker. if you press the test button with the breaker in the on position, does it trip?
 
You have wired it according to this image?
power-panel-5a.jpg
 
It does seem that the breaker may be bad. Take it out of the box (disconnect all wires). Now move the toggles to off and then to on. They should firmly latch in the on position and stay there. If they do not then there is an internal mechanical problem as there is nothing thermal, magnetic or leakage which can trip the breaker when it is disconnected. If the toggles stay latched in the on position you can check for continuity (ohm meter or continuity checker) between the snaps which grab the rails on the underside of the breaker and the two hots output lugs. If there is no such continuity then there is obviously an electrical problem. Obviously, if you move the toggles to off the continuity between the rails and the output lugs should be interrupted for the two phases. There should be continuity between the white pigtail and the neutral lug regardless of toggle position.
 
In the process of wiring up my panel w the feed from my main panel. Referring to the pic in 101 above, does the white neutral wire go on the bar next to the coiled white wire, or under the large screw lug immediately behind and under the bar?

Kevin
 
kmmuellr said:
In the process of wiring up my panel w the feed from my main panel. Referring to the pic in 101 above, does the white neutral wire go on the bar next to the coiled white wire, or under the large screw lug immediately behind and under the bar?

Kevin
Click to expand...

the bar and larger screw lugs should be connected together and isolated from the panel enclosure (unlike the ground bar, which touches the panel enclosure). the larger lugs are there to terminate larger conductors that do not fit under the terminals in the bar.
 
ajdelange said:
It does seem that the breaker may be bad. Take it out of the box (disconnect all wires). Now move the toggles to off and then to on. They should firmly latch in the on position and stay there. If they do not then there is an internal mechanical problem as there is nothing thermal, magnetic or leakage which can trip the breaker when it is disconnected. If the toggles stay latched in the on position you can check for continuity (ohm meter or continuity checker) between the snaps which grab the rails on the underside of the breaker and the two hots output lugs. If there is no such continuity then there is obviously an electrical problem. Obviously, if you move the toggles to off the continuity between the rails and the output lugs should be interrupted for the two phases. There should be continuity between the white pigtail and the neutral lug regardless of toggle position.
Click to expand...

The continuity test checks out fine. I've got a new breaker coming in the mail so I guess I'll try that and see what happens
 
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but this is the most thorough source of info on this topic on these forums. I just picked up a Square D 50A Spa Panel, but there really isn't much room to mount the receptacle INSIDE the spa panel. Can anyone with recent experience with a different spa panel pass on the model number? The one that PJ linked early on in this thread doesn't appear to be available anymore (GE).
 
Is that the Square D HOM250SPA? It looks like yours is slightly different than mine. We moved the ground bus to the same spot yours is in, but the breaker itself sits a bit more up and left.

Also, my 14-30R is not a twist locking type, but it appears to be much deeper than yours. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009W3A9/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

Did you have to drill anything into that spa panel, or is that just the standard knockout?
 
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Any suggestions on what to cut a circular hole with? Would a jigsaw work? I got my hands on a Spa Panel that will accommodate the receptacle inside of it (so I don't have to have an external gang box with it mounted), but there isn't a knockout on the side like this.
 
There was a photo somewhere on these forums of a spa panel's wiring but it had labels laid overtop it. I can't seem to find that anymore. Anyone know what I am talking about? It's similar to the pics in this thread, but just had text on top clearly labeling what wires went where.
 

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