Can an extract taste like a commercial brew?

I've brewed 8-9 extract batches this year. All good. None great. They all have a sweet undertone to them. They aren't finishing as dry as a typical commercial beer tastes.

I'm hitting my numbers OG/FG. I'm ususally at least 2 weeks in primary plus 1-2 weeks in secondary. I'm using tap water - sometimes straight, sometimes filtered from refrigerator. My extract is fresh.

Searching the threads, seems like the things to improve are:

1. temp control
2. full boils
3. Late extract addition

With my last 3 batches, I've used the swap cooler method and late extract addition, but I still have the same sweet undertone.

I'm upgrading equipment over Christmas to go full boil in hopes that might help.

Can anyone tell me if their extract brews actually taste so good that you could confuse it for a commercial beer? Or I am getting about the best I can out of an extract process?

I've made extract clones that could not be distinguished from the original. It is tougher when trying to make clones of drier beers, since you can't control the profile of the extract. In those cases, substituting some dextrose for extract will dry the final product out.

I've done head to head taste test comparisons of the extract/grains version of Yooper's dead guy clone with Rogue's, and consistently the homebrew version has been picked as the better tasting of the two, and thought to be the commercial version. I think it's simply that the homebrew version tastes "fresher" to people and therefore they prefer it.

My very simple extract w/grain pseudo clone of Bell's Amber Ale tastes spot on with the original, the only difference is the SRM's. Mine is slightly darker than the original but the taste is the same.

I've had a friends extract based porter that didn't taste like an extract beer.

I myself could never get rid of that 'twang' so I go all grain. but I'd say its doable in many situations if you're willing to keep trying.

so any chance the full boil will help here? I've read a lot of threads that talk about doing full boils, but I still don't quite understand what actual benefit you will get.

One big plus would be to step up to partial mash. It's really not much harder than an all-extract brew and you'll notice a great increase of the quality of your beer and a much broader spectrum of beers you can make.

Some extracts have a lot of unfermentables in them that will keep you from being able to get the FG down to where you want. Partial mashing lets you use less extract and get a portion of your wort from grains instead.

I have yet to experience this extract twang that I've heard so much about. The short answer is yes, you can.

I'm jealous then...cause I just can't figure it out.

You can make a perfectly good beer with extract that could be mistaken for a commercial brew.

Before this turns into an extract V. AG debate, I would add that it is easier to get a good brew with AG.

I'm not saying AG is better than extract. It's just easier to achieve your goals due to the variety of different methods you can employ.

well I'm gonna try the full boil thing. and maybe I'll try using distilled water too. After I add those techniques into the mix, I'm not sure what else to try.

It seems a long time ago now since I did my first full boil extract (Although it wasn't so long ago at all)

Doing the full boil though was by a long way the biggest improvement i ever made to an extract brew. You should definitely do one!

I have not experienced the extract twang yet either and it makes me wonder what type of water you are using. It is possible that your water is adding too many extra minerals to your beer that is giving you the off taste. With the quality of beer that I have been brewing so far I've been wondering if it is worth it for me to move to AG just because this is cheaper and easier.

I am convinced that the "twang" in my dark beers (pale extract only, dark grains) was due to the PH.

BYO's article on sodium bi-carbonate fixed that.

I will put my extract brews up against ANYONE!

alexavery said:

well I'm gonna try the full boil thing. and maybe I'll try using distilled water too. After I add those techniques into the mix, I'm not sure what else to try.

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This is a good thing to try. It's entirely possible that the reason your beers taste too sweet (to you) is not because of the extract, but because you're getting low hops utilization. If that's happening, your beers could taste sweeter simply because you're not getting enough bitterness out of your hops to balance.

By going to a full-boil, you will definitely improve your hops utilization, to the point that you'll actually need to do some calculations (or use brew software) to figure out how to adjust your hops schedule.

What size is your current boil?

I'll be another to say, Extract beer can be as good as AG/ commerical. As long as you control everything else. Using fresh extract is no different than mashing yourself. You just have a concentrated version of Mash Runnings.

dogbar I'm doing 3.3 gallon boils now. I have been using beersmith to help calculate IBUs. I don't think I'm under-hopping...but I will revisit that with the next batch.

Yeah, and if you're doing it on a stove top, you might not be getting all that vigorous a boil, which can also limit the utilization.

Anyway, that would be my guess, and since you're going to do a full-boil next, you'll be able to rule it in or out.

Other things to consider if that doesn't fix it:

1) Yeast -- Are you making a variety of styles with a variety of yeasts? If so, probably not the issue.
2) Extract fermentability -- Some brands aren't as fermentable as others. You can try switching up kinds, dry/liquid, etc. Also, if you just want to dry out the beer, swap out a pound of extract for a pound(ish) of sugar. If it really is an extract problem, you can dry it out that way.

You might already know and have tried these things. Just throwing out ideas that may help. Good luck.

Just to put my $0.02 in, you might want to try different kinds of extract. If you're using dry, try liquid, or if you're using liquid from one LHBS, try another store's extract. I had a number of beers that had the slightly nasty tang even though I was doing PM, hitting my numbers, controlling fermentation temps, etc. I then started going to another LHBS to get my extract and the twang went away. I also did a few beers with dry extract and got no twang.

I do AG now, but I have to agree with everyone else: in the hands of a good brewer extract brews can be as great as, if not better than, any beer on the market

The best thing is to use freshest extract you can.

Also, use distilled or RO water, because the extract already have minerals from the extraction process.

Full Boils.

Late Extract Additions.

Fermentation Temperature control (keep temps in fermenter at the lower end, or just below, the yeasts optimum range. They will add a few degrees during the initial fermentation).

Pitch proper amount of yeast. Build a starter for liquid yeast. Double pitch dry.

I think the second most important variable in making a dry finished beer is out of your control with extracts. When mashing...keeping the temperature in the lower part of the saccrification range creates more fermentable sugars. In the higher portion...less fermentable sugars. So your beer will have less residual sugars in the lower half of the spectrum. This has already been relegated to the factory that makes the extract. It's easy to add stuff to add body ie...Lactose...but hard to go the other way, you can...add corn sugar...but the beer will lose flavor.

The first most important thing is the yeast. I think the Pilsner Lager yeasts are going to give you that flavor...but you'll need to ferment in their demanding temperature range..and you'll need to build a healthy yeast starter to get them going good. Longer fermentation and conditioning times.

If you have homebrew clubs in your area...take some to a meeting. Many of them have members who are Judges...and may be able to pick out a particular flavor flaw...and help you remedy this.

You have to remember too...that most of your dry, light, lagers that you consume...have all been filtered. If you keg...it will be easy to filter your beer by pressure transfering the beer from one keg into another through a filter.

Ive heard (and do) if you use distilled water you want to add gypsum or somthing that will add the minerals back to the water ...correct me if im wrong

Im also getting a twang. hopefully my lbhs will taste mine and see if he can put his finger on it. it's on all brews, but we haven't done late extract until yesterday and 2 gallon boils.

we did do a couple half batches, and that twang is still there, but not as prominent. I'm thinking it does have something to do with full boils personally.

iparks81 said:

Ive heard (and do) if you use distilled water you want to add gypsum or somthing that will add the minerals back to the water ...correct me if im wrong

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With extract beers, you don't need to add anything to the water when you dissolve the extract into the water, you are in a sense getting the instant water profile of the city where the extracted was mashed.

That's why folks often (though not everyone) uses distilled in their extract batches because distilled has no water profile so all you will get in your beer is the "correct" profile for that beer. So if you are using distilled, you are workign with a neutral pallet.

(Always reminds me of the joke "instant water....Just add water."

You add gypsum and such to water in All Grain batches to aid in extraction of the sugars from the grain, but in extract batches you are not doing any mashes.


You don't need anythig in your extract batches, but water.

Revvy said:

With extract beers, you don't need to add anything to the water when you dissolve the extract into the water, you are in a sense getting the instant water profile of the city where the extracted was mashed.

That's why folks often (though not everyone) uses distilled in their extract batches because distilled has no water profile so all you will get in your beer is the "correct" profile for that beer. So if you are using distilled, you are workign with a neutral pallet.

(Always reminds me of the joke "instant water....Just add water."

You add gypsum and such to water in All Grain batches to aid in extraction of the sugars from the grain, but in extract batches you are not doing any mashes.


You don't need anythig in your extract batches, but water.

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Huh? Surely, if you are using the same malt extract for two different styles of beer from different parts of the globe, then the water profile you use to extend the extract should reflect the water profile of the origin of the style?

Surely extracts are not so region-specific as to be able to produce the profile for whatever region of the world you are brewing for?

Revvy said:

With extract beers, you don't need to add anything to the water when you dissolve the extract into the water, you are in a sense getting the instant water profile of the city where the extracted was mashed.



You don't need anythig in your extract batches, but water.

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I get you, the extract already has the minerals from the manufacturer.

SODIUM BICARBONATE....I swear by it in anything darker than a pale ale.

I am not a chemist, but it takes out the twang.

cheezydemon3 said:

I will put my extract brews up against ANYONE!

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do they do well in competition?

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Huh? Surely, if you are using the same malt extract for two different styles of beer from different parts of the globe, then the water profile you use to extend the extract should reflect the water profile of the origin of the style?

Surely extracts are not so region-specific as to be able to produce the profile for whatever region of the world you are brewing for?

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The extracts have all the minerals of the original mash. If you do not use distilled water you will be adding more minerals to a beer that is already mineral laden. Unless an extract maker lists the mineral content you will not know how much of which mineral will give you what you want.

You could experiment and try making beer from the same extract batch and add different minerals and see what happens to the beer but, short of that there is no way to know what is already in the beer.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Huh? Surely, if you are using the same malt extract for two different styles of beer from different parts of the globe, then the water profile you use to extend the extract should reflect the water profile of the origin of the style?

Surely extracts are not so region-specific as to be able to produce the profile for whatever region of the world you are brewing for?

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This is one problem with using extracts, you don't know what is in it. But I agree with this point 100%.

Remember, water chemistry is important for TWO things: 1) mash pH AND 2) flavor profile. For AG you care about both but in extract you only care about the second. But at the same time it should be noted that with extract you can and should care about it - it is not true that just because you are using extract you do not need to care about your water chemistry.

I recently used light DME for both an IPA and a Stout, but obviously those two beers require a completely different flavor profile. So you cannot say that the mineral profile comes strictly from the extract. Although, that would awesome if extract was sold not only by color but also by water profile... (e.g. light DME bitter, light dme malty, extra light dme balanced, etc.)

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Huh? Surely, if you are using the same malt extract for two different styles of beer from different parts of the globe, then the water profile you use to extend the extract should reflect the water profile of the origin of the style?

Surely extracts are not so region-specific as to be able to produce the profile for whatever region of the world you are brewing for?

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I'll go back to Palmer...I know elsewhere he talks in grweat detail about the water profile coming from the water used by the maltzer to make the extract, and when we use RO we then get their water profile...but until I find the direct I'll back up my statement with something else he said.

Water is very important to beer. After all, beer is mostly water. Some waters are famous for brewing: the soft water of Pilsen, the hard water of Burton, Midlands, and pure Rocky Mtn. spring water. Each of these waters contributed to the production of a unique tasting beer. But what about your water? Can it make a good beer? When using malt extract, the answer is almost always "Yes". If you are brewing with grain, the answer can vary from "Sometimes" to "Absolutely".

The reason for the difference between the brewing methods is that the minerals in the water can affect the starch conversion of the mash, but once the sugars have been produced, the affect of water chemistry on the flavor of the beer is greatly reduced. When brewing with malt extract, if the water tastes good to begin with, the beer should taste good.

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More from Palmer.

Chapter 4 - Water for Extract Brewing
4.2 Water Chemistry Adjustment for Extract Brewing

Some brewing books advocate the addition of brewing salts to the brewpot to imitate the water of a famous brewing region, like the Burton region of Britain. While some salts can be added to extract-based brews to improve the flavor profile, salts are more properly used to adjust the pH of the mash for all-grain brewing. Water chemistry is fairly complex and adding salts is usually not necessary for extract brewing. Most municipal water is fine for brewing with extract and does not need adjustment. So, if you are brewing from an extract recipe that calls for the addition of gypsum or Burton salts, do not add it. The proper amount of a salt to add to your water depends on the mineral amounts already present and the brewer who published the recipe probably had entirely different water than you do. You may end up ruining the taste of the beer by adding too much. Just leave it out; you probably won't miss it.

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So if you are brewing a burton ale type kit from a good manufacturer, more than likely they created the extract with the correct water chemistry already in place...that's why we don't have to.

I think Papazian covers this in detail as well.